Re: [microsound] ON TOPIC, or why do men start fires >?<

From Kevin Ponto
Sent Fri, Jul 1st 2005, 02:48

Two snaps and a 'round the world.

k:p


On Jun 30, 2005, at 11:49 AM, bryan garcia wrote:

> "right,  the fuck ,  on"

> <artist>
>
> --- graham miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
>
>
>> THIS is EXACTLY the kind of links that people should
>> be allowed to post here,
>> regardless of list.
>>
>> is is NOT necessarily self-promotion but rather a
>> POTENTIAL BASIS for the
>> kind(s) of philosophical  discussions on music and
>> microsound culture that are
>> supposedly supposed to happen here.
>>
>> how is anyone supposed to discuss anything unless
>> there is some kind of FIRST
>> CAUSE, whether that's a post, a picture or a piece?
>>
>> trying to make it to a gig halfway around the world
>> is one thing...
>>
>> but i'm all for artists posting links to their
>> work...
>>
>> otherwise, you end up with endless debates as to the
>> conversational power of a
>> stoplight...
>>
>> i USED to actually find out information here.  and
>> links would generate
>> discussion. whether it was an article, a  MAX/MSP
>> patch, a new label or piece
>> of software, sounds from space, MP3s, AIFFs, WAVs,
>> MPEGS, WMVs...  i mean,
>> honestly, what the hell does twiki have to do with
>> anything music?  i don't
>> even know what a twiki is, but i'm pretty sure
>> they'd be happier in the wild
>> and not in a cage.
>>
>> this whole no links bullshit (for fear of being
>> BANNED to the furthest reaches
>> of the internet) seems to prioritize the written
>> word, online reading lists, or
>> ink and paper, as the first cause from which
>> discussion is to stem... so
>> fucking university, it's makes me sick.  let's get
>> into actual art itself as
>> the basis for discussion... NOT what's been written
>> about it... i have to deal
>> with that kind of intellectually removed bullshit on
>> a daily basis elsewhere...
>>
>> with these kinds of global online groups there's the
>> potential to engage music,
>> musicians and artist on a GRASSROOTS level... you
>> get the benefit by BYPASSING
>> the record label filters, the publishing company
>> filters, the 'taste' filters,
>> and go straight to the source and dialogue directly
>> with the artists
>> themselves... why aren't we talking advantage of
>> that? why do you think all the
>> musician have left here?
>>
>> why can't people talk about their own work? WTF?
>> it's hard enough for our kind
>> of music to get any kind of recognition as it is...
>>
>> i for one would love to have people like twerk,
>> sutekh, deadbeat back here... i
>> can even deal with taylor dupree's spacebar static
>> just to make everyone happy.
>>
>> i highly doubt john cage is going to post anything
>> here anytime soon... or
>> xenakis or even fucking curtis roads for that
>> matter... let's deal with the
>> artists that are:
>>
>> A) alive
>>
>> B) online
>>
>> C) post here
>>
>> to be honest, the kind of draconian enforcement of
>> some kind ambiguous
>> manifesto drafted to serve the intents of a handful
>> of people (which only post
>> on microsound to remind people NOT to post on
>> microsound) has driven away
>> contribution, NOT encouraged it.  meanwhile it seems
>> fine to have a signature
>> file with a dozen hyperlinks... i have no problem
>> with that and i personally
>> check out everybody's work and find it a great
>> source of encouragement and
>> inspiration.
>>
>> anyway, this has been bugging me for a while and i'd
>> hate to see a new poster
>> chastised for contributing links to their work...
>>
>> i've kept every single microsound post on my
>> computer for the past four years
>> or whatever i've been here... there is definitely a
>> difference and i hardly
>> think the solution is have less posts rather than
>> more...
>>
>> art and artists come first. theory comes later.
>> discussion comes later. that's
>> the way it's always been.
>>
>> let's see more links. and then let's talk about
>> them? cool? cool.
>>
>> graham.
>>
>>
>>
>> Joseph Scott wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I have posted some digital photos that I modified
>>>
>> using basic techniques in
>>
>>> free photo editing software. The photos often
>>>
>> resemble visual equivalents of
>>
>>> microsound works, hence me posting the link here:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> http://pub48.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?usernum=4063395084
>
>>>
>>> If other people on this list are also involved
>>>
>> with innovative visual art
>>
>>> and have works online, please post links on the
>>>
>> list or offlist to me.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 23:38:18 2005
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Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 01:37:39 +0200
From: COSTELLOE Richard <xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: RE: [microsound] re summertime project?
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 FILETIME=[B4747AA0:01C57DCC]

okay, i've put the basics on the twiki page (not very poetic i'm
afraid.) can all those interested add/delete/update/comment as desired.
perhaps we can agree to have the project defined by next week, then post
the official description and get creative! 

http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/SummeR

enjoy


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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 23:25:46 2005
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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:25:39 +0000
From: bobby whn <xxxx_xxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] OT? Modified Photos = ON TOPIC
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 FILETIME=[071C5EA0:01C57DCB]


i have a fairly mellow maxpatch , if you have max and a contact mic its 
quite fun to just leave it going
for a while, it feeds back and modulates the feedback when it reaches a 
certain level, like a mini
installation in yr bedroom or whatever. i stuck it on _you send it_ as text 
in a word document,
as far as im aware its cool just to copy the link on here and you can 
download it if you want . enjoy!

http://s21.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=364IJX2YGKHDR0LPMK9EVFIIGL

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 22:42:36 2005
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Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 00:42:27 +0200
From: michael beijer <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] i agree with graham - our links are an important and
 necessary part of this list
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i also go check out your links
and then get ideas from them
-m

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 22:25:53 2005
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Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 00:25:41 +0200
From: michael beijer <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] re summertime project?
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i'm in!
i've never posted before
but have been carefully reading most of what goes on here
and am already getting to work on THE SOUNDS OF THE SUMMER

-michaelbeijer

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 21:37:15 2005
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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:35:59 -0700
From: roberth <xxxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] OT? Modified Photos = ON TOPIC
To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
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except you have started a discussion about it.
i think its a good idea. i like to associate people's music
with their posts.
robert horton
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Nisi" <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: [microsound] OT? Modified Photos = ON TOPIC


nicely put, graham.

how about posting our latest recordings for a start - an audible 
werkstattbrief.

about 20 minutes ago I've recorded this:
http://michaelnisi.com/tmp/scape.mp3

post your stuff (and get banned) :)

regards,
michael

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 21:11:58 2005
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From: john saylor <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
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hi

On 6/30/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> Bjorn set up the wiki page for the project:
> http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/SummeR

i don't think attachments will work on this page right now. if it gets
to be time to upload files, lemme know and i will do the sysadmin
stuff that needs to be done to allow for file uploads on this page [or
another one, if the project needs it].

the results of the project can be put on the .microsound web server,
but that usually happens after the project is closed.

-- 
\js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 20:21:27 2005
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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:21:09 -0700
From: Jorge Bachmann <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] OT? Modified Photos = ON TOPIC
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I back you up 100%,

Lately I was thinking about that... I'm glad you expressed

paz
J21

On Jun 30, 2005, at 11:01 AM, graham miller wrote:

> THIS is EXACTLY the kind of links that people should be allowed to 
> post here,
> regardless of list.
>
> is is NOT necessarily self-promotion but rather a POTENTIAL BASIS for 
> the
> kind(s) of philosophical  discussions on music and microsound culture 
> that are
> supposedly supposed to happen here.
>
> how is anyone supposed to discuss anything unless there is some kind 
> of FIRST
> CAUSE, whether that's a post, a picture or a piece?
>
> trying to make it to a gig halfway around the world is one thing...
>
> but i'm all for artists posting links to their work...
>
> otherwise, you end up with endless debates as to the conversational 
> power of a
> stoplight...
>
> i USED to actually find out information here.  and links would generate
> discussion. whether it was an article, a  MAX/MSP patch, a new label 
> or piece
> of software, sounds from space, MP3s, AIFFs, WAVs, MPEGS, WMVs...  i 
> mean,
> honestly, what the hell does twiki have to do with anything music?  i 
> don't
> even know what a twiki is, but i'm pretty sure they'd be happier in 
> the wild
> and not in a cage.
>
> this whole no links bullshit (for fear of being BANNED to the furthest 
> reaches
> of the internet) seems to prioritize the written word, online reading 
> lists, or
> ink and paper, as the first cause from which discussion is to stem... 
> so
> fucking university, it's makes me sick.  let's get into actual art 
> itself as
> the basis for discussion... NOT what's been written about it... i have 
> to deal
> with that kind of intellectually removed bullshit on a daily basis 
> elsewhere...
>
> with these kinds of global online groups there's the potential to 
> engage music,
> musicians and artist on a GRASSROOTS level... you get the benefit by 
> BYPASSING
> the record label filters, the publishing company filters, the 'taste' 
> filters,
> and go straight to the source and dialogue directly with the artists
> themselves... why aren't we talking advantage of that? why do you 
> think all the
> musician have left here?
>
> why can't people talk about their own work? WTF? it's hard enough for 
> our kind
> of music to get any kind of recognition as it is...
>
> i for one would love to have people like twerk, sutekh, deadbeat back 
> here... i
> can even deal with taylor dupree's spacebar static just to make 
> everyone happy.
>
> i highly doubt john cage is going to post anything here anytime 
> soon... or
> xenakis or even fucking curtis roads for that matter... let's deal 
> with the
> artists that are:
>
> A) alive
>
> B) online
>
> C) post here
>
> to be honest, the kind of draconian enforcement of some kind ambiguous
> manifesto drafted to serve the intents of a handful of people (which 
> only post
> on microsound to remind people NOT to post on microsound) has driven 
> away
> contribution, NOT encouraged it.  meanwhile it seems fine to have a 
> signature
> file with a dozen hyperlinks... i have no problem with that and i 
> personally
> check out everybody's work and find it a great source of encouragement 
> and
> inspiration.
>
> anyway, this has been bugging me for a while and i'd hate to see a new 
> poster
> chastised for contributing links to their work...
>
> i've kept every single microsound post on my computer for the past 
> four years
> or whatever i've been here... there is definitely a difference and i 
> hardly
> think the solution is have less posts rather than more...
>
> art and artists come first. theory comes later. discussion comes 
> later. that's
> the way it's always been.
>
> let's see more links. and then let's talk about them? cool? cool.
>
> graham.
>
>
>
> Joseph Scott wrote:
>
>> I have posted some digital photos that I modified using basic 
>> techniques in
>> free photo editing software. The photos often resemble visual 
>> equivalents of
>> microsound works, hence me posting the link here:
>>
>> http://pub48.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?usernum=4063395084
>>
>> If other people on this list are also involved with innovative visual 
>> art
>> and have works online, please post links on the list or offlist to me.
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
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>
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>
>
>
justino
aka jorge bachmann                                sculpture-photography-sound
P.O.Box 15953
San Francisco, CA 94115-0953
M-415-706-9629                                        http://anihilo.com
W-415-750-3517                                        http://ruidobello.org


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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 20:04:03 2005
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nicely put, graham.

how about posting our latest recordings for a start - an audible werkstattbrief.

about 20 minutes ago I've recorded this:
http://michaelnisi.com/tmp/scape.mp3

post your stuff (and get banned) :)

regards,
michael

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 19:59:06 2005
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Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
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I'd be happy to participate in this project. Perhaps some of the other 
Thinboxers are interested as well.

As far as the facilitation of said project, I think Nick's offer seems 
good and generous - I would be happy to help with whatever I can also.

Cheers

Chris McNamara


On Jun 30, 2005, at 2:00 PM, David Powers wrote:

> This sounds great to me...  I'm not really set up for field recording, 
> but would love to do work on a microsound piece if others would make 
> their samples available - whether "summer" or not, and regardless of 
> hemisphere.
>
> ~David
>
> nick knouf wrote:
>
>> Hmm, no movement on this for nearly a week...
>>
>> I'm not sure if there is a person "in charge" of this project; maybe
>> the thread starter?  I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but
>> if nobody else is interested in taking charge, I'd be interested/able
>> to...
>>
>> We seem to have a fairly wide range of options, but one of the
>> overarching themes (as I read it) is using the sounds of your locale
>> as the basis of a composition.  For many, that might be the sounds of
>> insects, of people jumping into a swimming pool, of thunder.  For
>> others, the sound of cold rain, of boots in the snow, of rustling
>> leaves.  (pardon me if those sounds are completely out of whack for
>> those of you in the southern hemisphere; i'm basing it on my knowledge
>> of winter in the northern hemisphere)
>>
>> So it seems to me that what we should do is first collect the sounds
>> of "summer" (and if you're interested/willing, provide those sounds by
>> hosting them/linking to them from the wiki) and then work those into a
>> composition of your own desire.  At the end of the summer we upload
>> the files for everyone to enjoy, and perhaps, given the interest,
>> provide a CD to those who wish one.
>>
>> Now, maybe I've completely misrepresented people's desires here, but
>> if not, does this sound like a good point of departure for the
>> project?
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> nick
>>
>>
>> On 6/24/05, //jonCates <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott C
>>>
>>> snds fantastic
>>>
>>> in support of sandy slippage + pouring snd into snd via summer
>>>
>>> // jonCates
>>> # http://www.r4wb1t5.org
>>> # http://www.criticalartware.net
>>> # http://www.systemsapproach.net
>>>
>>> On Jun 18, 2005, at 7:42 PM, Scott Carver wrote:
>>>
>>>> In the interest of being outside and actually appreciating summer
>>>> while it's around, what about something performed live, outside,
>>>> perhaps using sounds from the location of performance? Pick a 
>>>> outdoor
>>>> location and a time (hopefully a time when it's appropriately
>>>> summer-ish), and perform a piece, in whatever sense of 'perform' is
>>>> appropriate and interesting. Screw sitting around in my house with
>>>> headphones on, if I'm going to do a summer project, I want to make
>>>> sounds so inextricably entangled with summer they can't be 
>>>> separated,
>>>> summer and sound pouring into each other until the mixture is
>>>> impossible to separate.
>>>>
>>>> - Scott C.
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>


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i agree with graham.
makes it more real less heady.
r
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "graham miller" <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 11:01 AM
Subject: [microsound] OT? Modified Photos = ON TOPIC


> THIS is EXACTLY the kind of links that people should be allowed to post 
> here,
> regardless of list.
>
> is is NOT necessarily self-promotion but rather a POTENTIAL BASIS for the
> kind(s) of philosophical  discussions on music and microsound culture that 
> are
> supposedly supposed to happen here.
>
> how is anyone supposed to discuss anything unless there is some kind of 
> FIRST
> CAUSE, whether that's a post, a picture or a piece?
>
> trying to make it to a gig halfway around the world is one thing...
>
> but i'm all for artists posting links to their work...
>
> otherwise, you end up with endless debates as to the conversational power 
> of a
> stoplight...
>
> i USED to actually find out information here.  and links would generate
> discussion. whether it was an article, a  MAX/MSP patch, a new label or 
> piece
> of software, sounds from space, MP3s, AIFFs, WAVs, MPEGS, WMVs...  i mean,
> honestly, what the hell does twiki have to do with anything music?  i 
> don't
> even know what a twiki is, but i'm pretty sure they'd be happier in the 
> wild
> and not in a cage.
>
> this whole no links bullshit (for fear of being BANNED to the furthest 
> reaches
> of the internet) seems to prioritize the written word, online reading 
> lists, or
> ink and paper, as the first cause from which discussion is to stem... so
> fucking university, it's makes me sick.  let's get into actual art itself 
> as
> the basis for discussion... NOT what's been written about it... i have to 
> deal
> with that kind of intellectually removed bullshit on a daily basis 
> elsewhere...
>
> with these kinds of global online groups there's the potential to engage 
> music,
> musicians and artist on a GRASSROOTS level... you get the benefit by 
> BYPASSING
> the record label filters, the publishing company filters, the 'taste' 
> filters,
> and go straight to the source and dialogue directly with the artists
> themselves... why aren't we talking advantage of that? why do you think 
> all the
> musician have left here?
>
> why can't people talk about their own work? WTF? it's hard enough for our 
> kind
> of music to get any kind of recognition as it is...
>
> i for one would love to have people like twerk, sutekh, deadbeat back 
> here... i
> can even deal with taylor dupree's spacebar static just to make everyone 
> happy.
>
> i highly doubt john cage is going to post anything here anytime soon... or
> xenakis or even fucking curtis roads for that matter... let's deal with 
> the
> artists that are:
>
> A) alive
>
> B) online
>
> C) post here
>
> to be honest, the kind of draconian enforcement of some kind ambiguous
> manifesto drafted to serve the intents of a handful of people (which only 
> post
> on microsound to remind people NOT to post on microsound) has driven away
> contribution, NOT encouraged it.  meanwhile it seems fine to have a 
> signature
> file with a dozen hyperlinks... i have no problem with that and i 
> personally
> check out everybody's work and find it a great source of encouragement and
> inspiration.
>
> anyway, this has been bugging me for a while and i'd hate to see a new 
> poster
> chastised for contributing links to their work...
>
> i've kept every single microsound post on my computer for the past four 
> years
> or whatever i've been here... there is definitely a difference and i 
> hardly
> think the solution is have less posts rather than more...
>
> art and artists come first. theory comes later. discussion comes later. 
> that's
> the way it's always been.
>
> let's see more links. and then let's talk about them? cool? cool.
>
> graham.
>
>
>
> Joseph Scott wrote:
>
>> I have posted some digital photos that I modified using basic techniques 
>> in
>> free photo editing software. The photos often resemble visual equivalents 
>> of
>> microsound works, hence me posting the link here:
>>
>> http://pub48.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?usernum=4063395084
>>
>> If other people on this list are also involved with innovative visual art
>> and have works online, please post links on the list or offlist to me.
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now!
>> http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/
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>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>
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> 


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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 18:49:54 2005
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Subject: [microsound] ON TOPIC, or why do men start fires >?<
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"right,  the fuck ,  on"  


<artist>  





--- graham miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:

> THIS is EXACTLY the kind of links that people should
> be allowed to post here,
> regardless of list.
> 
> is is NOT necessarily self-promotion but rather a
> POTENTIAL BASIS for the
> kind(s) of philosophical  discussions on music and
> microsound culture that are
> supposedly supposed to happen here.
> 
> how is anyone supposed to discuss anything unless
> there is some kind of FIRST
> CAUSE, whether that's a post, a picture or a piece?
> 
> trying to make it to a gig halfway around the world
> is one thing...
> 
> but i'm all for artists posting links to their
> work...
> 
> otherwise, you end up with endless debates as to the
> conversational power of a
> stoplight...
> 
> i USED to actually find out information here.  and
> links would generate
> discussion. whether it was an article, a  MAX/MSP
> patch, a new label or piece
> of software, sounds from space, MP3s, AIFFs, WAVs,
> MPEGS, WMVs...  i mean,
> honestly, what the hell does twiki have to do with
> anything music?  i don't
> even know what a twiki is, but i'm pretty sure
> they'd be happier in the wild
> and not in a cage.
> 
> this whole no links bullshit (for fear of being
> BANNED to the furthest reaches
> of the internet) seems to prioritize the written
> word, online reading lists, or
> ink and paper, as the first cause from which
> discussion is to stem... so
> fucking university, it's makes me sick.  let's get
> into actual art itself as
> the basis for discussion... NOT what's been written
> about it... i have to deal
> with that kind of intellectually removed bullshit on
> a daily basis elsewhere...
> 
> with these kinds of global online groups there's the
> potential to engage music,
> musicians and artist on a GRASSROOTS level... you
> get the benefit by BYPASSING
> the record label filters, the publishing company
> filters, the 'taste' filters,
> and go straight to the source and dialogue directly
> with the artists
> themselves... why aren't we talking advantage of
> that? why do you think all the
> musician have left here?
> 
> why can't people talk about their own work? WTF?
> it's hard enough for our kind
> of music to get any kind of recognition as it is...
> 
> i for one would love to have people like twerk,
> sutekh, deadbeat back here... i
> can even deal with taylor dupree's spacebar static
> just to make everyone happy.
> 
> i highly doubt john cage is going to post anything
> here anytime soon... or
> xenakis or even fucking curtis roads for that
> matter... let's deal with the
> artists that are:
> 
> A) alive
> 
> B) online
> 
> C) post here
> 
> to be honest, the kind of draconian enforcement of
> some kind ambiguous
> manifesto drafted to serve the intents of a handful
> of people (which only post
> on microsound to remind people NOT to post on
> microsound) has driven away
> contribution, NOT encouraged it.  meanwhile it seems
> fine to have a signature
> file with a dozen hyperlinks... i have no problem
> with that and i personally
> check out everybody's work and find it a great
> source of encouragement and
> inspiration.
> 
> anyway, this has been bugging me for a while and i'd
> hate to see a new poster
> chastised for contributing links to their work...
> 
> i've kept every single microsound post on my
> computer for the past four years
> or whatever i've been here... there is definitely a
> difference and i hardly
> think the solution is have less posts rather than
> more...
> 
> art and artists come first. theory comes later.
> discussion comes later. that's
> the way it's always been.
> 
> let's see more links. and then let's talk about
> them? cool? cool.
> 
> graham.
> 
> 
> 
> Joseph Scott wrote:
> 
> > I have posted some digital photos that I modified
> using basic techniques in
> > free photo editing software. The photos often
> resemble visual equivalents of
> > microsound works, hence me posting the link here:
> >
> >
>
http://pub48.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?usernum=4063395084
> >
> > If other people on this list are also involved
> with innovative visual art
> > and have works online, please post links on the
> list or offlist to me.
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
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> >
> >
>
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> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> 
> 
>
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> 



                
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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 18:02:42 2005
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From: graham miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] OT? Modified Photos = ON TOPIC
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THIS is EXACTLY the kind of links that people should be allowed to post here,
regardless of list.

is is NOT necessarily self-promotion but rather a POTENTIAL BASIS for the
kind(s) of philosophical  discussions on music and microsound culture that are
supposedly supposed to happen here.

how is anyone supposed to discuss anything unless there is some kind of FIRST
CAUSE, whether that's a post, a picture or a piece?

trying to make it to a gig halfway around the world is one thing...

but i'm all for artists posting links to their work...

otherwise, you end up with endless debates as to the conversational power of a
stoplight...

i USED to actually find out information here.  and links would generate
discussion. whether it was an article, a  MAX/MSP patch, a new label or piece
of software, sounds from space, MP3s, AIFFs, WAVs, MPEGS, WMVs...  i mean,
honestly, what the hell does twiki have to do with anything music?  i don't
even know what a twiki is, but i'm pretty sure they'd be happier in the wild
and not in a cage.

this whole no links bullshit (for fear of being BANNED to the furthest reaches
of the internet) seems to prioritize the written word, online reading lists, or
ink and paper, as the first cause from which discussion is to stem... so
fucking university, it's makes me sick.  let's get into actual art itself as
the basis for discussion... NOT what's been written about it... i have to deal
with that kind of intellectually removed bullshit on a daily basis elsewhere...

with these kinds of global online groups there's the potential to engage music,
musicians and artist on a GRASSROOTS level... you get the benefit by BYPASSING
the record label filters, the publishing company filters, the 'taste' filters,
and go straight to the source and dialogue directly with the artists
themselves... why aren't we talking advantage of that? why do you think all the
musician have left here?

why can't people talk about their own work? WTF? it's hard enough for our kind
of music to get any kind of recognition as it is...

i for one would love to have people like twerk, sutekh, deadbeat back here... i
can even deal with taylor dupree's spacebar static just to make everyone happy.

i highly doubt john cage is going to post anything here anytime soon... or
xenakis or even fucking curtis roads for that matter... let's deal with the
artists that are:

A) alive

B) online

C) post here

to be honest, the kind of draconian enforcement of some kind ambiguous
manifesto drafted to serve the intents of a handful of people (which only post
on microsound to remind people NOT to post on microsound) has driven away
contribution, NOT encouraged it.  meanwhile it seems fine to have a signature
file with a dozen hyperlinks... i have no problem with that and i personally
check out everybody's work and find it a great source of encouragement and
inspiration.

anyway, this has been bugging me for a while and i'd hate to see a new poster
chastised for contributing links to their work...

i've kept every single microsound post on my computer for the past four years
or whatever i've been here... there is definitely a difference and i hardly
think the solution is have less posts rather than more...

art and artists come first. theory comes later. discussion comes later. that's
the way it's always been.

let's see more links. and then let's talk about them? cool? cool.

graham.



Joseph Scott wrote:

> I have posted some digital photos that I modified using basic techniques in
> free photo editing software. The photos often resemble visual equivalents of
> microsound works, hence me posting the link here:
>
> http://pub48.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?usernum=4063395084
>
> If other people on this list are also involved with innovative visual art
> and have works online, please post links on the list or offlist to me.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now!
> http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/
>
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> website: http://www.microsound.org


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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 18:00:57 2005
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Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
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--Boundary_(ID_gv+askzzA6T5CfkRzfJ/9w)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This sounds great to me...  I'm not really set up for field recording, 
but would love to do work on a microsound piece if others would make 
their samples available - whether "summer" or not, and regardless of 
hemisphere.

~David

nick knouf wrote:

>Hmm, no movement on this for nearly a week...
>
>I'm not sure if there is a person "in charge" of this project; maybe
>the thread starter?  I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but
>if nobody else is interested in taking charge, I'd be interested/able
>to...
>
>We seem to have a fairly wide range of options, but one of the
>overarching themes (as I read it) is using the sounds of your locale
>as the basis of a composition.  For many, that might be the sounds of
>insects, of people jumping into a swimming pool, of thunder.  For
>others, the sound of cold rain, of boots in the snow, of rustling
>leaves.  (pardon me if those sounds are completely out of whack for
>those of you in the southern hemisphere; i'm basing it on my knowledge
>of winter in the northern hemisphere)
>
>So it seems to me that what we should do is first collect the sounds
>of "summer" (and if you're interested/willing, provide those sounds by
>hosting them/linking to them from the wiki) and then work those into a
>composition of your own desire.  At the end of the summer we upload
>the files for everyone to enjoy, and perhaps, given the interest,
>provide a CD to those who wish one.
>
>Now, maybe I've completely misrepresented people's desires here, but
>if not, does this sound like a good point of departure for the
>project?
>
>cheers,
>
>nick
>
>
>On 6/24/05, //jonCates <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>  
>
>>Scott C
>>
>>snds fantastic
>>
>>in support of sandy slippage + pouring snd into snd via summer
>>
>>// jonCates
>># http://www.r4wb1t5.org
>># http://www.criticalartware.net
>># http://www.systemsapproach.net
>>
>>On Jun 18, 2005, at 7:42 PM, Scott Carver wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>In the interest of being outside and actually appreciating summer
>>>while it's around, what about something performed live, outside,
>>>perhaps using sounds from the location of performance? Pick a outdoor
>>>location and a time (hopefully a time when it's appropriately
>>>summer-ish), and perform a piece, in whatever sense of 'perform' is
>>>appropriate and interesting. Screw sitting around in my house with
>>>headphones on, if I'm going to do a summer project, I want to make
>>>sounds so inextricably entangled with summer they can't be separated,
>>>summer and sound pouring into each other until the mixture is
>>>impossible to separate.
>>>
>>>- Scott C.
>>>      
>>>
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>>
>>    
>>
>
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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 14:00:19 2005
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From: nick knouf <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] OT: Modified Photos
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For those of you interested in this sort of "databending", there's a
list called, appropriately enough, databenders.  A member recently
posted a rather large amount of bent photoshop PSD and jpeg files;
I've included the message below.

cheers,

nick


From: stAllio! <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Reply-To: xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
To: xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Date: Jun 27, 2005 4:27 PM
Subject: [databenders] massive new bent image gallery

i've been working on this for a few weeks now, and i'm ready to launch
it to the public:

the new stAllio! image-bending gallery:
http://www.animalswithinanimals.com/bent/

this is the new home for my databent image work, and i kick it off with
a massive new RRX gallery. this new gallery includes a bunch of new
bent JPEG files (about 23 actual bent jpeg files and at least two
screencaps of each), so if you enjoyed last month's bollybend
experiment, you will enjoy this up to 23x more. beyond that, there are
more than 100 images created by bending PSD files. so when i say it's
massive, you know i mean it.

also, the classic RR8 gallery has been expanded as well as galleryized
so you can easily browse through it by looking through thumbnails.

--
I've never thought of it like that before. But I'm going to go with,
"no, it is not strange to eat your own parasite."
http://www.animalswithinanimals.com
http://badtastesucks.com

On 6/30/05, Joseph Scott <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> I have posted some digital photos that I modified using basic techniques in
> free photo editing software. The photos often resemble visual equivalents of
> microsound works, hence me posting the link here:
> 
> http://pub48.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?usernum=4063395084
> 
> If other people on this list are also involved with innovative visual art
> and have works online, please post links on the list or offlist to me.
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now!
> http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/
> 
> 
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saving bandwidth sounds like a plan and don't forget to breathe, man.

sorry,
michael

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 12:16:00 2005
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I don't think real time chat is more scary than an ordinary phone call or a 
real chat/talk. Real time chat sometimes has the advantages of getting fast 
solutions to practical problems. Maybe it is not ideal for a lot else.

The different situations at hand has different needs and different ways to 
communicate.

/Björn Eriksson

> etc... It is also possible that people do not want to interact in real 
> time and their reticence is not a case of being too lazy to participate. 
> The material I have contributed to this thread is in an attempt to get 
> people to consider the experiences of others who have gone down these 
> paths, rather than behave as if they know it all, or that  the experiences 
> of others are irrelevant.
>
> or indeed taking up list bandwidth with obtuse in-jokes which make sense 
> to the poster but to no one else.
>
> julian
>
>
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On 30/06/2005, at 5:58 PM, Michael Nisi wrote:

> haha, yeah more real and shit - sounds familiar. like painting your
> toe nails black and feeling your strengthened personality through it.
> like producing weak sounding music and label it underground.

i'm not sure i get this reply... and how it contributes to the 
discussion on the list. It sounds like someone with issues...

the material i posted was a report from someone else (earlier in the 
thread) who is running real time chat for a list not dissimilar to 
this. His observation was that most people do not like real time chat, 
or at least are reluctant to take the interactions from these spaces 
into that context. Real time chat appeals to stronger personalities and 
not to all.  Your surprise at the small number of participants in your 
irc channel is therefore not a surprise for others who have tried a 
similar thing... there are also quite pragmatic issues like time zones 
etc... It is also possible that people do not want to interact in real 
time and their reticence is not a case of being too lazy to 
participate. The material I have contributed to this thread is in an 
attempt to get people to consider the experiences of others who have 
gone down these paths, rather than behave as if they know it all, or 
that  the experiences of others are irrelevant.

or indeed taking up list bandwidth with obtuse in-jokes which make 
sense to the poster but to no one else.

julian


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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 09:33:15 2005
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Subject: [microsound] OT: Modified Photos
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 FILETIME=[B773DB90:01C57D56]

I have posted some digital photos that I modified using basic techniques in 
free photo editing software. The photos often resemble visual equivalents of 
microsound works, hence me posting the link here:

http://pub48.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?usernum=4063395084

If other people on this list are also involved with innovative visual art 
and have works online, please post links on the list or offlist to me.

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Subject: RE: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
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 FILETIME=[9228B9E0:01C57D52]

I'll post the project basics so far on the twiki later today. We can use this to formulate a clear project plan & deadline. 

Also, I'd more than happy to do the webpage for this - how has this been done in the past? I'm not sure how/where the .microsound web is hosted. 

When is the official end of summer? (Not that I'm anxious for it!)  


-----Original Message-----
From: Björn Eriksson [mailto:xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xx] 
Sent: 30 June 2005 09:50
To: microsound
Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?

Coffe or not, the TWiki page is there ready for anyone to just fill in. The 
next stage would actually be to just get this thing rolling. When we come to 
deadline (in end of summer?)  there maybe is someone willing to design a 
nice webpage too?

/Björn


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Nisi" <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?


we where?

oh god, give me coffee...

sorry,
michael

On 6/30/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> hi,
>
> we where discussing this last night:
> irc://irc.freenode.org/microsound
>
> Bjorn set up the wiki page for the project:
> http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/SummeR
>
> step in.
>
> regards,
> michael
>
> http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/SummeR
>
> On 6/30/05, xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx> wrote:
> > Hi Nick and all,
> >
> > I have been working on a piece called 'memory of summer' - what
> > interests me is creating a track based around summer only from memory
> > (as someone suggested before). I will also work on a piece more locally
> > based in Australia's winter...
> >
> > I really like the ideas that this project has brought up and it would be
> > great to have it coordinated. Perhaps you and I could nut out some
> > project guidelines and get people to post their tracks on the hotline
> > server/twiki? Email me with suggestions..
> >
> > Who actually did start this thread?? :)
> >
> > Simon.
> >
> > Symbiosis
> > Sunday nights, 12am - 2am
> > 102.7 FM / www.rrr.org.au
> > Melbourne, Australia
> >
> > xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx
> >
> >
> > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
> > > From: nick knouf <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> > > Date: Thu, June 30, 2005 2:28 pm
> > > To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> > >
> > > Hmm, no movement on this for nearly a week...
> > >
> > > I'm not sure if there is a person "in charge" of this project; maybe
> > > the thread starter?  I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but
> > > if nobody else is interested in taking charge, I'd be interested/able
> > > to...
> > >
> > > We seem to have a fairly wide range of options, but one of the
> > > overarching themes (as I read it) is using the sounds of your locale
> > > as the basis of a composition.  For many, that might be the sounds of
> > > insects, of people jumping into a swimming pool, of thunder.  For
> > > others, the sound of cold rain, of boots in the snow, of rustling
> > > leaves.  (pardon me if those sounds are completely out of whack for
> > > those of you in the southern hemisphere; i'm basing it on my knowledge
> > > of winter in the northern hemisphere)
> > >
> > > So it seems to me that what we should do is first collect the sounds
> > > of "summer" (and if you're interested/willing, provide those sounds by
> > > hosting them/linking to them from the wiki) and then work those into a
> > > composition of your own desire.  At the end of the summer we upload
> > > the files for everyone to enjoy, and perhaps, given the interest,
> > > provide a CD to those who wish one.
> > >
> > > Now, maybe I've completely misrepresented people's desires here, but
> > > if not, does this sound like a good point of departure for the
> > > project?
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > >
> > > nick
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> >
> >
>

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 08:54:45 2005
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Coffe or not, the TWiki page is there ready for anyone to just fill in. The 
next stage would actually be to just get this thing rolling. When we come to 
deadline (in end of summer?)  there maybe is someone willing to design a 
nice webpage too?

/Björn


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Nisi" <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?


we where?

oh god, give me coffee...

sorry,
michael

On 6/30/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> hi,
>
> we where discussing this last night:
> irc://irc.freenode.org/microsound
>
> Bjorn set up the wiki page for the project:
> http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/SummeR
>
> step in.
>
> regards,
> michael
>
> http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/SummeR
>
> On 6/30/05, xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx> wrote:
> > Hi Nick and all,
> >
> > I have been working on a piece called 'memory of summer' - what
> > interests me is creating a track based around summer only from memory
> > (as someone suggested before). I will also work on a piece more locally
> > based in Australia's winter...
> >
> > I really like the ideas that this project has brought up and it would be
> > great to have it coordinated. Perhaps you and I could nut out some
> > project guidelines and get people to post their tracks on the hotline
> > server/twiki? Email me with suggestions..
> >
> > Who actually did start this thread?? :)
> >
> > Simon.
> >
> > Symbiosis
> > Sunday nights, 12am - 2am
> > 102.7 FM / www.rrr.org.au
> > Melbourne, Australia
> >
> > xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx
> >
> >
> > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
> > > From: nick knouf <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> > > Date: Thu, June 30, 2005 2:28 pm
> > > To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> > >
> > > Hmm, no movement on this for nearly a week...
> > >
> > > I'm not sure if there is a person "in charge" of this project; maybe
> > > the thread starter?  I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but
> > > if nobody else is interested in taking charge, I'd be interested/able
> > > to...
> > >
> > > We seem to have a fairly wide range of options, but one of the
> > > overarching themes (as I read it) is using the sounds of your locale
> > > as the basis of a composition.  For many, that might be the sounds of
> > > insects, of people jumping into a swimming pool, of thunder.  For
> > > others, the sound of cold rain, of boots in the snow, of rustling
> > > leaves.  (pardon me if those sounds are completely out of whack for
> > > those of you in the southern hemisphere; i'm basing it on my knowledge
> > > of winter in the northern hemisphere)
> > >
> > > So it seems to me that what we should do is first collect the sounds
> > > of "summer" (and if you're interested/willing, provide those sounds by
> > > hosting them/linking to them from the wiki) and then work those into a
> > > composition of your own desire.  At the end of the summer we upload
> > > the files for everyone to enjoy, and perhaps, given the interest,
> > > provide a CD to those who wish one.
> > >
> > > Now, maybe I've completely misrepresented people's desires here, but
> > > if not, does this sound like a good point of departure for the
> > > project?
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > >
> > > nick
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> >
> >
>

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 08:13:30 2005
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From: Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
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we where?

oh god, give me coffee...

sorry,
michael

On 6/30/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> hi,
> 
> we where discussing this last night:
> irc://irc.freenode.org/microsound
> 
> Bjorn set up the wiki page for the project:
> http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/SummeR
> 
> step in.
> 
> regards,
> michael
> 
> http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/SummeR
> 
> On 6/30/05, xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx> wrote:
> > Hi Nick and all,
> >
> > I have been working on a piece called 'memory of summer' - what
> > interests me is creating a track based around summer only from memory
> > (as someone suggested before). I will also work on a piece more locally
> > based in Australia's winter...
> >
> > I really like the ideas that this project has brought up and it would be
> > great to have it coordinated. Perhaps you and I could nut out some
> > project guidelines and get people to post their tracks on the hotline
> > server/twiki? Email me with suggestions..
> >
> > Who actually did start this thread?? :)
> >
> > Simon.
> >
> > Symbiosis
> > Sunday nights, 12am - 2am
> > 102.7 FM / www.rrr.org.au
> > Melbourne, Australia
> >
> > xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx
> >
> >
> > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
> > > From: nick knouf <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> > > Date: Thu, June 30, 2005 2:28 pm
> > > To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> > >
> > > Hmm, no movement on this for nearly a week...
> > >
> > > I'm not sure if there is a person "in charge" of this project; maybe
> > > the thread starter?  I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but
> > > if nobody else is interested in taking charge, I'd be interested/able
> > > to...
> > >
> > > We seem to have a fairly wide range of options, but one of the
> > > overarching themes (as I read it) is using the sounds of your locale
> > > as the basis of a composition.  For many, that might be the sounds of
> > > insects, of people jumping into a swimming pool, of thunder.  For
> > > others, the sound of cold rain, of boots in the snow, of rustling
> > > leaves.  (pardon me if those sounds are completely out of whack for
> > > those of you in the southern hemisphere; i'm basing it on my knowledge
> > > of winter in the northern hemisphere)
> > >
> > > So it seems to me that what we should do is first collect the sounds
> > > of "summer" (and if you're interested/willing, provide those sounds by
> > > hosting them/linking to them from the wiki) and then work those into a
> > > composition of your own desire.  At the end of the summer we upload
> > > the files for everyone to enjoy, and perhaps, given the interest,
> > > provide a CD to those who wish one.
> > >
> > > Now, maybe I've completely misrepresented people's desires here, but
> > > if not, does this sound like a good point of departure for the
> > > project?
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > >
> > > nick
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> >
> >
>

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 08:07:26 2005
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hi,

we where discussing this last night:
irc://irc.freenode.org/microsound

Bjorn set up the wiki page for the project:
http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/SummeR

step in.

regards,
michael

http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/SummeR

On 6/30/05, xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx> wrote:
> Hi Nick and all,
> 
> I have been working on a piece called 'memory of summer' - what
> interests me is creating a track based around summer only from memory
> (as someone suggested before). I will also work on a piece more locally
> based in Australia's winter...
> 
> I really like the ideas that this project has brought up and it would be
> great to have it coordinated. Perhaps you and I could nut out some
> project guidelines and get people to post their tracks on the hotline
> server/twiki? Email me with suggestions..
> 
> Who actually did start this thread?? :)
> 
> Simon.
> 
> Symbiosis
> Sunday nights, 12am - 2am
> 102.7 FM / www.rrr.org.au
> Melbourne, Australia
> 
> xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx
> 
> 
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
> > From: nick knouf <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> > Date: Thu, June 30, 2005 2:28 pm
> > To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> >
> > Hmm, no movement on this for nearly a week...
> >
> > I'm not sure if there is a person "in charge" of this project; maybe
> > the thread starter?  I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but
> > if nobody else is interested in taking charge, I'd be interested/able
> > to...
> >
> > We seem to have a fairly wide range of options, but one of the
> > overarching themes (as I read it) is using the sounds of your locale
> > as the basis of a composition.  For many, that might be the sounds of
> > insects, of people jumping into a swimming pool, of thunder.  For
> > others, the sound of cold rain, of boots in the snow, of rustling
> > leaves.  (pardon me if those sounds are completely out of whack for
> > those of you in the southern hemisphere; i'm basing it on my knowledge
> > of winter in the northern hemisphere)
> >
> > So it seems to me that what we should do is first collect the sounds
> > of "summer" (and if you're interested/willing, provide those sounds by
> > hosting them/linking to them from the wiki) and then work those into a
> > composition of your own desire.  At the end of the summer we upload
> > the files for everyone to enjoy, and perhaps, given the interest,
> > provide a CD to those who wish one.
> >
> > Now, maybe I've completely misrepresented people's desires here, but
> > if not, does this sound like a good point of departure for the
> > project?
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > nick
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
> 
>

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 08:05:30 2005
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From: COSTELLOE Richard <xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: RE: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
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 FILETIME=[66123B90:01C57D4A]

Hi, thread-starter here... I've been, er, researching summer in Spain
for the past week so just catching up with the discussions now... didn't
mean 
to leave it hanging. 

I like Nick's idea of collecting sounds independently for a period,
sharing them, then using them for our compositions. (That's how I
understand it anyway) - in a more collaborative vein we could also
upload our summer tracks first, then remix each's others up, though this
could be messy ; ) 

There was mention of using synthetic sounds rather than/in combination
with 
ambient samples. It seems perfectly legitimate to gather sounds from any
source that we feel represents or reflects the essence of "summer." 

So, as Simon suggests, a few of us could mesh out some details then
officially present the project to the group. I haven't read what is up
with the hotline discussion (the client never worked for me) - but I'm
know we can find server space as needed.

Hope I didn't overlook any good ideas!! 

- R.Diddy




-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx [mailto:xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx] 
Sent: 30 June 2005 05:56
To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: RE: [microsound] RE: summertime project?

Hi Nick and all,

I have been working on a piece called 'memory of summer' - what
interests me is creating a track based around summer only from memory
(as someone suggested before). I will also work on a piece more locally
based in Australia's winter...

I really like the ideas that this project has brought up and it would be
great to have it coordinated. Perhaps you and I could nut out some
project guidelines and get people to post their tracks on the hotline
server/twiki? Email me with suggestions..

Who actually did start this thread?? :)

Simon.

Symbiosis
Sunday nights, 12am - 2am
102.7 FM / www.rrr.org.au
Melbourne, Australia

xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx


> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
> From: nick knouf <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> Date: Thu, June 30, 2005 2:28 pm
> To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> 
> Hmm, no movement on this for nearly a week...
> 
> I'm not sure if there is a person "in charge" of this project; maybe
> the thread starter?  I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but
> if nobody else is interested in taking charge, I'd be interested/able
> to...
> 
> We seem to have a fairly wide range of options, but one of the
> overarching themes (as I read it) is using the sounds of your locale
> as the basis of a composition.  For many, that might be the sounds of
> insects, of people jumping into a swimming pool, of thunder.  For
> others, the sound of cold rain, of boots in the snow, of rustling
> leaves.  (pardon me if those sounds are completely out of whack for
> those of you in the southern hemisphere; i'm basing it on my knowledge
> of winter in the northern hemisphere)
> 
> So it seems to me that what we should do is first collect the sounds
> of "summer" (and if you're interested/willing, provide those sounds by
> hosting them/linking to them from the wiki) and then work those into a
> composition of your own desire.  At the end of the summer we upload
> the files for everyone to enjoy, and perhaps, given the interest,
> provide a CD to those who wish one.
> 
> Now, maybe I've completely misrepresented people's desires here, but
> if not, does this sound like a good point of departure for the
> project?
> 
> cheers,
> 
> nick


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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 07:59:01 2005
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> >>  It becomes something else. It becomes smaller, more dedicated,
> >> more about strong personalities.

haha, yeah more real and shit - sounds familiar. like painting your
toe nails black and feeling your strengthened personality through it.
like producing weak sounding music and label it underground.

oh well,
michael

On 6/30/05, Julian Knowles <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> On 30/06/2005, at 7:58 AM, Michael Nisi wrote:
> 
> > six people! c'mon. is that it? /join #microsound :)
> 
> 
> 
> > From: "Tom Ellard" <xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx.xx>
> > Date: 13 June 2005 7:00:54 PM
> >> We found that a different bunch of people use KDX than used to be on
> >> the mailing list. Odd.
> 
> >>  It becomes something else. It becomes smaller, more dedicated,
> >> more about strong personalities.
> >>
> 
> 
> julian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 05:23:04 2005
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From: Roberto Rodrigo =?iso-8859-1?b?TWFzaeE=?= <xxxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] LA CASA MICROSCOPICA
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Hello people,
"La casa Microscopica" or "the microscopic house " consists in a open common
project exploring the relationship between the creators and their living
places.
The idea would be to take as a  start point for the compositions the sounds from
the place where one lives, inside our houses.(pipes, people, mosquitos, traffic
fromoutide, whatever),so  the works of the project are subject to this rule of
using only  sounds coming from recordings made in your house.
In this way we have first the effort (always interesting, I think) of having
some sort of rule or autolimitation in our work and in the other hand the fact
of the inmediate enviroment having a direct and explicit influence in the music
or better said the inmediate environrment almost being our music.
Confirmed artists till now are Pablo Reche, Sogar, Marco Godme, 1=0, Plumb &
Plumber, Marc Mc Nulty ,
Interested?
Roberto Rodrigo
www.montgorecords.com






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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 04:56:11 2005
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Subject: RE: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
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Hi Nick and all,

I have been working on a piece called 'memory of summer' - what
interests me is creating a track based around summer only from memory
(as someone suggested before). I will also work on a piece more locally
based in Australia's winter...

I really like the ideas that this project has brought up and it would be
great to have it coordinated. Perhaps you and I could nut out some
project guidelines and get people to post their tracks on the hotline
server/twiki? Email me with suggestions..

Who actually did start this thread?? :)

Simon.

Symbiosis
Sunday nights, 12am - 2am
102.7 FM / www.rrr.org.au
Melbourne, Australia

xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx


> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
> From: nick knouf <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> Date: Thu, June 30, 2005 2:28 pm
> To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> 
> Hmm, no movement on this for nearly a week...
> 
> I'm not sure if there is a person "in charge" of this project; maybe
> the thread starter?  I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but
> if nobody else is interested in taking charge, I'd be interested/able
> to...
> 
> We seem to have a fairly wide range of options, but one of the
> overarching themes (as I read it) is using the sounds of your locale
> as the basis of a composition.  For many, that might be the sounds of
> insects, of people jumping into a swimming pool, of thunder.  For
> others, the sound of cold rain, of boots in the snow, of rustling
> leaves.  (pardon me if those sounds are completely out of whack for
> those of you in the southern hemisphere; i'm basing it on my knowledge
> of winter in the northern hemisphere)
> 
> So it seems to me that what we should do is first collect the sounds
> of "summer" (and if you're interested/willing, provide those sounds by
> hosting them/linking to them from the wiki) and then work those into a
> composition of your own desire.  At the end of the summer we upload
> the files for everyone to enjoy, and perhaps, given the interest,
> provide a CD to those who wish one.
> 
> Now, maybe I've completely misrepresented people's desires here, but
> if not, does this sound like a good point of departure for the
> project?
> 
> cheers,
> 
> nick


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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 04:28:29 2005
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Hmm, no movement on this for nearly a week...

I'm not sure if there is a person "in charge" of this project; maybe
the thread starter?  I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but
if nobody else is interested in taking charge, I'd be interested/able
to...

We seem to have a fairly wide range of options, but one of the
overarching themes (as I read it) is using the sounds of your locale
as the basis of a composition.  For many, that might be the sounds of
insects, of people jumping into a swimming pool, of thunder.  For
others, the sound of cold rain, of boots in the snow, of rustling
leaves.  (pardon me if those sounds are completely out of whack for
those of you in the southern hemisphere; i'm basing it on my knowledge
of winter in the northern hemisphere)

So it seems to me that what we should do is first collect the sounds
of "summer" (and if you're interested/willing, provide those sounds by
hosting them/linking to them from the wiki) and then work those into a
composition of your own desire.  At the end of the summer we upload
the files for everyone to enjoy, and perhaps, given the interest,
provide a CD to those who wish one.

Now, maybe I've completely misrepresented people's desires here, but
if not, does this sound like a good point of departure for the
project?

cheers,

nick


On 6/24/05, //jonCates <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> Scott C
> 
> snds fantastic
> 
> in support of sandy slippage + pouring snd into snd via summer
> 
> // jonCates
> # http://www.r4wb1t5.org
> # http://www.criticalartware.net
> # http://www.systemsapproach.net
> 
> On Jun 18, 2005, at 7:42 PM, Scott Carver wrote:
> > In the interest of being outside and actually appreciating summer
> > while it's around, what about something performed live, outside,
> > perhaps using sounds from the location of performance? Pick a outdoor
> > location and a time (hopefully a time when it's appropriately
> > summer-ish), and perform a piece, in whatever sense of 'perform' is
> > appropriate and interesting. Screw sitting around in my house with
> > headphones on, if I'm going to do a summer project, I want to make
> > sounds so inextricably entangled with summer they can't be separated,
> > summer and sound pouring into each other until the mixture is
> > impossible to separate.
> >
> > - Scott C.
> 
> 
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>

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 03:27:21 2005
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Subject: Re: [microsound] soulseek
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--Boundary_(ID_8HhxK+3bTOOWZHdPqtPk2A)
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Alina es lo primero que pude escuchar gracias a un amigo.
Ahora tengo más trabajos de Arvö Part:
Arvo Pärt - Arbos (2000)
Arvo Pärt - Beatus
Arvo Pärt - Collage
Arvo Pärt - Fratres (1994)
Arvo Pärt - Orient Occident (2002)
Arvo Pärt - Tabula Rasa

y encontré tambien los trabajos de Frederic Mompou increibles
un abrazo


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jorge Bachmann 
  To: microsound 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 10:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [microsound] soulseek


  ni idea en cuanto a soulseek, pero en cuanto al trabajo de Arvo PÄRT si 
  y no solamente Alina...

  no idea about soulseek, but regarding the work of Arvo PÄRT yes, and 
  not only Alina...

  paz
  J21

  On Jun 29, 2005, at 6:55 PM, godo wrote:

  > Hola, necesito conectarme de nuevo a soulseek pero a través de un 
  > servidor proxy. Busqué ayuda en los foros de slsk pero todavía sin 
  > solución.
  >
  > Nota: revisen Rune Grammofon (www.runegrammofon.com)
  >
  > Alguien en esta lista conoce el trabajo de Arvö Part: Alina?
  >
  >
  >
  justino
  aka jorge bachmann sculpture-photography-sound
  P.O.Box 15953
  San Francisco, CA 94115-0953
  M-415-706-9629 http://anihilo.com
  W-415-750-3517 http://ruidobello.org


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--Boundary_(ID_8HhxK+3bTOOWZHdPqtPk2A)--

From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 02:53:41 2005
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ni idea en cuanto a soulseek, pero en cuanto al trabajo de Arvo PÄRT si 
y no solamente Alina...

no idea about soulseek, but regarding the work of Arvo PÄRT yes, and 
not only Alina...

paz
J21

On Jun 29, 2005, at 6:55 PM, godo wrote:

> Hola, necesito conectarme de nuevo a soulseek pero a través de un 
> servidor proxy. Busqué ayuda en los foros de slsk pero todavía sin 
> solución.
>
> Nota: revisen Rune Grammofon (www.runegrammofon.com)
>
> Alguien en esta lista conoce el trabajo de Arvö Part: Alina?
>
>
>
justino
aka jorge bachmann                                sculpture-photography-sound
P.O.Box 15953
San Francisco, CA 94115-0953
M-415-706-9629                                        http://anihilo.com
W-415-750-3517                                        http://ruidobello.org


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From ???@??? Thu Jun 30 01:59:08 2005
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Hola, necesito conectarme de nuevo a soulseek pero a través de un servidor proxy. Busqué ayuda en los foros de slsk pero todavía sin solución.

Nota: revisen Rune Grammofon (www.runegrammofon.com)

Alguien en esta lista conoce el trabajo de Arvö Part: Alina?


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On 30/06/2005, at 7:58 AM, Michael Nisi wrote:

> six people! c'mon. is that it? /join #microsound :)



> From: "Tom Ellard" <xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx.xx>
> Date: 13 June 2005 7:00:54 PM
>> We found that a different bunch of people use KDX than used to be on
>> the mailing list. Odd.

>>  It becomes something else. It becomes smaller, more dedicated,
>> more about strong personalities.
>>


julian





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From ???@??? Wed Jun 29 22:02:06 2005
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I will when I have some free time from worka nd I don't have any personal computer problems



----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Nisi" <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] hotline server?
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:58:10 +0200

> 
> six people! c'mon. is that it? /join #microsound :)
> 
> On 6/29/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > Join:
> > irc://irc.freenode.org/microsound
> >
> > Mac OS X Client:
> > http://www.colloquy.info/
> >
> > Firefox Extension:
> > https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=16
> >
> > cu,
> > michael
> >
> > On 6/29/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > > Uh, C'mon!
> > >
> > > On 6/29/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > > > I've just blindly did /join microsound on freenode and found 
> > it's already there.
> > > > House occupation is always an option :)
> > > >
> > > > irc://irc.freenode.org/microsound
> > > >
> > > > Take care,
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > > ps. replacing one propretary system by another doen't seem to 
> > be that smart
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 6/14/05, Julian Knowles <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> > > > > I felt that Tom might better explain his decision to use KDX. Here is
> > > > > his response.
> > > > >
> > > > > Begin forwarded message:
> > > > >
> > > > > > From: "Tom Ellard" <xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx.xx>
> > > > > > Date: 13 June 2005 7:00:54 PM
> > > > > > To: Julian Knowles
> > > > > > Subject: Re: thread re KDX sevcom
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Interesting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My response: I am sure the microsound list can understand 
> > the need for
> > > > > > experimentation - in this case in terms of 
> > communications. We're about
> > > > > > 6 months down the track and I think I can answer some questions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We chose KDX because it works the same on all platforms. We looked at
> > > > > > a lot of other tools and thought this seemed pretty compact and
> > > > > > efficient. It fits on a USB key and it works on any machine you care
> > > > > > to use - take it to India with you! It's also very security minded.
> > > > > > Bad points - one developer - he's a touch nutty and we 
> > don't know when
> > > > > > the new version comes. But he listened to every one of our requests,
> > > > > > said some are already happening. We are more about talk 
> > than files and
> > > > > > that's not common.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Community building - is hard work. KDX is not for the lazy sysop. You
> > > > > > have to have the drive of the small town. One problem is that people
> > > > > > are confused by 'news'. It's the same as 'mail' but it 
> > just seems hard
> > > > > > to grasp that you can just mail that way - and they feel pressured to
> > > > > > chat when they don't have to do that. But having said that - once
> > > > > > you're in KDX it uses up no bandwidth. Just log in and ignore it. We
> > > > > > even found a new concept we call 'blurking'. You just sit in the chat
> > > > > > and leave it running all day. Come home at night and see 
> > what was said
> > > > > > all day. The quality of the community is people, not the program.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We found that a different bunch of people use KDX than used to be on
> > > > > > the mailing list. Odd.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would sum it up by saying that you cannot move a 
> > mailing list onto a
> > > > > > KDX. It becomes something else. It becomes smaller, more dedicated,
> > > > > > more about strong personalities.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If anybody would like to kick the tyres they are welcome at
> > > > > > 'sevcom.com' port '1984' pass and name 'guest'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ???@??? Wed Jun 29 21:58:20 2005
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six people! c'mon. is that it? /join #microsound :)

On 6/29/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> Join:
> irc://irc.freenode.org/microsound
> 
> Mac OS X Client:
> http://www.colloquy.info/
> 
> Firefox Extension:
> https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=16
> 
> cu,
> michael
> 
> On 6/29/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > Uh, C'mon!
> >
> > On 6/29/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > > I've just blindly did /join microsound on freenode and found it's already there.
> > > House occupation is always an option :)
> > >
> > > irc://irc.freenode.org/microsound
> > >
> > > Take care,
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > ps. replacing one propretary system by another doen't seem to be that smart
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/14/05, Julian Knowles <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> > > > I felt that Tom might better explain his decision to use KDX. Here is
> > > > his response.
> > > >
> > > > Begin forwarded message:
> > > >
> > > > > From: "Tom Ellard" <xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx.xx>
> > > > > Date: 13 June 2005 7:00:54 PM
> > > > > To: Julian Knowles
> > > > > Subject: Re: thread re KDX sevcom
> > > > >
> > > > > Interesting.
> > > > >
> > > > > My response: I am sure the microsound list can understand the need for
> > > > > experimentation - in this case in terms of communications. We're about
> > > > > 6 months down the track and I think I can answer some questions.
> > > > >
> > > > > We chose KDX because it works the same on all platforms. We looked at
> > > > > a lot of other tools and thought this seemed pretty compact and
> > > > > efficient. It fits on a USB key and it works on any machine you care
> > > > > to use - take it to India with you! It's also very security minded.
> > > > > Bad points - one developer - he's a touch nutty and we don't know when
> > > > > the new version comes. But he listened to every one of our requests,
> > > > > said some are already happening. We are more about talk than files and
> > > > > that's not common.
> > > > >
> > > > > Community building - is hard work. KDX is not for the lazy sysop. You
> > > > > have to have the drive of the small town. One problem is that people
> > > > > are confused by 'news'. It's the same as 'mail' but it just seems hard
> > > > > to grasp that you can just mail that way - and they feel pressured to
> > > > > chat when they don't have to do that. But having said that - once
> > > > > you're in KDX it uses up no bandwidth. Just log in and ignore it. We
> > > > > even found a new concept we call 'blurking'. You just sit in the chat
> > > > > and leave it running all day. Come home at night and see what was said
> > > > > all day. The quality of the community is people, not the program.
> > > > >
> > > > > We found that a different bunch of people use KDX than used to be on
> > > > > the mailing list. Odd.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would sum it up by saying that you cannot move a mailing list onto a
> > > > > KDX. It becomes something else. It becomes smaller, more dedicated,
> > > > > more about strong personalities.
> > > > >
> > > > > If anybody would like to kick the tyres they are welcome at
> > > > > 'sevcom.com' port '1984' pass and name 'guest'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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From ???@??? Wed Jun 29 16:25:32 2005
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Join:
irc://irc.freenode.org/microsound

Mac OS X Client:
http://www.colloquy.info/

Firefox Extension:
https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=16

cu,
michael

On 6/29/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> Uh, C'mon!
> 
> On 6/29/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > I've just blindly did /join microsound on freenode and found it's already there.
> > House occupation is always an option :)
> >
> > irc://irc.freenode.org/microsound
> >
> > Take care,
> > Michael
> >
> > ps. replacing one propretary system by another doen't seem to be that smart
> >
> >
> > On 6/14/05, Julian Knowles <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> > > I felt that Tom might better explain his decision to use KDX. Here is
> > > his response.
> > >
> > > Begin forwarded message:
> > >
> > > > From: "Tom Ellard" <xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx.xx>
> > > > Date: 13 June 2005 7:00:54 PM
> > > > To: Julian Knowles
> > > > Subject: Re: thread re KDX sevcom
> > > >
> > > > Interesting.
> > > >
> > > > My response: I am sure the microsound list can understand the need for
> > > > experimentation - in this case in terms of communications. We're about
> > > > 6 months down the track and I think I can answer some questions.
> > > >
> > > > We chose KDX because it works the same on all platforms. We looked at
> > > > a lot of other tools and thought this seemed pretty compact and
> > > > efficient. It fits on a USB key and it works on any machine you care
> > > > to use - take it to India with you! It's also very security minded.
> > > > Bad points - one developer - he's a touch nutty and we don't know when
> > > > the new version comes. But he listened to every one of our requests,
> > > > said some are already happening. We are more about talk than files and
> > > > that's not common.
> > > >
> > > > Community building - is hard work. KDX is not for the lazy sysop. You
> > > > have to have the drive of the small town. One problem is that people
> > > > are confused by 'news'. It's the same as 'mail' but it just seems hard
> > > > to grasp that you can just mail that way - and they feel pressured to
> > > > chat when they don't have to do that. But having said that - once
> > > > you're in KDX it uses up no bandwidth. Just log in and ignore it. We
> > > > even found a new concept we call 'blurking'. You just sit in the chat
> > > > and leave it running all day. Come home at night and see what was said
> > > > all day. The quality of the community is people, not the program.
> > > >
> > > > We found that a different bunch of people use KDX than used to be on
> > > > the mailing list. Odd.
> > > >
> > > > I would sum it up by saying that you cannot move a mailing list onto a
> > > > KDX. It becomes something else. It becomes smaller, more dedicated,
> > > > more about strong personalities.
> > > >
> > > > If anybody would like to kick the tyres they are welcome at
> > > > 'sevcom.com' port '1984' pass and name 'guest'.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers.
> > >
> > >
> >
>

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From ???@??? Wed Jun 29 16:19:17 2005
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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:19:07 +0100
From: Alex Young <xxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] IRC discussions
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We're on IRC if anyone wants to come.

Server: irc.freenode.org
Channel: #microsound

If you haven't used IRC before, there's quite a few clients around  
for different operating systems.

Windows (shareware):
     http://www.xchat.org/windows/

Mac OS (free):
     http://www.colloquy.info/

Linux/other:
     You're probably an IRC junkie anyway ;)

We could set dates and times for discussions if anyone's interested.   
It's really quite straightforward!

There's channels on freenode for supercollider and pd as well.

--
homepage: http://alexyoung.org
music: http://noise.me.uk


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From ???@??? Wed Jun 29 15:56:03 2005
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Uh, C'mon!

On 6/29/05, Michael Nisi <xxxxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> I've just blindly did /join microsound on freenode and found it's already there.
> House occupation is always an option :)
> 
> irc://irc.freenode.org/microsound
> 
> Take care,
> Michael
> 
> ps. replacing one propretary system by another doen't seem to be that smart
> 
> 
> On 6/14/05, Julian Knowles <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> > I felt that Tom might better explain his decision to use KDX. Here is
> > his response.
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > > From: "Tom Ellard" <xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx.xx>
> > > Date: 13 June 2005 7:00:54 PM
> > > To: Julian Knowles
> > > Subject: Re: thread re KDX sevcom
> > >
> > > Interesting.
> > >
> > > My response: I am sure the microsound list can understand the need for
> > > experimentation - in this case in terms of communications. We're about
> > > 6 months down the track and I think I can answer some questions.
> > >
> > > We chose KDX because it works the same on all platforms. We looked at
> > > a lot of other tools and thought this seemed pretty compact and
> > > efficient. It fits on a USB key and it works on any machine you care
> > > to use - take it to India with you! It's also very security minded.
> > > Bad points - one developer - he's a touch nutty and we don't know when
> > > the new version comes. But he listened to every one of our requests,
> > > said some are already happening. We are more about talk than files and
> > > that's not common.
> > >
> > > Community building - is hard work. KDX is not for the lazy sysop. You
> > > have to have the drive of the small town. One problem is that people
> > > are confused by 'news'. It's the same as 'mail' but it just seems hard
> > > to grasp that you can just mail that way - and they feel pressured to
> > > chat when they don't have to do that. But having said that - once
> > > you're in KDX it uses up no bandwidth. Just log in and ignore it. We
> > > even found a new concept we call 'blurking'. You just sit in the chat
> > > and leave it running all day. Come home at night and see what was said
> > > all day. The quality of the community is people, not the program.
> > >
> > > We found that a different bunch of people use KDX than used to be on
> > > the mailing list. Odd.
> > >
> > > I would sum it up by saying that you cannot move a mailing list onto a
> > > KDX. It becomes something else. It becomes smaller, more dedicated,
> > > more about strong personalities.
> > >
> > > If anybody would like to kick the tyres they are welcome at
> > > 'sevcom.com' port '1984' pass and name 'guest'.
> > >
> > > Cheers.
> >
> >
>

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I've just blindly did /join microsound on freenode and found it's already there.
House occupation is always an option :)

irc://irc.freenode.org/microsound

Take care,
Michael

ps. replacing one propretary system by another doen't seem to be that smart


On 6/14/05, Julian Knowles <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> I felt that Tom might better explain his decision to use KDX. Here is
> his response.
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> > From: "Tom Ellard" <xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx.xx>
> > Date: 13 June 2005 7:00:54 PM
> > To: Julian Knowles
> > Subject: Re: thread re KDX sevcom
> >
> > Interesting.
> >
> > My response: I am sure the microsound list can understand the need for
> > experimentation - in this case in terms of communications. We're about
> > 6 months down the track and I think I can answer some questions.
> >
> > We chose KDX because it works the same on all platforms. We looked at
> > a lot of other tools and thought this seemed pretty compact and
> > efficient. It fits on a USB key and it works on any machine you care
> > to use - take it to India with you! It's also very security minded.
> > Bad points - one developer - he's a touch nutty and we don't know when
> > the new version comes. But he listened to every one of our requests,
> > said some are already happening. We are more about talk than files and
> > that's not common.
> >
> > Community building - is hard work. KDX is not for the lazy sysop. You
> > have to have the drive of the small town. One problem is that people
> > are confused by 'news'. It's the same as 'mail' but it just seems hard
> > to grasp that you can just mail that way - and they feel pressured to
> > chat when they don't have to do that. But having said that - once
> > you're in KDX it uses up no bandwidth. Just log in and ignore it. We
> > even found a new concept we call 'blurking'. You just sit in the chat
> > and leave it running all day. Come home at night and see what was said
> > all day. The quality of the community is people, not the program.
> >
> > We found that a different bunch of people use KDX than used to be on
> > the mailing list. Odd.
> >
> > I would sum it up by saying that you cannot move a mailing list onto a
> > KDX. It becomes something else. It becomes smaller, more dedicated,
> > more about strong personalities.
> >
> > If anybody would like to kick the tyres they are welcome at
> > 'sevcom.com' port '1984' pass and name 'guest'.
> >
> > Cheers.
> 
>

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From ???@??? Tue Jun 28 21:58:56 2005
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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:58:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: sick mode <xxxxxxxx_xxx_xxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] FREE DVD release from SickMODE.net - turb0slut -
 everything we do is illegal (music video album)
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debut video collage release from turb0slut...
40 minutes of lofi psychedelic subversion backed by
21 tracks of the finest sickmode hardcore.

free, as always, at www.sickmode.net

quick link to releases: www.sickmode.net/mp3s

DVD release is [mode017] turb0slut - everything we do
is illegal


                
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail 
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Subject: [microsound] aesthethic suspension
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In my experience in playing or listening to music, I have observed that
sometimes I get in a state of "mind suspension". This happens especially I
think in improvisated music. There is a moment when you have that particular
state that everything is in its place. I could not describe the characteristics
of the music in this moment   in a "scientifical" or rational way, but my
experience is that some people agree when that happens and that is kind of a
energetic flow to what you can be opened or not. To start that flow I think
intuition is a better thing than strategy.
Roberto Rodrigo

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Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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>
>
> Which leads to my point: that IMHO music is more like a code than 
> language. It can clearly convey messages that are understood by 
> 'transmitter and receiver' through some level of agreed cultural 
> meaning (the less widespread the understanding, the more specialist 
> the codes - and the music), but unlike text or stoplight codes, the 
> code of music doesn't convey language, and unlike language (or 
> 'language about music') it cannot genuinely critique itself, convey a 
> manifesto, or request another cup of coffee.
>
I agree, but also feel that meaning can be assigned to anything, by 
anyone.


>> Score one for the neanderthal in the opening scene of 2001space 
>> Oddesey  when he realized a bone can be used to crush some sods head 
>> with.
>
> And then he started drumming with it, which IMO encapsulates the 
> prototype of 'instrumental' military music ; )
>
> S.

LOL!   We use whatever we can to achieve a set goal.  That was the gist 
of that blurb...


aLEKs


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>>  Exegene wrote:
>>Employing a stoplight as a morse code transmitter requires that it 
>>does not function as a stoplight because stoplight as it is cannot 
>>be seperated from stoplight as traffic control. A spoon and bowl 
>>can just as well be used to tap out morse code, although in that 
>>case they would still be able to function as a eating implements, 
>>but that bears in no way on whether or not "soup slurping" is a 
>>language.

  aleks vasic wrote:

>Who cares if it does not function as a stop light.  It can still be 
>used as a tool to communicate in the same exact way you and i are 
>right now.

Not entirely the same way. It requires both knowledge of the language 
*and* knowledge of the stoplight code thru which to interpret that 
language. In this regard text is indeed a code as well, but it just 
happens to be one that is recognized by more people.

Which leads to my point: that IMHO music is more like a code than 
language. It can clearly convey messages that are understood by 
'transmitter and receiver' through some level of agreed cultural 
meaning (the less widespread the understanding, the more specialist 
the codes - and the music), but unlike text or stoplight codes, the 
code of music doesn't convey language, and unlike language (or 
'language about music') it cannot genuinely critique itself, convey a 
manifesto, or request another cup of coffee.

>Score one for the neanderthal in the opening scene of 2001space 
>Oddesey  when he realized a bone can be used to crush some sods head 
>with.

And then he started drumming with it, which IMO encapsulates the 
prototype of 'instrumental' military music ; )

S.

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Well now that you have basically repeated what i sai


On Jun 27, 2005, at 10:34 PM, Exegene wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, aleks vasic wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 27, 2005, at 5:17 PM, Exegene wrote:
> *snip*
>>> stoplights convey specific agreed on information, because stoplights 
>>> can't be used to convey musings on conveying musings with stoplights 
>>> the use of stoplights can't be taken as language.
>>
>> You cant use a stop light the same way you can use and old school 
>> Morse code/ telegraph?  Whats the difference between assigning 
>> meaning to letters/and words and doing the same to a stop light?  You 
>> know i can use a stop light to reproduce all which has been said in 
>> this thread today by assigning meaning to flashes, colours and what 
>> not.
> *snip*
>
> Taking the excuse to engage in some slightly slimy post hoc wordplay, 
> and acknowledging only a particular case of stoplight to facilitate 
> brevity, the stoplight as it is is a device that will emit one of 
> three impulses, one signifying "stop", another "go", the last "prepare 
> to stop." Go is invariably followed by prepare to stop, followed by 
> stop, followed by go. The only room for variability in impulses 
> emitted is found in the time between the onset of each. The impulses 
> are meaningful only to a person operating a vehicle within sight of 
> and in line to pass under the stoplight.

Brilliant...
>
> Employing a stoplight as a morse code transmitter requires that it 
> does not function as a stoplight because stoplight as it is cannot be 
> seperated from stoplight as traffic control. A spoon and bowl can just 
> as well be used to tap out morse code, although in that case they 
> would still be able to function as a eating implements, but that bears 
> in no way on whether or not "soup slurping" is a language.
>
>
Who cares if it does not function as a stop light.  It can still be 
used as a tool to communicate in the same exact way you and i are right 
now.

Score one for the neanderthal in the opening scene of 2001space Oddesey 
  when he realized a bone can be used to crush some sods head with.

aLEKs


> -- 
> Dear Patron Saint,
> your lips are lopsided
> www.devo.com/exegene
>
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Exegene;

<snip clarification of terms>

> "Something like literary theory..." might be most simply expressed as
> talking about talking. Assuming this, is there really any culture that
> does not have "something like literary theory...?"

Well, being capable of selfreferentialness will do as a rough indiction for
me now.

I would think that this would, according to this definition, make a lot of
music apear to be language. We can quote, for example, and exagerate while
quoting which would to me strike me as comparable to talking about talking.
The equivalent of a exhaustive book on linguistics would be quite hard but I
think you could certainly compose a piece that would say something about
similarities between minimalist piano pieces and loop-based techno,
including citations from important sources in those fields. Such a piece may
well be more convincing then a written article on the same topic....


> It is hoped that the proposal or one(many?) to shoulder its burden will
> facilitate the creation and use of language in nonverbal communication
> forms, ideally allowing, for example, for nonverbal music to be both
> political and as expressive and meaningful as the communist manifesto, or
> UN declaration of human rights, or what have you.

Yes, well, here we have a little problem in that I think music can be
selfreferential or refering to other musical expressions in meaningfull ways
but it´s not so well suited for writing manifests (exept perhaps for
manifests on music itself), declaring rights or reporting on court cases. If
we realy wonder wether or not music counts as a language (or what it´d need
to become one) we have to wonder wether it needs to be able to talk about
arbitrary subjects; many real-life languages won´t have the vocabulary to
talk about such matters as nuclear missile design which we clearly can´t
hold against them because not all cultures build nuclear missiles. Music,
currently, seems to have a vocabulary that´s badly suited for any technical
or factually precise discussion but well suited for expressing feelings,
moods and so on.

One element that strikes me as important is that in music the composer will
probably have the feeling he has expressed something and the listener will
ideally have the feeling he got some amount of meaning from it. These things
may well be very different but the same -if we are honest- holds true for
English. However, in the case of music both may well get a sense of a
satisfactory comunication out of a complete missmatch between those two,
probably more so then with English.

To illustrate; a while ago I composed a instrumental piece for a compilation
on the subject of the battle for Stalingrad during WOII. Without mentioning
the topic I played this to a friend and afterwards asked her what meaning
she got from it. She replied that she beleived it to be about the
transportation of the jews during the same war (this war wasn´t mentioned
previously that afternoon). We now have to wonder wether my piece
successfully comunicated something. I would say I was about as successfull
as the average person shouting over heavy machinery or music is; some
indication of the subject got across but not all of what was said about it.
As far as purely political expressions go (and if we are flatering to me as
a composer and disregard luck) you could say it was a success since the
rejection of nazi practices got across.

Personally I suspect that this inherent uncertainity and vagueness may well
be a large part of what makes music so enjoyable. Law and contracts may be
very exact and non-ambiguous (as far as comunication goes) but they are not
realy enjoyable which I´m inclined to look at as a advantage for music in
it´s comunicative ablity; if you want to be heard then there´s a lot to be
said for making your expressions apealing to your audience.


.....Which I suppose comes down more to a set of side-notes on the subject
then a real discussion of all of your points.

Yours,
Kas.



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============================================================
below is a re-post of the info w/r/t the microsound-announcement list 
for those who have just joined the microsound list:
============================================================

John Saylor has generously donated both his server space and time
setting up a new list for members who want to promote content...it is
called the microsound-announce list and can be found here:
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###########################################
- this is where the microsound community should post announcements
promoting their music, label, radio show, upcoming concert, or
whatever...
###########################################
- here is how the process of switching over is going to work:
- all people who normally post announcements to the microsound list
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switch to the announce list for posting future microsound related
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thanks!
KIM


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From: Exegene <xxxxxxx@xxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Kassen wrote:

> Exegene;
>
>> i submit that a language-candidate is indeed a language only if it can be
>> used to write a book on literary theory(1).
>> 1 - Where book means anything similar to a recorded, transmissible and
>> archivable message, literary theory is  divorced of western cultural
>> imperialism, etc.
>
> Well, that´s a clear definition, but I fail to see how it´s a good or
> usefull one or what the use is of excluding languages (well, canidates, to
> you) that have no written form (there are a lot of those) or that belong to
> culures that for some reason aren´t so inclined towards literary theory (I
> could see some solid reasons for that).

Okay. "Book" and "literary theory" may have been poor choices. How about 
instead "something like a book" and "something like literary theory, 
depending on what 'something like a book' evaulates to." Mayan calendars, 
the Finnbogi Saga, and so on  satisfy "something like a book." Any 
language-candidate with words for "speak" and similar probably pass the 
"something like literary theory..." condition.

> It will also immediately raise the question exactly what is literary theory
> in this context while we try to sort the savages from the users of language.
> "Jack´s song rhimes nicely" and "Error parsing "Exegene" in line 001;
> invalid expression" could both be seen as examples of expressions that have
> some aspects of literary theory", are they? Suppose we chanced uppon some
> group of people that made sounds towards one another; how would we go about
> comunicating with them, even if we had a interperter, if we wouldn´t yet be
> sure wether they had a language at all? If I´d belong to such a group I´d
> immediately claim that yes, you could write a book on language theory in my
> language but no, we are not going to do it, being presently engaged in some
> other activity. This would leave the poor anthropologist with the task of
> trying to write or record a book equivalent in my language.
*snip*

"Something like literary theory..." might be most simply expressed as 
talking about talking. Assuming this, is there really any culture that 
does not have "something like literary theory...?" This phrase of course 
does not allow the transmission of novel information and can only 
reference  what the receiver already knows on the matter of talking, and 
needs to be analysed to reveal 
is secret kernal. Similarly "something like a book" so far i can come up 
with no rigorous definition for, being able only to list things 
sufficiently "like a book" in the hopethat its own secret kernel may be 
meaningfully referenced. Clearly, if the proposal is to be good, useful, 
or advantageous, the two gaping placeholders will require serious 
investment of effort.

Just who does or does not understand whom does not come into the picture 
of determining who is in posession of language by the proposed criteria. 
If the strange people with the strange language-candidate are capable of, 
say, spreading rumors, recognising those rumors as rumors, and expressing that 
they are indeed so, they would certainly be in posession of language.

To indulge in buzzwords, it's the fractaline complexity of language that 
is one of its most defining feature, that gives it its expressivity, that 
can only occur with the potential for significant self-reference. Whether 
the possibility of self reference require some amount of something like 
self reference to be already in the memory of the user of the 
language-candidate in question is a difficult question. But, it seems that 
the ability to analyse analysis really is so important, because it is a 
languages equivalent of self-awareness. It's not enough that a person is 
able to transmit meaning, the language and its words/sagas/tax law reform
proposals/LPs/... have to be part of the conversation, possibly holding 
their own private conversation, too.

It is hoped that the proposal or one(many?) to shoulder its burden will 
facilitate the creation and use of language in nonverbal communication 
forms, ideally allowing, for example, for nonverbal music to be both 
political and as expressive and meaningful as the communist manifesto, or 
UN declaration of human rights, or what have you.


-- 
Dear Patron Saint,
your lips are lopsided
www.devo.com/exegene
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On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, aleks vasic wrote:

>
> On Jun 27, 2005, at 5:17 PM, Exegene wrote:
*snip*
>> stoplights convey specific agreed on information, because stoplights can't 
>> be used to convey musings on conveying musings with stoplights the use of 
>> stoplights can't be taken as language.
>
> You cant use a stop light the same way you can use and old school Morse code/ 
> telegraph?  Whats the difference between assigning meaning to letters/and 
> words and doing the same to a stop light?  You know i can use a stop light to 
> reproduce all which has been said in this thread today by assigning meaning 
> to flashes, colours and what not.
*snip*

Taking the excuse to engage in some slightly slimy post hoc wordplay, and 
acknowledging only a particular case of stoplight to facilitate brevity, 
the stoplight as it is is a device that will emit one of three impulses, 
one signifying "stop", another "go", the last "prepare to stop." Go is 
invariably followed by prepare to stop, followed by stop, followed by go. 
The only room for variability in impulses emitted is found in the time 
between the onset of each. The impulses are meaningful only to a person 
operating a vehicle within sight of and in line to pass under the 
stoplight.

Employing a stoplight as a morse code transmitter requires that it does 
not function as a stoplight because stoplight as it is cannot be 
seperated from stoplight as traffic control. A spoon and bowl 
can just as well be used to tap out morse code, although in that case they 
would still be able to function as a eating implements, but that bears in 
no way on whether or not "soup slurping" is a language.

-- 
Dear Patron Saint,
your lips are lopsided
www.devo.com/exegene

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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 23:03:02 2005
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Subject: Re: [microsound] non-verbal encounters of the 3rd kind...
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Never mind Graham answered my question, thanks in advance all who are 
furiously typing at this moment!;)


aLEKs


On Jun 27, 2005, at 7:01 PM, aleks vasic wrote:

> No your memory does not play tricks.  In my sickness i have been 
> watching some rare TV and caught Forbidden Planet just a few days ago 
> on some channel( i watch about an hour of TV a week so i am not to 
> keen on what channels are out there besides cartoon network/Comedy 
> Channel)
>
> The scene you described made me sit  up in my seat and say, "Wow."  
> That was cool!
> It was very microsoundish.  I very much enjoyed all the sound elements 
> in the film, keeping in mind that the film was made some 40 plus odd 
> years ago.  anyone know who did the sound in that film?  The same gent 
> who did the score?
>
>
> aLEKs
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2005, at 6:47 PM, bobby whn wrote:
>
>>
>> its all about the barron's sound for 'forbidden planet' , i like the 
>> scene where the doctor plays some
>> music made by the alien race which used to inhabit the planet , after 
>> he's described how immensely
>> advanced and intense they were , and its this wonderful bleepy 
>> semi-microsound-ish (memory plays
>> tricks) electronic music. I heard it was made by constructing doomed 
>> circuits which gradually died
>> and produced unique sounds , which were then used for little 
>> leitmotifs for some of the characters
>> also. Anybody know more about this?
>>
>> -Mr whn (sounds a bit like 'mysteron', heheh)
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's 
>> FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>>
>>
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>>
>
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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 23:01:30 2005
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No your memory does not play tricks.  In my sickness i have been 
watching some rare TV and caught Forbidden Planet just a few days ago 
on some channel( i watch about an hour of TV a week so i am not to keen 
on what channels are out there besides cartoon network/Comedy Channel)

The scene you described made me sit  up in my seat and say, "Wow."  
That was cool!
It was very microsoundish.  I very much enjoyed all the sound elements 
in the film, keeping in mind that the film was made some 40 plus odd 
years ago.  anyone know who did the sound in that film?  The same gent 
who did the score?


aLEKs


On Jun 27, 2005, at 6:47 PM, bobby whn wrote:

>
> its all about the barron's sound for 'forbidden planet' , i like the 
> scene where the doctor plays some
> music made by the alien race which used to inhabit the planet , after 
> he's described how immensely
> advanced and intense they were , and its this wonderful bleepy 
> semi-microsound-ish (memory plays
> tricks) electronic music. I heard it was made by constructing doomed 
> circuits which gradually died
> and produced unique sounds , which were then used for little 
> leitmotifs for some of the characters
> also. Anybody know more about this?
>
> -Mr whn (sounds a bit like 'mysteron', heheh)
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's 
> FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>


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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 22:49:40 2005
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from the liner notes of the album:

“We design and construct electronic circuits which function electronically in
a manner remarkably similar to the way that lower life-forms function
psychologically,” the composers explain. “There is a comprehensive
mathematical science explaining it, called ‘Cybernetics,” which is concerned
with Control and Communication in the Animal and Machine.  It was first
propounded by Prof. Norbert Wiener of M.I.T. who found that there are certain
natural laws of behaviour applicable alike to animals (including humans) and
electronic machines.  In scoring FORBIDDEN PLANET ? as in all our work ? we
created individual cybernetic circuits for particular themes and leit motifs,
rather than using standard sound generators.  Actually, each circuit has a
characteristic activity pattern as well as a ‘voice.’ Most remarkable is that
the sounds which emanate from these electronic nervous systems seem to convey
strong emotional meaning to listeners.”

there's a great reaktor patch called 'krel' which does this sound justice...
do a search on the native instruments page..

g.

bobby whn wrote:

> its all about the barron's sound for 'forbidden planet' , i like the scene
> where the doctor plays some
> music made by the alien race which used to inhabit the planet , after he's
> described how immensely
> advanced and intense they were , and its this wonderful bleepy
> semi-microsound-ish (memory plays
> tricks) electronic music. I heard it was made by constructing doomed
> circuits which gradually died
> and produced unique sounds , which were then used for little leitmotifs for
> some of the characters
> also. Anybody know more about this?
>
> -Mr whn (sounds a bit like 'mysteron', heheh)
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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its all about the barron's sound for 'forbidden planet' , i like the scene 
where the doctor plays some
music made by the alien race which used to inhabit the planet , after he's 
described how immensely
advanced and intense they were , and its this wonderful bleepy 
semi-microsound-ish (memory plays
tricks) electronic music. I heard it was made by constructing doomed 
circuits which gradually died
and produced unique sounds , which were then used for little leitmotifs for 
some of the characters
also. Anybody know more about this?

-Mr whn (sounds a bit like 'mysteron', heheh)

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 22:47:44 2005
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knowing williams' creative process and his thoughtfulness, you're probably
right. speaking of which, i'm going to see the toronto symphony orchestra do
'star wars' tomorrow and wednesday (hosted by anthony daniels!)... i've been
dreaming about this gig for the past 27 years:) very unmicrosound, though.


>
>
> I don't know if John Williams has chosen those 5 notes because of this but
> D4 E4 C4 C3 G3 are all in the C1 overtones series
> which is not a western harmony's prerogative (though western harmony's
> theorists too many times used the overtone series to justify funny rules).
> I think this gives a much more wider perspective to his motif.
>


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> i always loved that idea in the film, although i find it 
> highly suspect that the aliens prefer western harmony...
> 

I don't know if John Williams has chosen those 5 notes because of this but 
D4 E4 C4 C3 G3 are all in the C1 overtones series 
which is not a western harmony's prerogative (though western harmony's
theorists too many times used the overtone series to justify funny rules).
I think this gives a much more wider perspective to his motif.


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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 22:20:39 2005
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>i find it highly suspect that the aliens prefer western harmony...
-You might be disappointed: but aliens are like everybody else in the
 universe. If you pay enough they play your tune in whatever key you like...

AvS

  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
......................................................................

  `    |Schreck Ensemble    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +

    `  |# -laboratory for live electro-acoustic music- #            |
       |             http://www.schreck.nl/                         |
       |             http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/                 |
     ` *===========================================================++
     ` |Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html  |
     ` |Samples      http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html   |
     ` |Patches      http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html    |
     ` |Videos       http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html  |

     ` |Scores       http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html |

       *===========================================================++
  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
......................................................................



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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 22:08:55 2005
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last scene in the movie...

light and sound used to communicate to the little aliens... (cue john
williams 5 note melodic motif)

who would have thought that the intergalactic language would turn out to
be synthesis...

the aliens seem to have no problem understanding major scales:)

i always loved that idea in the film, although i find it highly suspect
that the aliens prefer western harmony...

now that i'm thinking about, isn't tabla music written out as words, as
opposed to notes? and aren't the tabla drum patterns themselves used to
communicate specific narratives?

"this means something..." weird al.

g.


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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 21:56:01 2005
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On Jun 27, 2005, at 5:17 PM, Exegene wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Kassen wrote:
>
> i submit that a language-candidate is indeed a language only if it can 
> be used to write a book on literary theory(1). It follows that while 
> stoplights convey specific agreed on information, because stoplights 
> can't be used to convey musings on conveying musings with stoplights 
> the use of stoplights can't be taken as language.

You cant use a stop light the same way you can use and old school Morse 
code/ telegraph?  Whats the difference between assigning meaning to 
letters/and words and doing the same to a stop light?  You know i can 
use a stop light to reproduce all which has been said in this thread 
today by assigning meaning to flashes, colours and what not.

Its just a vessel with which we use in order to communicate.  Sure 
carrying around a stop light with you in your day to day life is not 
very convenient, and speech and language fill that need in much more 
efficient manner, but thats not the point here.

>
> Further consideration of the thread starter seems to support certain 
> other listees in their belief that nonverbal music may be made 
> political by means of packaging, titling, and other things external to 
> the music proper, and that nontraditional and noncommercial music are 
> inherently political. A small push : the finished track is the 
> transmissible, marketable congealment of the artist, but is not the 
> vital truth, the artist's existence, awareness, and life-activities. 
> Any attempt to keep politics sequestered inside the (nonverbal) music 
> means allowing the artist's greatest expressive tool - hirself - to be 
> depoliticized.
>
>
> 1 - Where book means anything similar to a recorded, transmissible and 
> archivable message, literary theory is  divorced of western cultural 
> imperialism, etc.
>
Unless i misunderstand you i believe the exact opposite to be true.


aLEKs


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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 21:46:22 2005
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Exegene;

> i submit that a language-candidate is indeed a language only if it can be
> used to write a book on literary theory(1).
> 1 - Where book means anything similar to a recorded, transmissible and
> archivable message, literary theory is  divorced of western cultural
> imperialism, etc.

Well, that´s a clear definition, but I fail to see how it´s a good or
usefull one or what the use is of excluding languages (well, canidates, to
you) that have no written form (there are a lot of those) or that belong to
culures that for some reason aren´t so inclined towards literary theory (I
could see some solid reasons for that).

It will also immediately raise the question exactly what is literary theory
in this context while we try to sort the savages from the users of language.
"Jack´s song rhimes nicely" and "Error parsing "Exegene" in line 001;
invalid expression" could both be seen as examples of expressions that have
some aspects of literary theory", are they? Suppose we chanced uppon some
group of people that made sounds towards one another; how would we go about
comunicating with them, even if we had a interperter, if we wouldn´t yet be
sure wether they had a language at all? If I´d belong to such a group I´d
immediately claim that yes, you could write a book on language theory in my
language but no, we are not going to do it, being presently engaged in some
other activity. This would leave the poor anthropologist with the task of
trying to write or record a book equivalent in my language.

Sillyness aside, I´m not yet convinced of your proposed definition; I´d
realy like to hear some advantages of it. For sure the ability of
selfreferntailness is a important stage in culural development but is it so
important that we can claim languages that don´t have it (yet) aren´t
languages?

Yours,
Kas.



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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 21:26:39 2005
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>Any attempt to keep politics sequestered inside the (nonverbal) music
>means >allowing the >artist's greatest expressive tool - hirself - to be
>>depoliticized.
-If that is the decision of the artist, I don't see any problems with that.
 It's only the problem of the sycophants, svengali's and other vultures, who
 want to decide for others.

AvS

  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
......................................................................

  `    |Schreck Ensemble    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +

    `  |# -laboratory for live electro-acoustic music- #            |
       |             http://www.schreck.nl/                         |
       |             http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/                 |
     ` *===========================================================++
     ` |Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html  |
     ` |Samples      http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html   |
     ` |Patches      http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html    |
     ` |Videos       http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html  |

     ` |Scores       http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html |

       *===========================================================++
  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
......................................................................



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On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Kassen wrote:

> aleks vasic;
*snip*
>> IMO, or a better description would be complex communication.  Using
>> your rationale the lights on a stop light, red, yellow, and green are a
>> language of sorts.
>
> Yes. It is debatable indeed wether that is a language. When push comes to
> shove I think I believe those things to be a very limited language with just
> a few words and hardly any gramar. To me, within the larger context of
> comunicating ideas (possibly political ones) through the use of non-verbal
> sound the concept of comunication and the transfer of information are much
> more interesting then wether something is a actual language, should we be
> able to find a definition of "language" that everybody finds satisfactory..
*snip*

i submit that a language-candidate is indeed a language only if it can be 
used to write a book on literary theory(1). It follows that while 
stoplights convey specific agreed on information, because stoplights can't 
be used to convey musings on conveying musings with stoplights the use of 
stoplights can't be taken as language.

Further consideration of the thread starter seems to support certain other 
listees in their belief that nonverbal music may be made political by 
means of packaging, titling, and other things external to the music 
proper, and that nontraditional and noncommercial music are inherently 
political. A small push : the finished track is the transmissible, 
marketable congealment of the artist, but is not the vital truth, the 
artist's existence, awareness, and life-activities. Any attempt to keep 
politics sequestered inside the (nonverbal) music means allowing the 
artist's greatest expressive tool - hirself - to be depoliticized.


1 - Where book means anything similar to a recorded, transmissible and 
archivable message, literary theory is  divorced of western cultural 
imperialism, etc.

-- 
Dear Patron Saint,
your lips are lopsided
www.devo.com/exegene

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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 21:04:07 2005
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 aleks vasic

> I can be pretty dense sometimes, also afflicted with tunnel vision here
> and there.  Rereading your initial post as well as your explanation in
> this post, i do not know how i missed the gist of it.  Sorry i am sick
> and i have a fever, maybe i should refrain from discourse that requires
> my brain to function past the thrid grade level!

Get well soon. Wars, language, music and 16 year olds with dubious amounts
of hair styling carying record bags will still be there for you after your
fever is gone again.

Yours,
Kas.



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On Jun 27, 2005, at 4:21 PM, Kassen wrote:

> aleks vasic;
>
>> The use of music on the battle field had a finite set of purposes
>> throughout military history.  Communication, psychological
>> intimidation, morale booster.
>
> Yes, I agree. What I was trying to say was that such factors also come 
> in
> play in conventional music, in adition to the IMHO comparable element 
> of
> impressing prospective mates and the afiliation with a certain social 
> tribe.
> That last factor may also play a role in military use of sound and 
> music.
> What I intended as the core of my message but which may have been 
> pushed to
> the back by other points is that when those factors play a role in 
> civilian
> music then the influence they have is taken to be caused by aestetic
> concerns while very comparable influences in military use are often 
> asumed
> to be purely practical or admitted to signal the kind of thing we´d 
> rather
> not admit to signalling in day to day life on a personal scale.
>
> I think this muddies that way in which we evaluate the material,
> particularly because it would mean multiple levels of comunication 
> within
> music.

I can be pretty dense sometimes, also afflicted with tunnel vision here 
and there.  Rereading your initial post as well as your explanation in 
this post, i do not know how i missed the gist of it.  Sorry i am sick 
and i have a fever, maybe i should refrain from discourse that requires 
my brain to function past the thrid grade level!


>> To the best of my knowledge we are addressing the use of Music and
>> instruments on the battlefield as a form of communication , at least
>> thats what i responded too from a previous microsounders post.
>
> Yes, I might have digressed from that a little, back to the 
> comunicative
> sides of sounds and music.
> Sorry if that confused.
>
> I jumped on your discussion of military comunication more to try to 
> use it
> to illustrate sides of non-military music then to engage in a detailed
> discussion on battlefield comunication, interesting as that may be 
> currently
> with the word "friendly fire" becoming common.
>
>> Im sure some personal choice may go into it.  But in the spirit of the
>> Military tradition, functionality is king.  You can play all the
>> beatiful songs you want after your enemies are crushed under foot.  To
>> crush them you need an efficient way to communicate on the field of
>> battle.  Hence the topic matter.  Remember my original opinion was 
>> that
>> using music on the battlefield is not a form of literal communication
>> IMO, or a better description would be complex communication.  Using
>> your rationale the lights on a stop light, red, yellow, and green are 
>> a
>> language of sorts.
>
> Yes. It is debatable indeed wether that is a language. When push comes 
> to
> shove I think I believe those things to be a very limited language 
> with just
> a few words and hardly any gramar. To me, within the larger context of
> comunicating ideas (possibly political ones) through the use of 
> non-verbal
> sound the concept of comunication and the transfer of information are 
> much
> more interesting then wether something is a actual language, should we 
> be
> able to find a definition of "language" that everybody finds 
> satisfactory..
>
> Hope that helps.
>
Yes it does, but many of your thoughts and opinions open up other cans 
of worms such as point of reference of an individual, of a culture, 
context, point of reference of said context.  All points you addressed 
directly or indirectly.  As is said i was afflicted with tunnel vision 
inregards to all non military matter within the topic, again my 
delerium must be to blame for this!


aLEKs


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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 20:23:23 2005
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aleks vasic;

> The use of music on the battle field had a finite set of purposes
> throughout military history.  Communication, psychological
> intimidation, morale booster.

Yes, I agree. What I was trying to say was that such factors also come in
play in conventional music, in adition to the IMHO comparable element of
impressing prospective mates and the afiliation with a certain social tribe.
That last factor may also play a role in military use of sound and music.
What I intended as the core of my message but which may have been pushed to
the back by other points is that when those factors play a role in civilian
music then the influence they have is taken to be caused by aestetic
concerns while very comparable influences in military use are often asumed
to be purely practical or admitted to signal the kind of thing we´d rather
not admit to signalling in day to day life on a personal scale.

I think this muddies that way in which we evaluate the material,
particularly because it would mean multiple levels of comunication within
music.

>
> To the best of my knowledge we are addressing the use of Music and
> instruments on the battlefield as a form of communication , at least
> thats what i responded too from a previous microsounders post.

Yes, I might have digressed from that a little, back to the comunicative
sides of sounds and music.
Sorry if that confused.

I jumped on your discussion of military comunication more to try to use it
to illustrate sides of non-military music then to engage in a detailed
discussion on battlefield comunication, interesting as that may be currently
with the word "friendly fire" becoming common.

> Im sure some personal choice may go into it.  But in the spirit of the
> Military tradition, functionality is king.  You can play all the
> beatiful songs you want after your enemies are crushed under foot.  To
> crush them you need an efficient way to communicate on the field of
> battle.  Hence the topic matter.  Remember my original opinion was that
> using music on the battlefield is not a form of literal communication
> IMO, or a better description would be complex communication.  Using
> your rationale the lights on a stop light, red, yellow, and green are a
> language of sorts.

Yes. It is debatable indeed wether that is a language. When push comes to
shove I think I believe those things to be a very limited language with just
a few words and hardly any gramar. To me, within the larger context of
comunicating ideas (possibly political ones) through the use of non-verbal
sound the concept of comunication and the transfer of information are much
more interesting then wether something is a actual language, should we be
able to find a definition of "language" that everybody finds satisfactory..

Hope that helps.

Yours,
Kas.



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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 20:06:27 2005
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Touche'!  LOL!

aLEKs


On Jun 27, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Arie van Schutterhoef wrote:

>> fail to see how its relevant to communicating on a battlefield using
>>> instruments and bugle calls(Loops!)
> -It makes the communication with the enemy much better, because now 
> they
>  now where you are and can shoot you more easily....
>
> AvS
>
>   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> .....................................................................
>
>   `    |Schreck Ensemble    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +
>
>     `  |# -laboratory for live electro-acoustic music- #            |
>        |             http://www.schreck.nl/                         |
>        |             http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/                 |
>      ` *===========================================================++
>      ` |Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html  |
>      ` |Samples      http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html   |
>      ` |Patches      http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html    |
>      ` |Videos       http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html  |
>
>      ` |Scores       http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html |
>
>        *===========================================================++
>   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> .....................................................................
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>fail to see how its relevant to communicating on a battlefield using
>>instruments and bugle calls(Loops!)
-It makes the communication with the enemy much better, because now they
 now where you are and can shoot you more easily....

AvS

  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
......................................................................

  `    |Schreck Ensemble    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +

    `  |# -laboratory for live electro-acoustic music- #            |
       |             http://www.schreck.nl/                         |
       |             http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/                 |
     ` *===========================================================++
     ` |Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html  |
     ` |Samples      http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html   |
     ` |Patches      http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html    |
     ` |Videos       http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html  |

     ` |Scores       http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html |

       *===========================================================++
  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
......................................................................



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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 19:47:33 2005
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Language is much broader than signals, although signals are included 
within language, particularly in the imperative statements: "Wash the 
dishes.  Get that report out by 3 P.M."  Signals are commands that are 
meant to be unambiguous and have a direct effect on the party receiving 
the communication.  A signal could also be entirely mechanical (or 
biological) with no human involved in the communication process.  A 
chemical in the brain can act as a signal after all.  I take spoken 
language, on the other hand, to include much ambiguity and to include 
the possibility for multiple interpretations and creative interplay 
which may or may not have any clear purpose or function.  Likewise, 
musically normally operates in an ambiguous way, as a play of abstract 
sonorities controlled by  arbitrary sets of rules and with any meaning 
or message tending to be ambiguous.  Clearly, however, sound can be used 
as a command or signal in an UN-ambiguous way, depending on the 
context.  Is not the return of the 4-to-the-floor kick drum after an 
extended absence not a command to resume dancing in house and techno music?

Deleuze and Guattari do some interesting exploration of "order words" 
and the relationship between language and command (and a signal is a 
kind of command) - a speech situation which, interestingly, they take as 
central to language whereas a philosopher like Habermas takes such 
situations to be marginal and not the "essence" of inter-subjective 
communication.

~David

graham miller wrote:

>just to play devil's advocate here, but isn't spoken language just
>'signals' too? more complex and multifaceted, yes. more open to multiple
>interpretations and ambiguity? yes. but signals none less encoded into
>sound deep within the larynx... ditto for written language... every form of
>communication, which includes art, falls within the scope of semiotics...
>
>i'm not sure there is such a thing as a 'literal language' aside from
>mathematics, the only form of communication that holds true throughout the
>universe (more or less...)
>g.
>
>aleks vasic wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Well the use of music on the battle field is not "Literal
>>communication"  Its a form of cumminication that would be better labeld
>>as "Signals"  Because thats what they were.  Just because music can be
>>used in ways other then it was intended to, does not make it a literal
>>language.   I think you can come up with a better example then military
>>use of music, which at the time was the best way to communicate over
>>small distances.
>>
>>I never defined music or launguage.  Please reread my original post.
>>
>>aLEKs
>>
>>    
>>

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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 19:36:13 2005
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The use of music on the battle field had a finite set of purposes 
throughout military history.  Communication, psychological 
intimidation, morale booster.

To the best of my knowledge we are addressing the use of Music and 
instruments on the battlefield as a form of communication , at least 
thats what i responded too from a previous microsounders post.



On Jun 27, 2005, at 3:05 PM, Kassen wrote:

> I think the line is a little more blurry then that. I once read that 
> music
> originated from young males trying to impress the girls (from time to 
> time I
> get the idea nothing changed when looking at DJ or car audio 
> culture...) and
> there you could argue it´s very much a comunicative signal. Love 
> songs, the
> more political side of punk and so on could all be argued to 
> comunicate.
> Just like a big drum is a good medium to get messages across large 
> fields
> putting you political or romantic aspirations to melody may make them 
> cary
> futher, albeit in a different way.
>

I see where your going but i fail to see how its relevant to 
communicating on a battlefield using instruments and bugle 
calls(Loops!)

> In many cases I´m not sure I realy see so much difference particularly 
> not
> because music has many other functions besides just being beautufull. I
> think there is for example some element of marking teritory with 
> portable
> instalations meant for high volume such as ghetto blasters. When 
> picking a
> drum from amongst multiple suitable canidates i´m sure the warlords of 
> old
> would want the one that sounded the lowest for reasons very similar to 
> D&B
> producers. In the case of the producer we´d probably call that a 
> musical
> choice, why not in the warlord?

Im sure some personal choice may go into it.  But in the spirit of the 
Military tradition, functionality is king.  You can play all the 
beatiful songs you want after your enemies are crushed under foot.  To 
crush them you need an efficient way to communicate on the field of 
battle.  Hence the topic matter.  Remember my original opinion was that 
using music on the battlefield is not a form of literal communication 
IMO, or a better description would be complex communication.  Using 
your rationale the lights on a stop light, red, yellow, and green are a 
language of sorts.  While logically i would have to agree with you, it 
would hardly be the choice i would make had i a need to adopt a fform 
of communication for whatever reason.  Its limited, that was the gist 
of my intitial statement that you responded too.  Kinda apples and 
oranges IMO.


> Perhaps it´s pushing it to call it a language but I think those uses of
> sound are often very similar in how they map to meaning, even if much 
> of
> this process may be unconcious.

Yes, i touched upon this in my previous paragraph.   Again i agree.
>
> Microsound would at first seem to be too abstract to be linked to
> comunication in such a blatant way but I think it´s no accident that
> Microsound often uses sounds asociated with breaking or broken 
> products and
> that the Microsound comunity is very crtical of comercial companies. 
> The
> impressiveness of the drum sound does not nesicarily have anything to 
> do
> with the functioning of the batalions as such but it´s still there 
> because
> the general needs to urgently express how much more impressive his 
> army is
> and I think this is akin to a Microsound composer that still uses the 
> sounds
> of broken things even when the subject of the piece is -say- 
> summertime.

Thats a stretch IMO, care to elaborate for me incase i am not following 
you?
>
> Multiple levels of symbolism and comunication may be intertwined, 
> perhaps
> even conflicting (one MTV leader sounded quite microsoundy to me) but 
> even
> if it´s not possible to "translate" everything coherently all of the 
> time,
> there´s still a lot of cumunication through symbolim going on and 
> exactly
> what part of that is "music" to you may depend more on how you relate 
> to the
> sound and who makes it then to anyhting else.
>
> My cents,
> Kas.
>
Within Context, sure.



aLEKs


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Mr.D

> The problem I see is that spoken language is by default a mere copy
> of the real thing. We only describe things with spoken languages, we
> don't actualize them.

"Sold".

Kas.



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On Jun 27, 2005, at 11:01 AM, graham miller wrote:

> just to play devil's advocate here, but isn't spoken language just
> 'signals' too? more complex and multifaceted, yes. more open to  
> multiple
> interpretations and ambiguity? yes. but signals none less encoded into
> sound deep within the larynx... ditto for written language... every  
> form of
> communication, which includes art, falls within the scope of  
> semiotics...

The problem I see is that spoken language is by default a mere copy  
of the real thing. We only describe things with spoken languages, we  
don't actualize them. In music, things are actualized as new sound,  
with an ability to be completely and utterly devoid of context except  
that which defines it in the instant it is created. With languages  
that use words that have already been created to describe something,  
we automatically have a cognitive association with the word, so it  
seems to me that it is impossible to simply divorce words from language.

I really like a lot of the work by poets like Retallack (she has some  
wonderful poetry, besides the great published conversations with  
Cage) and Mac Low that take pieces and parts of language and diverge  
their meaning... Cage did a lot of this too, and I also like similar  
stuff done by cummings, Joyce and Stein.

> i'm not sure there is such a thing as a 'literal language' aside from
> mathematics, the only form of communication that holds true  
> throughout the
> universe (more or less...)

But math falls right into the same trap that word-based languages do.  
The symbols are only that, signifiers and abstractions of something  
that's real. Concepts are only concepts because we enumerate them,  
and exist exclusively from the language that describes them,  
regardless of whether they are qualitative or quantitative.

m


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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 19:06:27 2005
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aleks vasic

> Well, the use of INSTRUMENTS, to communicate on the battlefield is not
> music in its traditional sense.  More along the lines of humans being
> problem solvers and using whatever is at hand to solve said problem, in
> this case keeping formations in sync, signaling attack and retreats,
> and other military gobbledy gook.  Its definatley not a language when
> compared to literal communication(i assume this to be written word).
> Its very limited for todays world, but it did serve its purpose.  Non
> exhistent in todays military world aside from nostalgia and tradition.

I think the line is a little more blurry then that. I once read that music
originated from young males trying to impress the girls (from time to time I
get the idea nothing changed when looking at DJ or car audio culture...) and
there you could argue it´s very much a comunicative signal. Love songs, the
more political side of punk and so on could all be argued to comunicate.
Just like a big drum is a good medium to get messages across large fields
putting you political or romantic aspirations to melody may make them cary
futher, albeit in a different way.

In many cases I´m not sure I realy see so much difference particularly not
because music has many other functions besides just being beautufull. I
think there is for example some element of marking teritory with portable
instalations meant for high volume such as ghetto blasters. When picking a
drum from amongst multiple suitable canidates i´m sure the warlords of old
would want the one that sounded the lowest for reasons very similar to D&B
producers. In the case of the producer we´d probably call that a musical
choice, why not in the warlord?

Perhaps it´s pushing it to call it a language but I think those uses of
sound are often very similar in how they map to meaning, even if much of
this process may be unconcious.

Microsound would at first seem to be too abstract to be linked to
comunication in such a blatant way but I think it´s no accident that
Microsound often uses sounds asociated with breaking or broken products and
that the Microsound comunity is very crtical of comercial companies. The
impressiveness of the drum sound does not nesicarily have anything to do
with the functioning of the batalions as such but it´s still there because
the general needs to urgently express how much more impressive his army is
and I think this is akin to a Microsound composer that still uses the sounds
of broken things even when the subject of the piece is -say- summertime.

Multiple levels of symbolism and comunication may be intertwined, perhaps
even conflicting (one MTV leader sounded quite microsoundy to me) but even
if it´s not possible to "translate" everything coherently all of the time,
there´s still a lot of cumunication through symbolim going on and exactly
what part of that is "music" to you may depend more on how you relate to the
sound and who makes it then to anyhting else.

My cents,
Kas.



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Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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Well, the use of INSTRUMENTS, to communicate on the battlefield is not 
music in its traditional sense.  More along the lines of humans being 
problem solvers and using whatever is at hand to solve said problem, in 
this case keeping formations in sync, signaling attack and retreats, 
and other military gobbledy gook.  Its definatley not a language when 
compared to literal communication(i assume this to be written word).  
Its very limited for todays world, but it did serve its purpose.  Non 
exhistent in todays military world aside from nostalgia and tradition.

I just felt that this was a bad example.

Inregards to literal language, maybe i am using the term incorrectly?

   Every culture and demographic on the planet has developed one, wether 
its taught in the written form or verbally.  Sure you can compare it to 
many things and have a valid argument, but i am more interested in what 
is used in the real world(efficient communication) in this example.

Another fun factoid.  Through the use of math, all written word(literal 
communication) is universal.  Was it guess work that helped us break 
down the meaning of hieroglyphics?(Math makes it very efficient guess 
work!:))  How about the enigma machine via WWII?  It can be argued that 
this device could be used to communicate with any intelligent life in 
the universe.


aLEKs


On Jun 27, 2005, at 2:01 PM, graham miller wrote:

> just to play devil's advocate here, but isn't spoken language just
> 'signals' too? more complex and multifaceted, yes. more open to 
> multiple
> interpretations and ambiguity? yes. but signals none less encoded into
> sound deep within the larynx... ditto for written language... every 
> form of
> communication, which includes art, falls within the scope of 
> semiotics...
>
> i'm not sure there is such a thing as a 'literal language' aside from
> mathematics, the only form of communication that holds true throughout 
> the
> universe (more or less...)
> g.
>
> aleks vasic wrote:
>
>> Well the use of music on the battle field is not "Literal
>> communication"  Its a form of cumminication that would be better 
>> labeld
>> as "Signals"  Because thats what they were.  Just because music can be
>> used in ways other then it was intended to, does not make it a literal
>> language.   I think you can come up with a better example then 
>> military
>> use of music, which at the time was the best way to communicate over
>> small distances.
>>
>> I never defined music or launguage.  Please reread my original post.
>>
>> aLEKs
>>
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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 18:02:25 2005
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just to play devil's advocate here, but isn't spoken language just
'signals' too? more complex and multifaceted, yes. more open to multiple
interpretations and ambiguity? yes. but signals none less encoded into
sound deep within the larynx... ditto for written language... every form of
communication, which includes art, falls within the scope of semiotics...

i'm not sure there is such a thing as a 'literal language' aside from
mathematics, the only form of communication that holds true throughout the
universe (more or less...)
g.

aleks vasic wrote:

> Well the use of music on the battle field is not "Literal
> communication"  Its a form of cumminication that would be better labeld
> as "Signals"  Because thats what they were.  Just because music can be
> used in ways other then it was intended to, does not make it a literal
> language.   I think you can come up with a better example then military
> use of music, which at the time was the best way to communicate over
> small distances.
>
> I never defined music or launguage.  Please reread my original post.
>
> aLEKs
>
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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 17:50:32 2005
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Well the use of music on the battle field is not "Literal 
communication"  Its a form of cumminication that would be better labeld 
as "Signals"  Because thats what they were.  Just because music can be 
used in ways other then it was intended to, does not make it a literal 
language.   I think you can come up with a better example then military 
use of music, which at the time was the best way to communicate over 
small distances.

I never defined music or launguage.  Please reread my original post.


aLEKs

On Jun 23, 2005, at 9:40 PM, Exegene wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, aleks vasic wrote:
> *snip*
>> Literal communication is not music,  music  was never intended to be 
>> so by itself.
>>
>> Music can be reworked into a language very easily.  Then literal 
>> communication could take place, but then it would cease to be music, 
>> and become literal language.
> *snip*
>
> Music has been used to convey specific, agreed on meaning(the word 
> literal has no place describing meaning conveyed without word or text) 
> by means of martial marches, battlefield orders given through drums 
> and brass, communication by australian aborigines through didgeridoo 
> across miles of desert. All blurring the lines in their own, more or 
> less  verbal ways are also yodeling, the whistle language of the 
> canary(?) islands, and throat singing of tuva.
>
> It seems premature and unnecessarily restrictive to outright define 
> music and language as entirely seperate.
>
> -- 
> Dear Patron Saint,
> your lips are lopsided
> www.devo.com/exegene
>
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From ???@??? Mon Jun 27 14:28:45 2005
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Subject: [microsound] [announce] COZYSCSHOP - GOTO10 supercollider workshop
 july2005 - LONDON
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beep
sorry for x,y and z 
beep

---

a SC workshop for the openlab friends and family in London. brought to
you by jan kees of goto10!

SuperCollider is a programming environment for real-time audio
generation. It is one of the finest and most versatile softwares for
musical applications of all kinds, such as algorithmic composition,
interactive performance and sound installations.

In this workshop, primary focus is learning to effectively apply
SuperCollider for our own sound synthesis & performance needs.

---

SCHEDULE
 SATURDAY 
   | 1pm -> 6pm = hands on !
   | 6pm till late = food + beer + jam
  SUNDAY   
   | 1pm -> 6pm = hands on !
   | 6pm till late = bbq + beer

---

please note that although the workshop is free/donation,
please send a mail to book your place so that we can prepare
the workshop for the right number of people. 

---

:DATE:        JULY 2nd-3rd 2005 
:HOST:        openlab http://www.pawfal.org/openlab/
:LANGUAGE:    english
:FEE:         Free free! but donation would be nice:)
:LOCATION:    51-53 city road, london (old street tube
              station,exit 3 | 4)
:FOOD&DRINKS: we will prepare some soft drink but do bring
              your own sandwidth
:HOUSING:     not included
:HARDWARE:    bring your own laptop
:BOOKING:     chun -at- goto10 -dot- org
          
---

http://goto10.org/-/cozyscshop.html

---

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From ???@??? Sun Jun 26 14:16:12 2005
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Subject: Re: [microsound] tastes like microsound
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well said.

it's all very true.  but also very false.  

b/g



--- brine <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> i definitely agree with this sentiment.
> there's an awful lot to be said for wide-eyed
> exploration.
> and at the same time.. a friend once quoted 
> someone-or-other-who-is-regarded-as-'important' as
> having once said 
> something to the effect of "the only reason for
> abject experimentation in 
> art is the purpose of avoiding the straightforward
> expression of an honest 
> emotion."
> i wrote it off immediately, but it stayed with me
> and continues to gnaw at 
> me.
> i think there's something to it. i don't think it's
> dead-on or anything.. 
> but i do think that experimentation for
> experimentation's sake can become as 
> much of a crutch as imitative catharsis for
> imitative catharsis' sake.
> 
> i suppose all i'm really saying is that there's no
> proper way to simplify or 
> formulize the process.
> and i guess it's just best to allow yourself to be
> surprised and try not to 
> get defensive about it.
> 
> i'm sure this has all been said before, too.
> frequently.
> 
> my.02
> -b.
> 
> On 6/10/05, Barry Grant <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > My speculation, based on my own experience, is
> that if one doesn't regard 
> > music (only) as a source of consolation or
> nostaligia, it can become a vast 
> > area to be explored and one can find lots of very
> different things to like 
> > for very different reasons. Just like with
> literature or painting or any 
> > other art form.
> > 
> > Barry
> > 
> >
> 


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From ???@??? Sun Jun 26 02:11:56 2005
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hi,

if you're feeling adventurous, there is a beta version of the free
Ardour multitrack software (ardour.org) floating around the web (try
www.hitsquad.com/smm/programs/ArdourX/ ).

I've only used Ardour under linux, but if the OSX version is up to
scratch then it could be very useful.

regards

omjn

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At 8:38 AM -0700 6/25/05, Phil Thomson wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Aside from Audacity, which i find can only handle about 4 tracks at a
>time, what recommendations can people make for a multitrack app for OS
>X? Hopefully free or cheap. Reply offlist if you think your response
>would pollute the rarified atmosphere of the list.
>
>PT
>
>
>--
>Phil Thomson, BFA, MFA

There used to be a free version of Tracktion by Mackie thats a pretty 
full featured ap-- supports recording many tracks, automation, plugs 
etc. The free deal was extended but I'm not sure what the current 
offering is. Start at the Mackie website. There's a PC version too. 
Rob D


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From: nicola catalano <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xx>
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>Im wondering if anyone on the list has a template for laying out CD jewel
>case inserts for appleworks?
>Ive trawled the web and can only find leads, never an actual template.
>When I make my own, they are always inaccurate in some way.
>TIA
>Rob

i'm not sure i've understood what you need, but i think "cover xp" is what
you're looking for.
can't remember the url now, but going googlin' helps for sure. there's a
pro version (can't remember the cost) and free version too, which is okay
for... well... minimal necessities.
bye.
nic


+  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +

"objective reality is an artificial construction, which has to do with a
hypothetical universalization of a multitude of subjective realities."
philip k. dick



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On Jun 25, 2005, at 11:38 AM, Phil Thomson wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Aside from Audacity, which i find can only handle about 4 tracks at a
> time, what recommendations can people make for a multitrack app for OS
> X? Hopefully free or cheap.

It's not free or cheap, but Bias Deck is the only real thing I've  
seen. Actually Deck LE is only $99, so if it does what you need (and  
I suspect it does), go with that. Faux-hardware fades make me vomit,  
but otherwise it is alright.

- John

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--Boundary_(ID_5T25OQdyIF9jY5TbBd2eNQ)
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i definitely agree with this sentiment.
there's an awful lot to be said for wide-eyed exploration.
and at the same time.. a friend once quoted 
someone-or-other-who-is-regarded-as-'important' as having once said 
something to the effect of "the only reason for abject experimentation in 
art is the purpose of avoiding the straightforward expression of an honest 
emotion."
i wrote it off immediately, but it stayed with me and continues to gnaw at 
me.
i think there's something to it. i don't think it's dead-on or anything.. 
but i do think that experimentation for experimentation's sake can become as 
much of a crutch as imitative catharsis for imitative catharsis' sake.

i suppose all i'm really saying is that there's no proper way to simplify or 
formulize the process.
and i guess it's just best to allow yourself to be surprised and try not to 
get defensive about it.

i'm sure this has all been said before, too. frequently.

my.02
-b.

On 6/10/05, Barry Grant <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> 
> 
> My speculation, based on my own experience, is that if one doesn't regard 
> music (only) as a source of consolation or nostaligia, it can become a vast 
> area to be explored and one can find lots of very different things to like 
> for very different reasons. Just like with literature or painting or any 
> other art form.
> 
> Barry
> 
>
--Boundary_(ID_5T25OQdyIF9jY5TbBd2eNQ)--

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--Boundary_(ID_xFpeRR973WtT8a3dr1tbgg)
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Im wondering if anyone on the list has a template for laying out CD jewel 
case inserts for appleworks?
Ive trawled the web and can only find leads, never an actual template.
When I make my own, they are always inaccurate in some way.
TIA
Rob
--Boundary_(ID_xFpeRR973WtT8a3dr1tbgg)--

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Hi all,

Aside from Audacity, which i find can only handle about 4 tracks at a
time, what recommendations can people make for a multitrack app for OS
X? Hopefully free or cheap. Reply offlist if you think your response
would pollute the rarified atmosphere of the list.

PT


-- 
Phil Thomson, BFA, MFA
010100000110100001101001011011000010000001010100011010000110111101101101011100110110111101101110
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx
http://www.sfu.ca/~pthomson/

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Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:22:22 -0500
From: //jonCates <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] RE: summertime project?
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Scott C

snds fantastic

in support of sandy slippage + pouring snd into snd via summer

// jonCates
# http://www.r4wb1t5.org
# http://www.criticalartware.net
# http://www.systemsapproach.net

On Jun 18, 2005, at 7:42 PM, Scott Carver wrote:
> In the interest of being outside and actually appreciating summer 
> while it's around, what about something performed live, outside, 
> perhaps using sounds from the location of performance? Pick a outdoor 
> location and a time (hopefully a time when it's appropriately 
> summer-ish), and perform a piece, in whatever sense of 'perform' is 
> appropriate and interesting. Screw sitting around in my house with 
> headphones on, if I'm going to do a summer project, I want to make 
> sounds so inextricably entangled with summer they can't be separated, 
> summer and sound pouring into each other until the mixture is 
> impossible to separate.
>
> - Scott C.


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On 6/17/05, nathan dickerson <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> synthetic peices that sound like summer / make one think of summer.
> 
> synthetic summer soundscapes
> 
> what does summer sound like anyway?

Like bright lights and cold wet sand.

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>curiosly zappa used to say: "talking about music is like dancing about
>architecture".

I wish there was more architecture that makes me dance...:)

....

 
°~°
Beyond Good, Evil, AND Nietzsche...
 
http://www.tomoroh.com/
>Music for Connoisseurs<
~°~





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i was wondering if anyone is doing anything with and/or about this?

there seems to be alot of ideas in this thread, and i'm sure they all
fall under some abstract category.. someone just needs to give a name
to this category, pull a finalized list of interested people, and set
a deadline..

this may require going through the thread and pulling out all the
ideas and/or arguments to identify a common theme.

i'm sure someone will offer hosting and a repository, if thats done --
and if they don't i can.

but maybe this was just a discussion about the viability of a project
with a summertime theme and i am confused.

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·.·`·.· . xxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx Geschrieben hat .·.·`·.·'·.. . .  .  .    .

hallo,

have you installed TclTk 8.4 ?

do you have pure-data of some variety installed prior;
if so, it may be the wrong version of TclTk and
discompatibility issues may result.

do read the release notes with cecilia! [i assume you
did - but just in case you forgot or not noticed]


good luck!



        . 1001



> I recently got a new (mac) machine and I am enjoying the splendours of OS
> 10.4.1.
> Im trying to get Cecilia to work, and I just cannot.
> If there is anybody on this list who is successfully using Cecilia with
> Tiger, could you explain to me how this can be done?
> Feel free to email me off list, although it may well be of interest if anyone
> else is using Cecilia and in a similar jam.
> Regards
> Rob
> 


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>I've always maintained there's not enough Zappa in electronic music.
>
>

curiosly zappa used to say: "talking about music is like dancing about
architecture".
cheers.
nic



+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +

{ { d i s c o g r a p h y } }

z_e_l_l_e | nth | line (http://www.12k.com) aug 2001
z_e_l_l_e | rjctd::nw | cubicfabric
(http://www.cubicmusic.com/fabric/index.html) nov 2003
"zen enlightenment lifts life energy" on tu M'p3 (http://www.tu-m.com) jan 2002
"shayozoku" on tu M'p3 (http://www.tu-m.com) sept 2002
"tief herz" on lib. (http://www.cubicmusic.com/fabric/index.html) june 2003
"rjctd 11" on netmage 04 @ the wire 239 (http://www.netmage.it) or
(http://www.thewire.co.uk) jan 2004


UPCOMING

"kitanai" on star6_789' v.2 (http://www.star6789.tk/) TBA


SOUND EXHIBITION

"rjctd 9" (from rjctd::nw) @ Ecoute | Centre Pompidou | Paris, France | 22
Sept, 2004 - 17 Jan, 2005


| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |

REVIEWS http://www.12k.com/line/linepress.htm

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |

"battiti"
daily radio programme (12:00am) on rai-radio3 ::
third channel of italian national broadcasting company
http://www.radio.rai.it/radio3/battiti/index.cfm

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |

columnist on:
"blow up" (monthly) http://www.blowupmagazine.com
"rumore" (monthly) http://www.rumoremag.com

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +

NICOLA CATALANO
c/o MAURIZIO MARTUSCIELLO
Via Sant'Arcangelo di Romagna, 45
00127 Roma
Italia
ph. ++39 06 52370975



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Hey folks, missed most of this thread on account of doing a nice 
roadtrip from SF (nice dinner with Mr. C. ;-)) across the Sierras, 
some days in the UFO regions of NV, to the North Rim of the Grand 
Canyon for a bit, and to central Arizona...  inspiring sights and 
sounds...  anyway...

two-sense:  just meditating on this thread -- I think there are 
(political) concepts of revolutionary and reactionary that map into 
creative spaces (making "political sounds") as following:

revolutionary -- taking creative energies and configuring them in 
ways that (the listener) has not been exposed to or is unexpected to 
them -- propelling the listener into an unfamiliar space -- the locus 
of the unknown is a seed site for revelation/revolution, change, and 
transformation :: dynamic, alive

reactionary -- re-presenting the known in known and recognized 
formulas -- does not move the listener into an unknown space, rather 
into a space of comfort and safety -- supporting a status-quo 
situation :: static, dead

so when the regime presently in power in the US talks about the 
"culture of life," it is nothing they know about, and at best is 
wishful thinking from a polarized ideological situation.

the Liberals fall into status quo in equal measure.

forget the safety of labels of any sort.

seek what you cannot describe to others or circumscribe to yourself...

cheers
jh
-- 
-~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
tech-no-mad::hypnostatic:: exploring the desert once again
domain: http://neoscenes.net
travelog: http://neoscenes.net/travelog/weblog.php
-~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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On Jun 23, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Jon wrote:

>> Well, the answer would then be no. Nor could you create a  
>> sentence, or an act, or a symbol or anything else that could be  
>> identified as political, or anything. If you remove all the  
>> "programming" (and by this I assume you mean the ability to  
>> reference and compare one experience with another), then nothing  
>> means anything and I fail to see the point of even asking about it.
>>
>
> goddam -- kevin -- thank you.  i agree completely.  i'm sick of  
> constant "art in a vacuum" to-ing and fro-ing.  context/programming  
> - it's simple and fundamental to the concept of meaning.  any  
> linguist will tell you.

The reason you hear so much "art in a vacuum" to-ing and fro-ing, I  
suspect, is that people do not want to believe their personal art is  
context dependent, and hence, can never be "timeless". This causes  
feelings of unease regarding one's own sense of mortality, hence the  
large amount of warbling sine wave academic faux-timeless crap  
created in denial (or in spite of) of the truth. Just an idea of course.

- John

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On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Bill Ashline wrote:

*snip*
> I am insisting that outside of an interpretive framework, sound has no
> meaning whatsoever, other than the meaning you wish to place on it,
> which you are certainly allowed to do.  As for being "ultimately
*snip*

But sound is only listened to as music by people, all people have culture, 
and so sound is always listened to inside an interpretive framework. Until 
the no one who heard the tree falling can report back on the meaning of 
what they heard, everyone who hears a tree falling will have no choice but 
to associate with it meaning. Because the framework is always available, 
sound can always be considered music, and music can always have impressed 
and perceived meanings.


-- 
Dear Patron Saint,
your lips are lopsided
www.devo.com/exegene

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From: Exegene <xxxxxxx@xxxx.xxx>
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Damian Stewart wrote:

> How do you get across political messages in music which has no lyrics and 
> which has no voice samples?
*snip*

This may be akin to asking "how do I give a moving speech without using 
any words or gestures?" or "how do I build a chair without using my hands 
or any tools?"

It has by now been pointed out enough that context matters. It sounds like 
you are approaching the issue with a nod to the universal, and so refuse 
any ephemera such as the mentioned recording of barcelonans banging away 
in reaction to the most noxious current example of western imperialism 
because, in terms specific to this recording, nobody fifty years ago or 
almost nobody today in the usa or probably nobody in five hundred years 
and so on will be able to pick up on the very precise intended meaning, 
that is, alyrical music requring an understanding of real world context to 
convey meaning is not univerally understandable, is less meaningful than 
it could or is wished to be. But, while it is the rare piece of 
information with popular currency that lasts the ages, there have always 
been and will always be unfortunately disposable ideas and reflections of 
ideas; the specific availablility of identity of an ephemerum(?) may not 
be universal, but the presence of unforeseeable ephemera is. A sample of, 
say, GWB provides the hooks biting into the flesh of the listener strung 
to the artist's intended meaning in a way similar to provision by the 
words you read at this very moment, indeed relevant samples and related 
can be thought of as the words available to modern music.

To return to analogy, a conscious minor restriction in words allowed can 
make for an interesting experiment(Try spending some time in normal 
conversation without saying the words "I", "me", "my", or "mine." Bonus 
points for creativity.), a wordless conversation can make for a fulfilling 
session of expression while causing the casual onlooker to roll their 
eyes, but engaging in more or less normal declaration or discourse without 
any word available in any dictionary is sheer foolishness.

-- 
Dear Patron Saint,
your lips are lopsided
www.devo.com/exegene

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From: Exegene <xxxxxxx@xxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, aleks vasic wrote:
*snip*
> Literal communication is not music,  music  was never intended to be so by 
> itself.
>
> Music can be reworked into a language very easily.  Then literal 
> communication could take place, but then it would cease to be music, and 
> become literal language.
*snip*

Music has been used to convey specific, agreed on meaning(the word 
literal has no place describing meaning conveyed without word or text) by 
means of martial marches, battlefield orders given through drums and 
brass, communication by australian aborigines through didgeridoo across 
miles of desert. All blurring the lines in their own, more or less  verbal 
ways are also yodeling, the whistle language of the canary(?) islands, and 
throat singing of tuva.

It seems premature and unnecessarily restrictive to outright 
define music and language as entirely seperate.

-- 
Dear Patron Saint,
your lips are lopsided
www.devo.com/exegene

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Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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>fundamental to the concept of meaning.
-But this depends on the perspective within which it is presented.

AvS

  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
......................................................................

  `    |Schreck Ensemble    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +

    `  |# -laboratory for live electro-acoustic music- #            |
       |             http://www.schreck.nl/                         |
       |             http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/                 |
     ` *===========================================================++
     ` |Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html  |
     ` |Samples      http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html   |
     ` |Patches      http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html    |
     ` |Videos       http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html  |

     ` |Scores       http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html |

       *===========================================================++
  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
......................................................................



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From ???@??? Thu Jun 23 23:29:20 2005
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> Well, the answer would then be no. Nor could you create a sentence, or 
> an act, or a symbol or anything else that could be identified as 
> political, or anything. If you remove all the "programming" (and by 
> this I assume you mean the ability to reference and compare one 
> experience with another), then nothing means anything and I fail to 
> see the point of even asking about it.

goddam -- kevin -- thank you.  i agree completely.  i'm sick of 
constant "art in a vacuum" to-ing and fro-ing.  context/programming - 
it's simple and fundamental to the concept of meaning.  any linguist 
will tell you.




---
dizzydonor.org


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From ???@??? Thu Jun 23 21:08:35 2005
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From: Derek Mason <xxxxx.xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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How can one define an emotion?

You can't.  You can describe the action, or how it has affect/effected you.  Poets try to describe the feeling, the sensation but can only attempt to describe the picture/ to create a picture to better understand.

So, through music can we discribe the emotion of summer?  The feeling one gets through memory?




----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Ponto" <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:40:29 -0700

> 
> On Jun 23, 2005, at 12:56 AM, Bill Ashline wrote:
> > The only way you get the
> > hell out of the way when a bus sounds its horn is because you've been
> > programmed to read that sound as a warning and an alert.  That's
> > culture, of course, but without that, it's just another sound.  So
> > back to the original question, can you create a sound that contains an
> > inherent politics outside of a discursive form that identifies it as
> > such?  I have yet to see one solitary example that demonstrates such a
> > possibility.
> 
> 
> Well, the answer would then be no. Nor could you create a sentence, 
> or an act, or a symbol or anything else that could be identified as 
> political, or anything. If you remove all the "programming" (and by 
> this I assume you mean the ability to reference and compare one 
> experience with another), then nothing means anything and I fail to 
> see the point of even asking about it.
> 
> 
> k
> 
> 
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From ???@??? Thu Jun 23 20:40:34 2005
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On Jun 23, 2005, at 12:56 AM, Bill Ashline wrote:
> The only way you get the
> hell out of the way when a bus sounds its horn is because you've been
> programmed to read that sound as a warning and an alert.  That's
> culture, of course, but without that, it's just another sound.  So
> back to the original question, can you create a sound that contains an
> inherent politics outside of a discursive form that identifies it as
> such?  I have yet to see one solitary example that demonstrates such a
> possibility.


Well, the answer would then be no. Nor could you create a sentence, or 
an act, or a symbol or anything else that could be identified as 
political, or anything. If you remove all the "programming" (and by 
this I assume you mean the ability to reference and compare one 
experience with another), then nothing means anything and I fail to see 
the point of even asking about it.


k


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From: Arie van Schutterhoef <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] what electronic music communicates [was: being
 'political']
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>"headspaces" (something that music is undoubtedly great at communicating)
>as a >type of feeling.
-A.K.A.: hangover...

AvS

  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
......................................................................

  `    |Schreck Ensemble    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +

    `  |# -laboratory for live electro-acoustic music- #            |
       |             http://www.schreck.nl/                         |
       |             http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/                 |
     ` *===========================================================++
     ` |Compositions http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/compo.html  |
     ` |Samples      http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/samp.html   |
     ` |Patches      http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/pat.html    |
     ` |Videos       http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/video.html  |

     ` |Scores       http://www.xs4all.nl/~schreck/html/scores.html |

       *===========================================================++
  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
......................................................................



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On 6/23/05, Mr.D <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> I've always maintained there's not enough Zappa in electronic music.

Seriously.


On 6/23/05, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
> I think electtronic music is about communicating headspaces, actually.

If I understand what you're referring to here (and I think I do),
we're in agreement. I would classify "headspaces" (something that
music is undoubtedly great at communicating) as a type of feeling.

- QF8
http://scatterbrain.raygunarmy.com/

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Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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Bill Ashline wrote:
> > I am insisting that outside of an interpretive
> framework, sound has no
> 
> Damian Stewart replied: Can we even speak
meaningfully of sound 'outside of
> an interpretive 
> framework'?
> 
> Doesn't this just mean sound that is heard by no-one
> and/or recorded in 
> no way? (Or recorded and not listened to.)
> 
> Can we say anything useful about or via this
> concept?

I think this very question might have been behind my
initial motivations for getting into this thread. When
I said that sound is always being interpreted or
always tending to become meaningful and then recounted
my story of Derrida, I was basically saying that we
are involved in a autonomously renewing poetic
process. I do not agree that we have the unshakeable
knowledge to say that anything is inherently without
meaning, anything. My take on Derrida (as it relates
by analogy to this issue) might be a bit "talmudic"
but I take the undecidability (between there being a
tending toward meaning and there being no one true
meaning) in the strictest sense. When we declare
something to be inherently without meaning we have put
it in a place already. We deny it the possibility of
having a voice. Not allowing that something may have a
voice is the first step in it's exploitation. So my
own approach to sound is rather to wait and listen. 

--- Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:




                
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From ???@??? Thu Jun 23 14:54:55 2005
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I've always maintained there's not enough Zappa in electronic music.

On Jun 23, 2005, at 5:42 AM, Damian Stewart wrote:

> A response I'm working towards in my own music is the giggle.. If I  
> write something and kind of let myself get carried away without  
> thinking too much, and then at some point in the future sudden  
> listen critically and find myself giggling, then I feel like I'm  
> doing something interesting. Bloody hard to bring about that state  
> of mind though.
>
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It may have no vocal content itself, but it references vocal content.  
Already I have an idea of what this work probably communicates, only  
knowing it's based on a religious-bound theme. :)

On Jun 22, 2005, at 11:31 PM, Jon wrote:

>
>
> i don't know if you have heard it or have access to it, but john  
> baker (of the bbc radiophonic workshop) has a piece with a very  
> clear, well-defined and instantly decodable message -- with no use  
> of vocal material.  i think you will find it enriching as an  
> example, particularly in its simplicity -- there is no need to  
> theorise over it one bit to get what it means.  (and let's face  
> it.  if you want it to be widely legible, it needs to be clear.   
> you can't rely on derrida to create your public.)
>
> the tune in question is merely "o come all ye faithful" (a popular  
> christmas carol) played by the bell of a cash register drawer.   
> simple and way more effective (and powerful) than any sine wave  
> composition i've ever heard.
>
> "christmas commercial" - john baker.
>
>
>
>
> ---
> dizzydonor.org
>
>
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Subject: Re: [microsound] Re: being 'political' in non-verbal music
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He believes deeply in broken == good. He likes finding
busted sound gear in dumpsters

he ought to be careful not get caught inside! but
seriously, i guess i must say this interests me,
enough so that my latest cdr release called "realism
and the revolution in recorded sound" is all made with
defective items. the heap of the pile was the sound
card i got bilked for 200 bucks for on ebay...but more
on that in the official announcement later...thanks
for your posts damian...  jeff gbk

--- Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:




                
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The problem with non-verbal music being percieved as political is that
the listener experience can be so highly subjective (and maybe
intuitive) that it doesn't particularly engender a similar wide scale
response. I think *genres* of music, on the macro-level, can create an
atmosphere where people can become highly politicized (like the more
political sides of techno in the US and EU).


                
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From: Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Re: being 'political' in non-verbal music
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Kassen wrote:
> I second you on Linux though, some people still use Amigas and Ataris for
> music too, much to my delight.

My friend Warwick does a solo show involving a Commodone Vic-20 and a 
guitar and a collection of effects units and mixers and toys in various 
states of disrepair.

He believes deeply in broken == good. He likes finding busted sound gear 
in dumpsters and 'seeing what happens' when he plugs input into it. Or 
rewires it and then plugs input into it. He tries not to use musical 
devices in the ways that they were intended.. almost to the point of 
reading the manual and then deliberately avoiding doing the things it 
tells you to do.

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 23 13:03:10 2005
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Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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Bill Ashline wrote:
> I am insisting that outside of an interpretive framework, sound has no

Can we even speak meaningfully of sound 'outside of an interpretive 
framework'?

Doesn't this just mean sound that is heard by no-one and/or recorded in 
no way? (Or recorded and not listened to.)

Can we say anything useful about or via this concept?

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 23 12:52:21 2005
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Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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tobias c. van Veen wrote:

> If one were to broadcast at extremely high volume piercing sinewaves in a
> centre of a citycore, the polis would evacuate if nothing could be done
> about it.

Although isn't this more a matter of performance than of composition? 
The same piece at lower volume wouldn't have nearly the same effect.

You could achieve the same thing with a piece of techno music. Hell, you 
could do the same with a piece of pop. I know which would drive me out 
faster.

In this instance I think it is nothing inherent in the music itself, it 
is in the performance of the music, specifically the volume of the 
performance. By being very bloody loud you are making a political 
statement just like that. It really doesn't matter what you are being 
loud /with/.

I spent a little while in Indonesia, and it became apparent to my friend 
after a while (he shared this revelation with me and it seems to make 
sense) that having a big stereo was a status symbol over there for the 
very reason that you could make louder noise than your neighbour. 
Universally, car stereos, ghettoblasters, and shop radios were turned up 
FULL VOLUME, no matter how difficult it made it to talk, or how 
distorted they were. If you could play it loud, then show it off.

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From ???@??? Thu Jun 23 12:43:01 2005
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Subject: Re: [microsound] what electronic music communicates [was: being
 'political']
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Quintus Frimschlowder VIII wrote:
> your listeners uniformly. Music is generally better-suited to communicating 
> feelings, rather than specific words and non-musical concepts. It's context 

I think electtronic music is about communicating headspaces, actually. 
One of the things that make electronic music unique is concentrated 
mental space... this is especially the case techno/electronica, 
*especially* Wolfgang Voight style stuff where the music is basically 
non-structural, just a small gesture repeated for given interpretations 
of 'repeated'. What you've got is a small segment of time that 
represents a much much larger chunk of refinement down to a single 
experience..

When I compose, I will keep on working on a piece until I can listen to 
it the whole way through without wanting to make changes. IE, until I'm 
happy with the exact psychoacoustic effects it has on me... I still see 
charges of 'inhumanity' and 'soullessness' levelled at electronic music, 
which is ironic because the noises that make their way onto a recording 
usually represent refinement to create a noise that at least one person 
on the planet finds wonderful and amazing.

Although... one of the strengths of Aphex Twin's work is that he doesn't 
do too much in the way of refining like this. Sometimes listening to his 
work I get the sense that it has been written utterly irreverently.. 
sitting in a studio he just lays something down, lays something else 
over the top with minimal thought, thinking to himself 'yeah! that 
sounds good! yeah! uhhrrm... all right, now i'll squeal like a pig over 
the top' or whatever, does that, goes 'yeah! cool!' and calls it a night 
and a track.

A response I'm working towards in my own music is the giggle.. If I 
write something and kind of let myself get carried away without thinking 
too much, and then at some point in the future sudden listen critically 
and find myself giggling, then I feel like I'm doing something 
interesting. Bloody hard to bring about that state of mind though.

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Subject: Re: [microsound] Re: being 'political' in non-verbal music
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David Powers wrote:
> What is much more important is political involvement in your nation, 
> working for governments that don't push global economic strategies that 
> make these exploitive factories profitable and inevitable.

To bring about governmental/societal/systemic change you have to 
challenge the headspace of the population, their mental environment. 
That is part of our job as artists, I think.

I'm concerned about the people in the rest of New Zealand. They are 
increasingly sleepwalking consumption machines. I want to bonk them over 
the head. I think the way I am best at communicating anything is through 
music. I want to work toward creating consciousness through the music I 
make, but I don't want to do it through lyrics because I believe lyrics 
can dilute and destroy some very amazing musical experiences. (Tangent - 
there's a track on the Rhythm & Sound self-titled album, the only one 
with lyrics.. there's a point where the lyricist stops talking for two 
or three minutes, allowing the music to just wander for a while; then he 
comes back. The point where he comes back is a jolt, tipping you right 
out of the musical space that just the music has transferred you to. I 
think this is always what lyrics do.)

I have a plan (muahaha), and that is to save up some money and buy some 
advertising time on ZM (the commercial pop shite network radio here), 
and use the advertising time to play sonic art, ideally of an overtly 
anti-consumerist nature. If I can do this without words, it will be even 
more effective.

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From: Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Re: being 'political' in non-verbal music - an
 example?
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Josh Ronsen wrote:
> I don’t think the question is how can wordless music
> have a political meaning, but how can music made that
> is so entrenched in the current economic worldview
> effectively question that worldview.

One gains the ability to be conscious of an environment/worldview/set of 
cultural assumptions when one experiences something else. I make my 
music using technology, yes, but I stay out of the consumption cycles, 
and I try and make it being as aware as possible of the ways I am 
affected by my society. Society teaches me to not care, to be excited 
about trivial things, to hide my emotions. In the music I wrote I used 
to unconsciously reflect these ideas. Now I'm trying to comment on and 
critique it.

The other day I wrote this: http://www.frey.co.nz/frey/audio/frey-loveah.mp3

Ideally you can hear what was going through my mind. If you can't, 
here's some context: it was written in response to a compilation of 
singer-songwriter style songs, heavily lyrical, very 'pretty.' One thing 
that really pisses me off about the whole singer-singwriter genre (lone 
guitarist + 'meaningful' vocals) is that it's pretty universally singing 
about romantic love using complex metaphor to make it seem much more 
sophisticated than it actually is. It's the genre considered the most 
'meaningful' or the most 'human' to some and to me it's impenetrable 
words against harmonically backward music. (Not that Ani DiFranco can't 
move me to tears sometimes, but we're all hypocrites, it's part of being 
capitalists.)

There are lyrics in this, yes; the political content isn't in the lyrics 
themselves, it's in how the lyrics sit against the music/context/genre 
itself. The first verse is basically 'I love you' but with weird, almost 
mentally unstable-sounding emphasis on the 'love', the phrase 
disintegrating into a kind of a throaty strangulation sound. The second 
verse is 'I love you, your breasts are very large and jubbly.'

What is my point? I'm not sure that I have one. Would this music be as 
political without the lyrics? Would it be engaging, would it just be 
'bad music'? Would its meaning be as clear? This isn't really much of an 
example because the lyrics are as fundamental to its parody of the 
singer-songwriter genre as can be. An instrumental version of this song 
would be in many very important ways a different piece of music.

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Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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> back to the original question, can you create a
> sound that contains an inherent politics outside of
a discursive form that identifies it as such? I have
yet to see one solitary example that demonstrates such
a possibility.

in vico's scienza nuova he attempted to describe the
origin of language via the clap of thunder. the
thunder-clap is physically percievable by all in the
vicinity/community. it often inspires fear because it
is so loud. at one time it was louder than any sound a
human being could make. arguably, a good thunder may
still be louder as any attack than any we can create
electronically using a membrane. maybe the crash of
speeding vehicles approaches this decibel level and
certainly nuclear weapons take the prize for volume.
but, to not stray too far from the question at hand,
the thunder always still means generally one thing on
planet earth!  

  




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From ???@??? Thu Jun 23 08:28:22 2005
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Bill Ashline;

> And
> using an Apple is an alternative to the dominance of Windows though
> not as politically preferable as using Linux.  So using an apple
> machine is somewhat counterhegemonic all the while supporting the
> hegemonic "aspirations" of Apple.

A good friend of mine said about companies like Apple and The Bodyshop (in a
mock voice);

"Yes, I only support the smaller multinationals".

Much more interesting from this perspective to me is are the communities of
artists who gather outdated computer equipment. Video-wall build of monitors
that would otherwise have been thrown away, controlled by a central Linux
pc, blasting out Ascii art, "chillout" areas with 8bit dos pinball games and
the constant knowledge that the machines that are entertaining you were
considdered trash a few days ago.... One didn´t work, I frowned and turned
it upside down. The curator or artist came up to me, asking wether I needed
a screwdriver.

I´m all for the fall of the MS empire, but let´s not pretend Apple is in it
out of charity. Were Apple to gain that position many people that currently
enjoy them wouldn´t be able to afford computers anymore due to closed
hardware arteficially keeping the price up. I don´t see Apple as any more
politically preferable then -say- Silicon Graphics.

I second you on Linux though, some people still use Amigas and Ataris for
music too, much to my delight.

Yours,
Kas.



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 "There is no outside."  

which is very often accompanied by the contention that
there is nothing "inside"--namely that my own pysche
is constructed by culture etc. but what do we really
know? i prefer to say it is possible to reconstruct
myself. i also prefer to say there might be messages
out there we do not yet understand. how do we tune
into frequencies that might be out of our range (ah,
which dimension/vector of range, eh?)

  I
> have no idea what you're trying to say there.

this is to me a sign of moving in the right direction!
some decades ago when we were all getting
"post-modern" i hit upon the formula "why is it that
when i have explained myself clearly to you that i
still remain incomprehensible to myself?" back then i
was describing my sense of alienation from critical
discourse. but really i had stumbled into a kind of
cave or cave-painting of myself. there is finally
always something that resists expression that remains
outside saying, that resembles in it's silence before
our questioning what is either a great gift given by
no one or a pointless curse wired through mattter
itself. 

is lyotard's cave any different than plato's? the
legende of er?

in a strange way, language itself can be a lot like
serialism.

--Jeff Gburek

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On 6/23/05, jeff gburek <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> this paraphrase from lyotard has something that i do
> find interesting but i don't read the historicization
> of the "distinction" to be so distant and proscribed
> by discourse on art or linguistics. the act of
> interpretation upon seeing the cave painting is rather
> instantaneous.

The point from Lyotard is that you have phenomena but the categories
for organizing the phenomena are part of human knowledge, part of
culture, if you will.  We often assume these categories in advance
without realizing that phenomena are what they are first of all and
then a use-value for human understanding later.  In Nietzsche's terms,
we made up the category and then we forgot that we made it up.  Then,
we forgot that we forgot.  Then it became culture.  We assumed that
the meaning of sound had always accompanied its occurence, but we
simply hadn't remembered far back enough.  We forgot our own
invention--the rhetoric that gave meaning to the sonic sign.  So an
inscription is an inscription first of all and a message after a
certain framework of understanding is invented.  the same for sound. 
Which applies to your example of the bus.  The only way you get the
hell out of the way when a bus sounds its horn is because you've been
programmed to read that sound as a warning and an alert.  That's
culture, of course, but without that, it's just another sound.  So
back to the original question, can you create a sound that contains an
inherent politics outside of a discursive form that identifies it as
such?  I have yet to see one solitary example that demonstrates such a
possibility.

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On 6/23/05, jeff gburek <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> 
> clear, but that's not exactly what you said and the
> drift of your statements accumulated in the direction
> of what i find to be the ultimately unjustifiable and
> and unsupportable notion that sounds don't have any
> meaning. 

I am insisting that outside of an interpretive framework, sound has no
meaning whatsoever, other than the meaning you wish to place on it,
which you are certainly allowed to do.  As for being "ultimately
unjustifiable and unsupportable," I'd say that about the idea that
sound has an inherent meaning outside of culture.  Your point was that
it has a "potential for meaning."  If it has a "potential," this means
that there isn't one in advance and that you are agreeing with my
position.  Feel free to produce sound in such a way that's political
but without the rhetoric or the artist statement being available, to
see as such, no listener, unless you are exploiting the obvious codes
like the  cash register and "Come All Ye Faithful," is going to hear
an inherent politics.


>mine is a political stance that seeks to
> empower sound and those who do not feel yet that sound
> can say something outside of being recognized by a
> powerful elite, which, being driven to that
> conclusion, is the same "cultural" cul-de-sac all
> post-modernism ends up in: stale academic
> conceptualism. if you only have culture as the final
> arbiter then an individual who says something
> different has nothing else to do but to declare a
> break with culture. 

But the break with culture is always already "cultural."  It's already
part of the fabric of cultural resistance, which has a very long
history.  There is no outside.  You're not being clear in your sweep
about postmodernism and academic conceptualism.  I have no idea what
you're trying to say there.

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The politics comes later.
> > Paraphrasing Lyotard:  a cave dweller inscribes a
> figure on the wall
> > inside a cave.  Is it art?  Is it language?  It is
> neither.  The
> > distinction will come later.
> >

this paraphrase from lyotard has something that i do
find interesting but i don't read the historicization
of the "distinction" to be so distant and proscribed
by discourse on art or linguistics. the act of
interpretation upon seeing the cave painting is rather
instantaneous. the interpretations will depend on
whether or not the immediate phenomenon means
something for me personally. one never questions a
bus's horn as it goes off, you just look fast and get
the fuck out of the way. if i come from planet
xenon265 where there are no such things as buses, i
might get creamed. but the ability to interpret signs
depends on the fact we are familiar with the reality
of communication and that we percieve an intention.
humanity has long percieved propriety in terms of a
model of what "nature" does until it evolved to only
look for the "laws" of nature. once you have begun to
look in this direction, the cultural becomes
percievable as a kind of collapsed hierarchy with the
natural universe. better, let's call it a horizontal
hierarchy, no more significant than any other layers
in the terrestrial sedimental compaction. we can
percieve all sounds as potentially communicative but
we may sometimes be wrong about the nature of the
transmission.  throughgout our lives we become
familiar with more and more languages or
langauage-like systems. that we inteptret a sound as
music is an immediate assessment of the sound's
meaning or the intention of the one who makes the
sound. the political act comes when we organize and
inject priorities into the sound or music. these
priorities are "preset" systems, if you will. these
indeed do come later to be imposed on the phenomenon
as we judge what is "more meaningful" to us and the
problems start to occur when one assumes the "presets"
are of the order of nature--which is how all the
unexplainable arbitrariness of culture is presented to
children: this is just the way it is. but this is not
the truth.   

--- aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:

> Who's distinction?  Yours, mine, we/ours?  We have
> no point of 
> reference.  Only the creator of the image has it. 
> We can only percieve 
> to know what distinction/purpose it really had.  But
> in the end that 
> only further supports your rationale on the whole
> subject.
> 
> 
> aLEKs
> 
> >  
> >
> 
> 
>
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The polis in and of itself requires its surrounds as
inherent to its boundary construction; culture is
inseparable from the gesture of exclusion necessary
for the polis. High volume sound as tactical
dispersion method of polis-itics might 
drive
some to some mad nomadism -- or another city.

- tV


tobias, i appreciate the sounding out of the
greco-roots of these concepts. it reminds me what
attali said: that we live in the ritual,
representational and repetitive eras all at once--or
at least traces of the previous era persist. maybe
nomadism would be the result of the sonic terror but
more likely would be a violence of another kind to
reduce the sound to ash, of silencing anyone who
crossed the line...

--jeff gburek 

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> >I think it is a big
> > mistake to decide that sound has no meaning. I
> think
> > it is more true to say there is always the
> potential
> > to become meaningful.
> 
> But the idea that sound has the "potential" to
> become meaningful
> assumes already that it isn't  meaningful outside of
> its potential,
> which is exactly my point.


clear, but that's not exactly what you said and the
drift of your statements accumulated in the direction
of what i find to be the ultimately unjustifiable and
and unsupportable notion that sounds don't have any
meaning. mine is a political stance that seeks to
empower sound and those who do not feel yet that sound
can say something outside of being recognized by a
powerful elite, which, being driven to that
conclusion, is the same "cultural" cul-de-sac all
post-modernism ends up in: stale academic
conceptualism. if you only have culture as the final
arbiter then an individual who says something
different has nothing else to do but to declare a
break with culture. not only popular artists of the
seventies did this but also avant-gardists of that era
were more populist (bueys and pasolini for example,
although i have my own critiques of their behaviour as
well). what is disturbing most is that today's
avant-gardist does not even try to make such a break.
they are in with the institution. if you bill or
anyone would like to read a a review i have written of
the cartsen nicolai installation here at the neu
nationale gallerie, i may be willing to post it, as
the above are all concerns that enter into my thought
over it's potential meaninglessness. 

--Jeff Gburek






                
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From ???@??? Thu Jun 23 06:25:51 2005
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i don't know if you have heard it or have access to it, but john baker 
(of the bbc radiophonic workshop) has a piece with a very clear, 
well-defined and instantly decodable message -- with no use of vocal 
material.  i think you will find it enriching as an example, 
particularly in its simplicity -- there is no need to theorise over it 
one bit to get what it means.  (and let's face it.  if you want it to 
be widely legible, it needs to be clear.  you can't rely on derrida to 
create your public.)

the tune in question is merely "o come all ye faithful" (a popular 
christmas carol) played by the bell of a cash register drawer.  simple 
and way more effective (and powerful) than any sine wave composition 
i've ever heard.

"christmas commercial" - john baker.




---
dizzydonor.org


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On 6/23/05, tobias c. van Veen <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xx> wrote:

> If one were to broadcast at extremely high volume piercing sinewaves in a
> centre of a citycore, the polis would evacuate if nothing could be done
> about it.

How would we know that, tobias?  Are we assuming in this speculation
that there's a distinction between noise and music such that if noise
was played very loudly within a community for a certain duration and
was inescapable that it would have the political dimension of
dispersing a community?  But doesn't this already assume a culture
that can distinguish the difference between noise and music such that
the intervening noise would become intolerable?  As you may recall, I
did play sine waves very loudly one day in a home in the US and it
didn't cause the rest of the residents to vacate.  It caused them to
check out which room had tripped a fire alarm, and so the sine wave is
always already going to be metonymically connected to the fire alert
(probably), and so I'd speculate a civic act to prevent an inferno
from taking place is a more likely outcome.

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On 6/23/05, graham miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
> aren't letters just shapes and lines, nothing more? abstract graphics on a
> empty background?

Yes, that's right.  That is fundamentally what they are.  They only
gain meaning within a landscape of signification, which is what we
call culture.

> 
> one person's written language is another person's hieroglyphics...

yes, in  a banal way, this is true.  Except by now, we know that
different languages are languages not heiroglyphics because we've had
enough education to know what these symbols might mean.

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On 6/22/05, Josh Ronsen <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> I don't think the question is how can wordless music
> have a political meaning, but how can music made that
> is so entrenched in the current economic worldview
> effectively question that worldview.

Impressively written question here.  Nicely stated.  But I think the
situation about using the Apple computer is a bit more complex.  LCD
screens are manufactured in Korea, primarily, the twelfth largest
industrial economy in the world with a high standard of living.  And
using an Apple is an alternative to the dominance of Windows though
not as politically preferable as using Linux.  So using an apple
machine is somewhat counterhegemonic all the while supporting the
hegemonic "aspirations" of Apple.  Also, I shouldn't have to mention
that popular music isn't always the inert status quo-supporting form
that's being applied here.  A lot of popular music has been
politically counterhegemonic too.  A lot of the popular music of the
sixties and seventies for example.

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On 6/22/05, john saylor <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> if you read that group of words devoid of the message inherent in
> them, they're only words.
> if you view that group of colors and shapes devoid of the message
> inherent in them, they're only colors and shapes.

Sounds are not of the same order as linguistic signs.  are you are
saying is that words (linguistic signs) are arbitrary.  I don't
disagree.

> 
> what does this phrase mean:
> 'devoid of the message inherent in them'
> ?
> 
> what is the inherent message in sounds?

Well, read the context :-)  the statement made was that there was some
"music" that involved the clanging of silverware, which outside of the
declaration that they were made in opposition to the Iraq war would
not be inherently pregnant with such meaning, right?  Until those
sounds are collected under that message, as a listener, you don't
attach such intentionality, right?

> why does it matter if it's art or language? what is the difference
> between art and language? why is that distinction important?
> 

Lyotard's point is that signs cannot be taken as such outside of
culture.  It's culture that decides whether a sign is art or language
just as it is culture that decides if sounds are to be interpreted
politically.

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On 6/22/05, jeff gburek <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> 
> All sounds occur in a context. More specifically, all
> sounds occur in the primordial context of "hearing".
> So sounds are, like linguistic signs, always tending
> toward contextualization(s) and therefore tending
> toward meaning(s). None of this occurs in isolation. I
> recall from live Derrida "set" hearing him say (in
> English, and I quote from memory) "This idea that the
> sign is detachable from the signifier, this is
> insignificance itself". 

But Derrida also talked about the "arbitrariness" of the sign, which
means that no sign attends inherently to any particular meaning but
comes about, rather, through a social practice.  It is a mistake as
well to assume that linguistic signs and sonic ones are of the same
order.  They are nto.

>I think it is a big
> mistake to decide that sound has no meaning. I think
> it is more true to say there is always the potential
> to become meaningful.

But the idea that sound has the "potential" to become meaningful
assumes already that it isn't  meaningful outside of its potential,
which is exactly my point.

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Though music has been recently used as a weapon.  Brings this article to mind.  Wish I still had an active link to prove it legit but at least I copied the text:
 
 
'Tortured' with Rap??   
Mon Dec 22,10:04 AM ET 
 
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Lebanese Mohammed Jaber said he went to Iraq on a pilgrimage to Muslim holy sites, he ended up being "tortured" with loud rap music by U.S. troops suspicious he might be a foreign fighter against their occupation. 
 
Jaber said an Iraqi taxi driver handed him and three friends over to U.S. troops for $100 each in April apiece as fighters for ousted Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. 
 
"They asked us why we were there and if we came to fight them. But we said we came only to visit the holy sites in Kerbala," he told Reuters. 
 
"They didn't torture us physically but they did psychologically by raising the volume of rap music all day until it became unbearable and by withholding food," he said. 
 
But Jaber said he kept one secret from his captors, fearing the treatment could get worse. 
"I mean I like rap, just imagine them playing jazz." 
 
U.S.-led forces in Iraq freed Jaber and sent him and seven other Arab detainees home on Saturday.
 
 
 
graham miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
on sonic weapons:

http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/153_sonicweapons.shtml

http://www.rense.com/general/soundwaves.htm

sound? yes. but music?

is it important to distinguish?

g.

"tobias c. van Veen" wrote:

>
> High volume sound as tactical dispersion method of polis-itics might drive
> some to some mad nomadism -- or another city.
>
> - tV
>
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i'd like to drop the gay bomb on the white house:)

Nicolas Grenier wrote:

> Reach out for your tinfoil hat people...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frey_effect
>
> And make sure to check out the gay bomb article linked there. These are great subversion tools, aren't they?


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Reach out for your tinfoil hat people...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frey_effect
 
And make sure to check out the gay bomb article linked there. These are great subversion tools, aren't they? 


graham miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> a écrit :on sonic weapons:

http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/153_sonicweapons.shtml

http://www.rense.com/general/soundwaves.htm

sound? yes. but music?

is it important to distinguish?

g.

"tobias c. van Veen" wrote:

>
> High volume sound as tactical dispersion method of polis-itics might drive
> some to some mad nomadism -- or another city.
>
> - tV
>
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on sonic weapons:

http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/153_sonicweapons.shtml

http://www.rense.com/general/soundwaves.htm

sound? yes. but music?

is it important to distinguish?

g.

"tobias c. van Veen" wrote:

>
> High volume sound as tactical dispersion method of polis-itics might drive
> some to some mad nomadism -- or another city.
>
> - tV
>
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interesting... i would say constructs of masculine and feminine are just
as learned as anything, since different societies have their own views on
what signifies 'masculine' or 'feminine'... that said, there are clear
objective biological differences in the chemical makeup of the sexes,
which undoubtedly influence emotion and thought processes... could
hormones manifest themselves in music? sure. or is labeling loud and
aggressive music 'masculine' or 'testosterone-fueled' simply put us back
into the same trappings? then again, why the long hair and makeup in
so-called macho musics of the eighties, such as speed metal? once again,
a  complex and multifaceted 1000 page ethnomusicological discussion with
probably no clear-cut answer...

g.

p.s. boys makes blue music. girls make pink music. nuff said.

"Mr.D" wrote:

>
> there was a big discussion on some list i was on way back that pitted
> the idea of Masculine and Feminine music, that there was a
> discernible *audible* difference.


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From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 20:29:54 2005
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From: "tobias c. van Veen" <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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> Nice to see you gettin' political there, Graham, but you're not really
> getting my point.  There's nothing inherently political in sound and
> it's arrangements.  It's the culture that surrounds it.


If one were to broadcast at extremely high volume piercing sinewaves in a
centre of a citycore, the polis would evacuate if nothing could be done
about it.

The centrism of gathering which all politics revolves around -- the polis as
citystate, also the philosophical gesture of enclosure, around oikos, the
hearth, and its connection to the polis, the city, the state -- would be
disrupted.

The polis in and of itself requires its surrounds as inherent to its
boundary construction; culture is inseparable from the gesture of exclusion
necessary for the polis.

High volume sound as tactical dispersion method of polis-itics might drive
some to some mad nomadism -- or another city.

- tV




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From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 20:21:40 2005
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i want to preface this: john saylor brought up cage, not me! ;)

there was a period in Cage's life where he wrote his compositions in  
accordance with his own worldview. the structures and forms he used  
supported his personal feelings of societal control and healthy  
living... an example would be the removal of any 'conductor' from a  
large ensemble piece, or the way instruments in the Number Pieces  
were meant to play as if they were solo parts, but that still coexist  
in harmony with all the other parts as a unified (and  
interpenetrating) whole.

that said, Cage's political views could only REALLY be deciphered if  
you knew the musicology behind it. if you knew that Cage was  
interested in utopian anarchy and the philosophy of thoreau and bucky  
fuller, you might be able to hear that in these pieces. i doubt Cage  
wanted that result, however. he only wrote music as it occurred to  
him as something he does, which would naturally coincide with his own  
intersecting philosophical ideas.

that is how i think 'political music without words' happens, because  
i agree, music as sound is nothing more than music as sound. anything  
beyond that is due to an interpretation by a human mind, which  
contextualizes it, and the more context the more meaning it may  
gain... or lose. there is no inherent meaning in sound or music, it  
is only present in the mind of the listener.

there was a big discussion on some list i was on way back that pitted  
the idea of Masculine and Feminine music, that there was a  
discernible *audible* difference. my own opinion is that music, as a  
language, is ill equipped to communicate specific things. the  
semiotics and syntax of its language is different than word-based  
ones, which have more cognitive importance simply because they are  
widely used and recognizable.

unfortunately, words are borne from things which are not them, they  
are fake and viral; music is itself categorically.

On Jun 22, 2005, at 7:31 AM, john saylor wrote:

> hi
>
> your post made some questions come to my mind.
>
> On 6/22/05, Bill Ashline <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>> If you hear that group of sounds devoid of the message
>> inherent in it, they're only sounds.
>>
>
> if you read that group of words devoid of the message inherent in
> them, they're only words.
> if you view that group of colors and shapes devoid of the message
> inherent in them, they're only colors and shapes.
>
> what does this phrase mean:
> 'devoid of the message inherent in them'
> ?
>
> what is the inherent message in sounds?
> have you been reading john cage? zen texts?
>
>
>
>> Paraphrasing Lyotard:  a cave dweller inscribes a figure on the wall
>> inside a cave.  Is it art?  Is it language?  It is neither.  The
>> distinction will come later.
>>
>
> hmm ...
>
> why does it matter if it's art or language? what is the difference
> between art and language? why is that distinction important?


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--Boundary_(ID_RHUgDn0IZ8E7ie6+WQ+fHw)
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I'll jump on the "context is everything" bandwagon, myself.
 Conveying something as specific as your support or disapproval of a 
political party or idea through means that use no words (written or spoken) 
is really difficult, and I doubt that your message would get through to all 
your listeners uniformly. Music is generally better-suited to communicating 
feelings, rather than specific words and non-musical concepts. It's context 
that gives music its meaning. We are able to tell that this is true because 
of the fact that anyone or anything lacking the context of a certain musical 
piece will be at least somewhat left in the dark upon hearing it. The same 
goes for language. I don't speak German, so if someone talks to me in 
German, I only have kinesthetics to utilize in receiving his communication. 
Likewise, hearing an instrumental piece with no context for it, I have only 
the emotional cues to pick up on. I can hear that it's sad or happy, but not 
what it's sad or happy about (unless the music itself makes reference to 
another musical piece that I do have context for - I've seen John Zorn do 
this once or twice, it's pretty funny).
 That said, I have seen some instrumental pieces that I would consider to be 
*vaguely* political. Communicating a political message through music can 
certainly be done, but there pretty much needs to be some prior 
understanding of what's going on in order to really successfully receive the 
communication, I think. (Intentionally vague for lack of time to fully 
explain myself.)
 - QF8
http://scatterbrain.raygunarmy.com/
--Boundary_(ID_RHUgDn0IZ8E7ie6+WQ+fHw)--

From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 19:47:48 2005
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http://www.theonion.com/2056-06-22/opinion/3/

"Tk-tkk-tk-tkik-tik! USA! USA! USA! Tk-tik-tkkk!"

Nicolas Grenier wrote:

> How about a musical party whose arguments would be mainly sonic?
> "So, what are you going to do about those taxes sir?"
> "brrrr.......wooooooiiiinggg........dzzzzzzzi...   powf!"
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ? Yahoo! Magasinage.


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From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 18:28:43 2005
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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:28:14 -0500
From: Michael North <xxxxxxx.xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: RE: [microsound] Portable audio codecs w surround?
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Yeah, the aac-48 channel bit is quite cool....only ever got up to 16
channels use myself....if you're interested in surround sound I'd recommend
the surround sound mail list at:
mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
lots of discussion, beyond surround sound as well...
www.ambisonic.net/sursound.html
has good discussions/info on ambisonics, and links to vsti's of
surround/ambisonic plugins(mostly free)
and
forum.doom9.org
has lots of info regarding tools setups etc....
Bidule (www.plogue.com) is a good modular environment(winxp & macOSX) that
supports multichannel recording.....


//*-----Original Message-----
//*From: Mr.D [mailto:xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx]
//*Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 11:18 AM
//*To: microsound
//*Subject: Re: [microsound] Portable audio codecs w surround?
//*
//*Ah thanks for the clarification on the formats! I feel greatly
//*enlightened.
//*
//*And I had no idea about AAC's capabilities, that's very cool.
//*
//*On Jun 22, 2005, at 7:10 AM, Michael North wrote:
//*
//*>
//*> The following is from the MS site ....but I've used it, and it
//*> works....
//*>
//*> Windows Media Audio 9 Professional, is a great match for high-fidelity
//*> hardware and computer with 5.1 channel surround sound. It captures
//*> full-resolution audio (24-bit/96-kHz sampling) in stereo or 5.1
//*> channel (and
//*> even 7.1 channel) surround sound for streaming or download-and-play
//*> delivery
//*> at 128 to 768 Kbps
//*>
//*> Had it wrong on the apple ac3(shouldn't answer emails without enough
//*> sleeptime)...meant AAC | MPEG-4...from their site, the following/
//*> also have
//*> used it and it worked....
//*>
//*> When compared side-by-side, AAC proves itself worthy of replacing
//*> MP3 as the
//*> new Internet audio standard. Take a look at these AAC advantages
//*> over MP3:
//*>
//*>     * Improved compression provides higher-quality results with
//*> smaller file
//*> sizes
//*>     * Support for multichannel audio, providing up to 48 full
//*> frequency
//*> channels
//*>     * Higher resolution audio, yielding sampling rates up to 96 kHz
//*>     * Improved decoding efficiency, requiring less processing power
//*> for
//*> decode
//*>
//*> Real Audio also uses AAC and is as well capable of multi-channel
//*> sound, have
//*> used it and it worked.........................
//*>
//*>
//*>
//*>
//*> //*-----Original Message-----
//*> //*From: Mr.D [mailto:xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx]
//*> //*Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 12:31 PM
//*> //*To: microsound
//*> //*Subject: Re: [microsound] Portable audio codecs w surround?
//*> //*
//*> //*AC3 is Dolby Digital, not Apple. So naturally, it does surround.
//*> //*
//*> //*Apple's lossless implementation is m4a, MPEG layer 4, the audio
//*> //*portion of an MPEG 4 movie. To my knowledge, it's dual channel
//*> only.
//*> //*That goes for WMA and RealAudio too, AFAIK.
//*> //*
//*> //*You may want to look into flac, which has multi-channel support; I
//*> //*believe there is some work being done on the surround sound
//*> //*capabilities of flac. http://flac.sourceforge.net/
//*> //*
//*> //*matt
//*> //*
//*> //*On Jun 21, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Michael North wrote:
//*> //*
//*> //*> Franhoeffer(?) have released a surround mp3 encoder....is beta
//*> and
//*> //*> only does
//*> //*> 192k....but you can do surround in apples ac3, ms wma and real
//*> ra as
//*> //*> well.....................
//*> //*>
//*> //*> //*-----Original Message-----
//*> //*> //*From: Kassen [mailto:xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxxx.xx]
//*> //*> //*Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:54 AM
//*> //*> //*To: microsound
//*> //*> //*Subject: Re: [microsound] Portable audio codecs w surround?
//*> //*> //*
//*> //*> //*Adam Young
//*> //*> //*
//*> //*> //*> I'm new to the surround sound game.. I was wondering if
//*> there
//*> //*> are any
//*> //*> //*> MP3-like audio codecs that support surround sound in a
//*> //*> portable format
//*> //*> //*like
//*> //*> //*> MP3s that can be downloaded and played with a player, etc.
//*> //*> //*
//*> //*> //*Somebody correct me if I´m wrong, but I believe codecs like
//*> mp3
//*> //*> tend to
//*> //*> //*lose
//*> //*> //*the phase relations of the material. I think the more simple
//*> //*> strategies
//*> //*> //*for
//*> //*> //*surround depend on those which would mean encoding will spoil
//*> //*> the fun.
//*> //*> //*
//*> //*> //*Depending on your aplication you could work with multiple
//*> //*> paralel files?
//*> //*> //*
//*> //*> //*Kas.
//*> //*> //*
//*> //*> //*
//*> //*> //*
//*> //*> //
//*> //*>
//*> *---------------------------------------------------------------------
//*> //*> //*To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*> //*> //*For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*> //*> //*website: http://www.microsound.org
//*> //*>
//*> //*>
//*> //*>
//*> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
//*> //*> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*> //*> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*> //*> website: http://www.microsound.org
//*> //*>
//*> //*>
//*> //*
//*> //*
//*> //
//*> *---------------------------------------------------------------------
//*> //*To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*> //*For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*> //*website: http://www.microsound.org
//*>
//*>
//*> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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//*> website: http://www.microsound.org
//*>
//*>
//*
//*
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From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 19:20:03 2005
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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:19:44 +0200
From: Marta Klonowska <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxxx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] *** Gameboyzz Orchestra Project *** Forma Nova Festival
 2005 ***
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"If the noises emitting from your speakers sound like burps, farts and blips with electronic overtones, don't be alarmed - your stereo probably doesn't have indigestion. 
More likely, you're listening to the video-game-enhanced tunes of the 
Gameboyzz Orchestra Project"
                                                                                                - Rachel Metz, WIRED News


: :  http://gameboyzz.com  : :


: :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :

# Friday, 8 July 2005, 9.30 pm
concert
Forma Nova Festival 
http://www.formanovafestival.com/
Fredericia
Denmark

 : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :
 
: :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :

# piatek, 8 lipca 2005, godz. 21.30 
koncert
Forma Nova Festival 
http://www.formanovafestival.com/
Fredericia
Dania

: :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :


: :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :

Marta Klonowska
The Manager
call me: 0048 601406977

: :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :  : :




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How about a musical party whose arguments would be mainly sonic? 
"So, what are you going to do about those taxes sir?" 
"brrrr.......wooooooiiiinggg........dzzzzzzzi...   powf!"

                
---------------------------------
Lèche-vitrine ou lèche-écran ? Yahoo! Magasinage.
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In a message dated 22/6/05 17:20:49, xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx writes:


> Music can evoke emotion though.  I think it is a phenomenon worth
> mentioning.
> 

I think that certain harmonic and melodic structures are associated 
culturally with certain emotions in ways which are specific to individual cultures. 
Whilst I enjoy the sounds of Chinese Orchestral music, I cannot say that I can 
necessarily understand all he emotional cues in the music since I have had so 
little exposure (as an Englishman) to true chinese culture.
Within my own culture, I do agree there are musical moments that produce a 
profound physical response in my body, but I would be hesitant to call it 
'emotional'. I prefer to think of it as a sort of acoustic 'stroking', similar to 
touch, a concordance of physicalities.
rob
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>
> You can consider it to be apolitical, or you can
> consider it to be very political in the sense that it
> actively champions the current political and economic
> structures that control much of what goes on (here in
> America). To listen to most radio in America, you’ve
> already been politicized into accepting commercials, a
> limited sense of intellectual inquiry, corporate
> control over just about everything, etc.

absolutely true. i was just being political by calling it apolitical:)

>
>
> Something that greatly concerns me as an electronic
> musician is that my thoughts may be progressive in
> some sense, but my actions actively support the status
> quo through purchasing equipment, supplies and
> services.

oh no... i see where you are going here...


> When I turn on the radio in my car, no
> matter what radio station I tune into, I am still
> powering the radio from gas from Texaco or whatever.
> When I am cutting up sounds in Amadeus II or Pro
> Tools, I am not just challenging people’s conception
> of sound (or whatever), but I am supporting Apple
> computers and the economic chain of overseas labor
> which is invisible to me, the steady destruction of
> the environment.

the alternative is not make art and live on a desert island where nobody
is ever going to hear from you and you'll zero chance of changing the
world.

subverting consumer goods and using them against themselves has always
been the spirit of electronic music...

look at the turntable... transformed from a product for passive
consumption into an instrument for creative production...

computers are no different.  you can use them for autodial telemarketing
or you can boot boot up MAX/MSP...

if you want to start a 'fair trade' computer company up that adhere to
all the ethics and morality by which you stand, by all means, do it...
i''ll buy one. but it just means you'll be doing that for the next
thirty years and not making art.

time is against us. act now. this is limited time opportunity. the
revolutionaries are standing by.



> in particular; the parts used in any computer are
> probably made with cheap labor and probably not made
> with environmental protection in mind.
>
> Music does not just have a surface political meaning,
> but the very existence and consumption of music
> implies the political and economic (is there really a
> difference?) structures the music lives in. This is
> what I got out of Attail’s book, which otherwise I
> found to be not very rigorous and not too useful.
>
> I don’t think the question is how can wordless music
> have a political meaning, but how can music made that
> is so entrenched in the current economic worldview
> effectively question that worldview.

i don't see capitalism in itself as particularly a problem. what it's
become is the problem. i could never engineer the tools i use to make
art, to write, to make films, music, communicate, myself. i appreciate
the ingenuity of others... i guess what i'm saying is that i'm more in
favour of what alvin toffler calls the 'prosumer' in his 'the third
wave' book (which i highly recommend). i don't distinguish between
consumption and production. the best kind of person on earth gives back
as much as he takes. and that giving back does not necessarily entail
merely money. it can be art. it can be time. it can be this e-mail.

g.

>
>
> -Josh Ronsen
> in Austin, Texas
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Sports
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
> http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
>
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From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 17:27:25 2005
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aren't letters just shapes and lines, nothing more? abstract graphics on a
empty background?

one person's written language is another person's hieroglyphics...

aren't spoken words just sounds too? the sound of one word in english, say
'chow' (which infers food) means goodbye in italian and something entirely
different in chinese... same sound. different meaning...

the meaning we ascribe to them is just as learned as the meaning we ascribe
to musical sounds.

i don't see the difference. music is text. language is contextual.

maybe i still don't get you...

g.


>  But sound
> itself is just sound--nothing more.


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From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 16:20:37 2005
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Music can evoke emotion though.  I think it is a phenomenon worth 
mentioning.

Ever had the hairs on your arm stand on end when listening to music 
void of lyrics/history of said piece?

Literal communication is not music,  music  was never intended to be so 
by itself.

Music can be reworked into a language very easily.  Then literal 
communication could take place, but then it would cease to be music, 
and become literal language.

Music can be made into a programming language, then, blah blah blah you 
get the idea...



aLEKs


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Ah thanks for the clarification on the formats! I feel greatly  
enlightened.

And I had no idea about AAC's capabilities, that's very cool.

On Jun 22, 2005, at 7:10 AM, Michael North wrote:

>
> The following is from the MS site ....but I've used it, and it  
> works....
>
> Windows Media Audio 9 Professional, is a great match for high-fidelity
> hardware and computer with 5.1 channel surround sound. It captures
> full-resolution audio (24-bit/96-kHz sampling) in stereo or 5.1  
> channel (and
> even 7.1 channel) surround sound for streaming or download-and-play  
> delivery
> at 128 to 768 Kbps
>
> Had it wrong on the apple ac3(shouldn't answer emails without enough
> sleeptime)...meant AAC | MPEG-4...from their site, the following/ 
> also have
> used it and it worked....
>
> When compared side-by-side, AAC proves itself worthy of replacing  
> MP3 as the
> new Internet audio standard. Take a look at these AAC advantages  
> over MP3:
>
>     * Improved compression provides higher-quality results with  
> smaller file
> sizes
>     * Support for multichannel audio, providing up to 48 full  
> frequency
> channels
>     * Higher resolution audio, yielding sampling rates up to 96 kHz
>     * Improved decoding efficiency, requiring less processing power  
> for
> decode
>
> Real Audio also uses AAC and is as well capable of multi-channel  
> sound, have
> used it and it worked.........................
>
>
>
>
> //*-----Original Message-----
> //*From: Mr.D [mailto:xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx]
> //*Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 12:31 PM
> //*To: microsound
> //*Subject: Re: [microsound] Portable audio codecs w surround?
> //*
> //*AC3 is Dolby Digital, not Apple. So naturally, it does surround.
> //*
> //*Apple's lossless implementation is m4a, MPEG layer 4, the audio
> //*portion of an MPEG 4 movie. To my knowledge, it's dual channel  
> only.
> //*That goes for WMA and RealAudio too, AFAIK.
> //*
> //*You may want to look into flac, which has multi-channel support; I
> //*believe there is some work being done on the surround sound
> //*capabilities of flac. http://flac.sourceforge.net/
> //*
> //*matt
> //*
> //*On Jun 21, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Michael North wrote:
> //*
> //*> Franhoeffer(?) have released a surround mp3 encoder....is beta  
> and
> //*> only does
> //*> 192k....but you can do surround in apples ac3, ms wma and real  
> ra as
> //*> well.....................
> //*>
> //*> //*-----Original Message-----
> //*> //*From: Kassen [mailto:xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxxx.xx]
> //*> //*Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:54 AM
> //*> //*To: microsound
> //*> //*Subject: Re: [microsound] Portable audio codecs w surround?
> //*> //*
> //*> //*Adam Young
> //*> //*
> //*> //*> I'm new to the surround sound game.. I was wondering if  
> there
> //*> are any
> //*> //*> MP3-like audio codecs that support surround sound in a
> //*> portable format
> //*> //*like
> //*> //*> MP3s that can be downloaded and played with a player, etc.
> //*> //*
> //*> //*Somebody correct me if I´m wrong, but I believe codecs like  
> mp3
> //*> tend to
> //*> //*lose
> //*> //*the phase relations of the material. I think the more simple
> //*> strategies
> //*> //*for
> //*> //*surround depend on those which would mean encoding will spoil
> //*> the fun.
> //*> //*
> //*> //*Depending on your aplication you could work with multiple
> //*> paralel files?
> //*> //*
> //*> //*Kas.
> //*> //*
> //*> //*
> //*> //*
> //*> //
> //*>  
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From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 16:03:46 2005
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Subject: Re: [microsound] Re: being 'political' in non-verbal music
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Hi,

Josh Ronsen wrote:
"To listen to most radio in America, you’ve
already been politicized into accepting commercials, a
limited sense of intellectual inquiry, corporate
control over just about everything, etc."

I think this is a very important point.

Josh:
"Something that greatly concerns me as an electronic
musician is that my thoughts may be progressive in
some sense, but my actions actively support the status
quo through purchasing equipment, supplies and
services."

Yes, but that is in the nature of the system itself. Furthermore, I 
don't think the whole idea of putting the blame for the conditions of 
PRODUCTION on the consumer/end user is entirely justified. There does 
seem to be a progressive idea in the last few years that you can "get 
off the grid" and refrain from consuming negative corporate products. 
While this is a decent idea, in a limited sense, I daresay it does 
nothing to actualy improve the lives of, for instance, factory workers 
in Mexico. It's also not realistic to achieve for those of us who 
require computers and electronic instruments to do our work - though 
personally I do try to buy used equipment in some cases. I don't think 
you have to feel "guilty" about it buying a computer (unless that 
feeling helps you to be politically active in some other area). While 
the Marxist focus on conditions of production and ownership of the means 
of production might have been too narrow and dogmatic, it is a mistake 
to go to the opposite pole and only worry about the conditions of 
consumption. Consumption is itself PRODUCED by an elaborate and 
effective system.

What is much more important is political involvement in your nation, 
working for governments that don't push global economic strategies that 
make these exploitive factories profitable and inevitable.

However, realize that at a very important level, it is going to be up to 
the workers at the individual factories, or in the exploited nations, to 
fight their own political struggles and liberate themselves. I think it 
is rather more important to focus on those places in our lives, at work, 
school, the local neighborhood, and the voting booth, where we can make 
a difference. Our local success can allow us to then link up to broader 
global struggles, which we can support but which must be carried out by 
the individuals involved who have a stake in what happens. In 
particular, if the United States could ever assume a progressive role in 
world politics (I know this is hard to imagine!), it would likely assist 
ALL of the global struggles and lessen the ability of corporations to 
exploit around the world.

Josh:
"Music does not just have a surface political meaning,
but the very existence and consumption of music
implies the political and economic (is there really a
difference?) structures the music lives in. This is
what I got out of Attail’s book, which otherwise I
found to be not very rigorous and not too useful."

I agreed, the book was exciting when I first read it, but after some 
contemplation and analysis, the ideas don't really hold up and there's a 
lot of "grand meta-narrative" implying that history, in this case 
musical history, is inevitably marching on towards some glorious 
revolutionary destiny (telos) - the liberation of noise. I don't think 
we need yet another overblown grand narrative. Furthermore, Attali is 
very biased towards Western music, and if I recall correctly, make 
little mention of or analysis of non-Western music. I think that a more 
global and less ethnocentric vision of music would see that noise has 
always been an important part of music, though the particular quality of 
noise, and the balance between noise and pattern within music, varies 
with individual cultures.

I do think the production of music is political, and it's important to 
look at the conditions of PRODUCTION of music, especially in our own 
lives. The mainstream music industry exploits a great many people in the 
making and selling of a record, and one of the nice things about 
independent music is that normally the conditions of production are 
simpler and non-exploitive, tending towards individual efforts and small 
collaborations, often with a gift economy operating at some points 
rather than any strictly capitalist one.

Want to create a piece that is political without using words or musical 
signifiers that function in linguistic ways (quotations)? It's not 
difficult, once you put aside the tendency to "preach" and think that 
music must be some tool to convert people to your own point of view 
(which is a problem I have with a lot of progressive actions generally). 
Here are some of the political possibilities I see readily available:
1. Create music in an open collaboration with other artists, making sure 
to maintain a non-exploitive and progressive relationship with all 
parties involved. Or write music for multimedia/dance/etc where as an 
artist you collaborate with others in the artistic process in an open way.
2. Create music which you give away for free.
3. Create music specifically for an event or environment that is 
politically progressive and build solidarity while making life more 
beautiful and joyful for everyone present.
4. Study those composers and performers who feel are progress and create 
music that connects to and extends their tradition.
5. Take an experimental attitude in your music, and always seek to 
evolve and to move forward in your own approach, and structure your 
personal musical philosophy in a way which is reflective of your 
political outlook.
6. Use as much free, open source, independent, and used hardware and/or 
software as is practical in your music making.
7. Write versions of Russian and Chinese folks songs in the "socialist 
realist" style. (sorry just kidding!!!)

And I would say that none of these examples are "external" to the music, 
one could just as well say that the actual music is external to the 
process of production which gives rise to it! In the end, I strongly 
believe that the fact that you use your time to create music, much of 
which is probably given away freely, is itself political - since you 
could be using this time to build bombs, sell stocks and real estate, or 
even just passively consume corporate media.

~David

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From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 15:53:31 2005
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Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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Who's distinction?  Yours, mine, we/ours?  We have no point of 
reference.  Only the creator of the image has it.  We can only percieve 
to know what distinction/purpose it really had.  But in the end that 
only further supports your rationale on the whole subject.


aLEKs

>  The politics comes later.
> Paraphrasing Lyotard:  a cave dweller inscribes a figure on the wall
> inside a cave.  Is it art?  Is it language?  It is neither.  The
> distinction will come later.
>
>


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From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 14:40:21 2005
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Subject: [microsound] Re: being 'political' in non-verbal music
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graham miller wrote:

>and think about this: the popular music on the radio
is 
>some of the most apolitical, apathetic music in the
entire 
>universe. and it's chock-full of 'lyrics.'

You can consider it to be apolitical, or you can
consider it to be very political in the sense that it
actively champions the current political and economic
structures that control much of what goes on (here in
America). To listen to most radio in America, you’ve
already been politicized into accepting commercials, a
limited sense of intellectual inquiry, corporate
control over just about everything, etc.

Something that greatly concerns me as an electronic
musician is that my thoughts may be progressive in
some sense, but my actions actively support the status
quo through purchasing equipment, supplies and
services. When I turn on the radio in my car, no
matter what radio station I tune into, I am still
powering the radio from gas from Texaco or whatever.
When I am cutting up sounds in Amadeus II or Pro
Tools, I am not just challenging people’s conception
of sound (or whatever), but I am supporting Apple
computers and the economic chain of overseas labor
which is invisible to me, the steady destruction of
the environment. This is not an attack against Apple
in particular; the parts used in any computer are
probably made with cheap labor and probably not made
with environmental protection in mind.

Music does not just have a surface political meaning,
but the very existence and consumption of music
implies the political and economic (is there really a
difference?) structures the music lives in. This is
what I got out of Attail’s book, which otherwise I
found to be not very rigorous and not too useful.

I don’t think the question is how can wordless music
have a political meaning, but how can music made that
is so entrenched in the current economic worldview
effectively question that worldview.

-Josh Ronsen
in Austin, Texas




                
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
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Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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hi

your post made some questions come to my mind.

On 6/22/05, Bill Ashline <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> If you hear that group of sounds devoid of the message
> inherent in it, they're only sounds.

if you read that group of words devoid of the message inherent in
them, they're only words.
if you view that group of colors and shapes devoid of the message
inherent in them, they're only colors and shapes.

what does this phrase mean: 
'devoid of the message inherent in them'
?

what is the inherent message in sounds?
have you been reading john cage? zen texts?


> Paraphrasing Lyotard:  a cave dweller inscribes a figure on the wall
> inside a cave.  Is it art?  Is it language?  It is neither.  The
> distinction will come later.

hmm ...

why does it matter if it's art or language? what is the difference
between art and language? why is that distinction important?


-- 
\js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]

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From: Michael North <xxxxxxx.xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: RE: [microsound] Portable audio codecs w surround?
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The following is from the MS site ....but I've used it, and it works....

Windows Media Audio 9 Professional, is a great match for high-fidelity
hardware and computer with 5.1 channel surround sound. It captures
full-resolution audio (24-bit/96-kHz sampling) in stereo or 5.1 channel (and
even 7.1 channel) surround sound for streaming or download-and-play delivery
at 128 to 768 Kbps

Had it wrong on the apple ac3(shouldn't answer emails without enough
sleeptime)...meant AAC | MPEG-4...from their site, the following/also have
used it and it worked....

When compared side-by-side, AAC proves itself worthy of replacing MP3 as the
new Internet audio standard. Take a look at these AAC advantages over MP3:

    * Improved compression provides higher-quality results with smaller file
sizes
    * Support for multichannel audio, providing up to 48 full frequency
channels
    * Higher resolution audio, yielding sampling rates up to 96 kHz
    * Improved decoding efficiency, requiring less processing power for
decode

Real Audio also uses AAC and is as well capable of multi-channel sound, have
used it and it worked.........................




//*-----Original Message-----
//*From: Mr.D [mailto:xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx]
//*Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 12:31 PM
//*To: microsound
//*Subject: Re: [microsound] Portable audio codecs w surround?
//*
//*AC3 is Dolby Digital, not Apple. So naturally, it does surround.
//*
//*Apple's lossless implementation is m4a, MPEG layer 4, the audio
//*portion of an MPEG 4 movie. To my knowledge, it's dual channel only.
//*That goes for WMA and RealAudio too, AFAIK.
//*
//*You may want to look into flac, which has multi-channel support; I
//*believe there is some work being done on the surround sound
//*capabilities of flac. http://flac.sourceforge.net/
//*
//*matt
//*
//*On Jun 21, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Michael North wrote:
//*
//*> Franhoeffer(?) have released a surround mp3 encoder....is beta and
//*> only does
//*> 192k....but you can do surround in apples ac3, ms wma and real ra as
//*> well.....................
//*>
//*> //*-----Original Message-----
//*> //*From: Kassen [mailto:xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxxx.xx]
//*> //*Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:54 AM
//*> //*To: microsound
//*> //*Subject: Re: [microsound] Portable audio codecs w surround?
//*> //*
//*> //*Adam Young
//*> //*
//*> //*> I'm new to the surround sound game.. I was wondering if there
//*> are any
//*> //*> MP3-like audio codecs that support surround sound in a
//*> portable format
//*> //*like
//*> //*> MP3s that can be downloaded and played with a player, etc.
//*> //*
//*> //*Somebody correct me if I´m wrong, but I believe codecs like mp3
//*> tend to
//*> //*lose
//*> //*the phase relations of the material. I think the more simple
//*> strategies
//*> //*for
//*> //*surround depend on those which would mean encoding will spoil
//*> the fun.
//*> //*
//*> //*Depending on your aplication you could work with multiple
//*> paralel files?
//*> //*
//*> //*Kas.
//*> //*
//*> //*
//*> //*
//*> //
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From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 12:45:33 2005
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From: Mika Martini <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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Bill Ashline wrote: "The best way to give a political color to basically apolitical sonics is to use political titles and packaging."
 
Por ejemplo/example graphic: http://www.mikamartini.scd.cl/CivicEducation.htm
 
mika.

Bill Ashline <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> escribió:
On 6/21/05, Damian Stewart wrote:
> How do you get across political messages in music which has no lyrics
> and which has no voice samples?
> 

You can't. People can read anything they want into music, because
music doesn't have any apriori political signifiers. The best way to
give a political color to basically apolitical sonics is to use
political titles and packaging. Some of the most overtly political
music outside of the work of Cardew is the free jazz of the sixties,
and that was all part of a process of social transformation and the
political dimensions of the music came out in the culture that
surrounded it--with tributes to Malcolm X, for example, and some of
the clothes and styling of the musicians, like the Art Ensemble's
tribal paint, etc. Without the cultural politics, the music isn't
inherently political at all unless the forms are radical, which by now
is pretty unlikely.


-- 
What to the American slave is your 4th of July? I answer: a day that
reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross
injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your
celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your
national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are
empty and heartless; your denunciations of tyrants, brass fronted
impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your
prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your
religious parade and solemnity, are, to him, mere bombast, fraud,
deception, impiety, and hypocrisy--a thin veil to cover up crimes
which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on 
the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the
people of the United States, at this very hour.--Frederick Douglass

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+ + + + + + + + + + + + + 
[M!M] [CHILE]
[www.mikamartini.scd.cl]



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From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 11:53:46 2005
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Begging to differ in an indifferent world.

All sounds occur in a context. More specifically, all
sounds occur in the primordial context of “hearing”.
So sounds are, like linguistic signs, always tending
toward contextualization(s) and therefore tending
toward meaning(s). None of this occurs in isolation. I
recall from live Derrida "set" hearing him say (in
English, and I quote from memory) “This idea that the
sign is detachable from the signifier, this is
insignificance itself”. In the context of that lecture
on the undecidability of the phonic element of
language over and above the graphic element, the irony
of what this sounded like to me has continued to
reverberate across the years. I think it is a big
mistake to decide that sound has no meaning. I think
it is more true to say there is always the potential
to become meaningful. (It is not important to decide
first that sound is meaningless in order to then
re-interpret it as signal, etc.) The only reason one
should give up is if one’s physical or mental pain
suffered in this existence becomes too much to bear
(Deleuze?). There is great despair if one cannot get
one’s message across. And there is a despair that
there is no message to get across. But is this unique
to sound? I think not. 

“A true relationship of trust is when you believe in
the other party like it is a human being, even if it
may be a machine. This kind of trust also improves the
endurance of the machine. Believing in something
strongly enough will eventually envelop the whole
world into the situation.” 
–Tetuzi Akiyama, Route 13 to the Gates of Hell

So we ought to be careful about not only what we
believe but about what we say we believe. There is a
form of experience, a shape to the truth, that resists
being tames by opinion, public or otherwise. The work
needs to attain this notation within itself. This is
what William Blake said: “Everything possible to be
believed is an image of truth.” We will never or only
rarely (and accidentally?) encounter the outside of
capitalism while sitting in front of our computers.
But maybe capitalism is empty enough to be filled with
an intention more profound than the superficiality of
products, no matter what their relative merits in the
established hierarchies of value. To be singular is to
light a fire under context. Who will pass the matches,
please?

One's politics is not often readable in what one talks
about so much as in what one refuses to talk about.

-Jeff Gburek


--- Bill Ashline <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> On 6/22/05, xxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xx.xx
> <xxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
> 
> > Not sure about that Bill. I've just heard a simple
> piece called Cacerolada
> > at the Sonic Arts Network Conference in
> Scarborough, UK that made a very
> > powerful political statement on several levels
> without lyrics or voice
> > samples. 
> 
> Interesting, mopani, and thanks for that tip.  But
> it doesn't change
> my point.  If you hear that group of sounds devoid
> of the message
> inherent in it, they're only sounds.  The politics
> comes later. 
> Paraphrasing Lyotard:  a cave dweller inscribes a
> figure on the wall
> inside a cave.  Is it art?  Is it language?  It is
> neither.  The
> distinction will come later.
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/22/05, Aaron Ximm <xxxxx@xxxx.xxx> wrote:
> 
> > Of course, in cases like this it's the context
> that makes the recording
> > meaningful -- not the sounds themselves... my
> first reaction is that the
> > contextualizing information here serves the same
> roll as the lyrics in a
> > protest song.
> 
> Exactly, Aaron.
> 
> 
> -- 
> What to the American slave is your 4th of July? I
> answer: a day that
> reveals to him, more than all other days in the
> year, the gross
> injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant
> victim. To him, your
> celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an
> unholy license; your
> national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of
> rejoicing are
> empty and heartless; your denunciations of tyrants,
> brass fronted
> impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality,
> hollow mockery; your
> prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings,
> with all your
> religious parade and solemnity, are, to him, mere
> bombast, fraud,
> deception, impiety, and hypocrisy--a thin veil to
> cover up crimes
> which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is
> not a nation on    
>   the earth guilty of practices more shocking and
> bloody than are the
> people of the United States, at this very
> hour.--Frederick Douglass
> 
>
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> 



                
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From ???@??? Wed Jun 22 08:43:08 2005
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From: Bill Ashline <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
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On 6/22/05, xxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xx.xx <xxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> Not sure about that Bill. I've just heard a simple piece called Cacerolada
> at the Sonic Arts Network Conference in Scarborough, UK that made a very
> powerful political statement on several levels without lyrics or voice
> samples. 

Interesting, mopani, and thanks for that tip.  But it doesn't change
my point.  If you hear that group of sounds devoid of the message
inherent in it, they're only sounds.  The politics comes later. 
Paraphrasing Lyotard:  a cave dweller inscribes a figure on the wall
inside a cave.  Is it art?  Is it language?  It is neither.  The
distinction will come later.



On 6/22/05, Aaron Ximm <xxxxx@xxxx.xxx> wrote:

> Of course, in cases like this it's the context that makes the recording
> meaningful -- not the sounds themselves... my first reaction is that the
> contextualizing information here serves the same roll as the lyrics in a
> protest song.

Exactly, Aaron.


-- 
What to the American slave is your 4th of July? I answer: a day that
reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross
injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your
celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your
national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are
empty and heartless; your denunciations of tyrants, brass fronted
impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your
prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your
religious parade and solemnity, are, to him, mere bombast, fraud,
deception, impiety, and hypocrisy--a thin veil to cover up crimes
which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on    
  the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the
people of the United States, at this very hour.--Frederick Douglass

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From: Bill Ashline <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] being 'political' in non-verbal music
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