Re: [microsound] children of men/futuristic music

From carl kruger
Sent Sun, Dec 31st 2006, 19:11

>having just (well a year ago) completed a master's
>thesis on exactly this kind of thing (thesis in a
?>nutshell: why don't sci-fi films ever try to imagine
>what the music of the future might sound like?) i 
>have to say that this incidentally tiny sequence is
>really one the best attempts at imagining or 
>designed a style of music that does not yet  
>exist. i can't think of any film that has really
>tried to do this and succeeded the way 'children of
>men' does.

while i've yet to watch 'children of men', i'd
nominate the bar "music" from a scene in one of the
most celebrated sci-fi turkeys ever released as very
futuristic, or at least strikingly alien / need i name
it? 

imdb.com/title/tt0185183/  

the sound was not unlike a couple of radios giving off
sharp, yet not loud, jolts of feedback as you scanned
their dials ... layered a top a vaporous blanket of
bassy static  (this may have been the ONLY thing this
movie had 'gotten right') 







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From ???@??? Sun Dec 31 18:18:06 2006
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From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] children of men/futuristic music
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really? which track? i have that album...

On 31-Dec-06, at 8:55 AM, Steven McLeod wrote:

> When Cain plays the "zen" music with Owen after their strawbery  
> spliff it is in part an Aphex Twin track fron Druqs and either  
> remixed or mixed with something else
>
> steve
> -

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From ???@??? Sun Dec 31 13:55:33 2006
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From: Steven McLeod <xxxxxx.xxxxxx@xxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] children of men/futuristic music
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When Cain plays the "zen" music with Owen after their strawbery spliff it is 
in part an Aphex Twin track fron Druqs and either remixed or mixed with 
something else

steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Graham Miller" <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>; "tobias c. van Veen" 
<xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; "Robert Bowman" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 5:29 AM
Subject: [microsound] children of men/futuristic music


just saw the absolutely mind-blowingly good sci-fi 'children of men,'
one of the most impressive pieces of dystopian sci-fi i've seen in
ages. 'code 46' meets 'saving private ryan' meets '28 days later'. i
can't say enough good things about this film. go see it. thank god
for proper science fiction. it comes so infrequently. but when it
comes it gets me so excited about the possibilities inherent to this
genre. this guy should direct neuromancer and get aphex twin (or
sutekh) to do the score:)

anyway, without giving anything away, i was particularly impressed in
one scene in which the michael caine character plays some 'soothing'
diagetic music from the near-future (roughly twenty years from now)
for the main protagonist, clive owen, over his stereo, after a
particularly traumatizing string of events.

having just (well a year ago) completed a master's thesis on exactly
this kind of thing (thesis in a nutchell: why don't sci-fi films ever
try to imagine what the music of the future might sound like?) i have
to say that this incidentally tiny sequence is really one the best
attempts at imagining or designed a style of music that does not yet
exist.  i can't think of any film that has really tried to do this
and succeeded the way 'children of men' does.

i've only seen it once and intend to check it out again, so this
description only comes from my muddy memory but basically it is a
kind of über-heavy musique concrete of screaming and machine gun fire
not all that far removed from say, public enemy, in terms of that
kind of intensity and sonic politic. it really blew my mind.

has anyone seen this movie and remember that scene? any thoughts?

g.

p.s. also check out the sounds of michael caine's (jasper) alarm
system in the movie. cool stuff too in terms of totally original
sound design.
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From ???@??? Sun Dec 31 05:59:36 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] children of men/futuristic music
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  Hello Graham Miller,

   I found this

  http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~snc/jtlife.htm

   on John Tavener , and a list of credits for Richard Beggs

   http://www.hollywood.com/celebs/detail/id/3078290




On Dec 30, 2006, at 9:29 PM, Graham Miller wrote:

> just saw the absolutely mind-blowingly good sci-fi 'children of men,' 
> one of the most impressive pieces of dystopian sci-fi i've seen in 
> ages. 'code 46' meets 'saving private ryan' meets '28 days later'. i 
> can't say enough good things about this film. go see it. thank god for 
> proper science fiction. it comes so infrequently. but when it comes it 
> gets me so excited about the possibilities inherent to this genre. 
> this guy should direct neuromancer and get aphex twin (or sutekh) to 
> do the score:)
>
> anyway, without giving anything away, i was particularly impressed in 
> one scene in which the michael caine character plays some 'soothing' 
> diagetic music from the near-future (roughly twenty years from now) 
> for the main protagonist, clive owen, over his stereo, after a 
> particularly traumatizing string of events.
>
> having just (well a year ago) completed a master's thesis on exactly 
> this kind of thing (thesis in a nutchell: why don't sci-fi films ever 
> try to imagine what the music of the future might sound like?) i have 
> to say that this incidentally tiny sequence is really one the best 
> attempts at imagining or designed a style of music that does not yet 
> exist.  i can't think of any film that has really tried to do this and 
> succeeded the way 'children of men' does.
>
> i've only seen it once and intend to check it out again, so this 
> description only comes from my muddy memory but basically it is a kind 
> of über-heavy musique concrete of screaming and machine gun fire not 
> all that far removed from say, public enemy, in terms of that kind of 
> intensity and sonic politic. it really blew my mind.
>
> has anyone seen this movie and remember that scene? any thoughts?
>
> g.
>
> p.s. also check out the sounds of michael caine's (jasper) alarm 
> system in the movie. cool stuff too in terms of totally original sound 
> design.


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From ???@??? Sun Dec 31 05:30:05 2006
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From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] children of men/futuristic music
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 "tobias c. van Veen" <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>,
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just saw the absolutely mind-blowingly good sci-fi 'children of men,'  
one of the most impressive pieces of dystopian sci-fi i've seen in  
ages. 'code 46' meets 'saving private ryan' meets '28 days later'. i  
can't say enough good things about this film. go see it. thank god  
for proper science fiction. it comes so infrequently. but when it  
comes it gets me so excited about the possibilities inherent to this  
genre. this guy should direct neuromancer and get aphex twin (or  
sutekh) to do the score:)

anyway, without giving anything away, i was particularly impressed in  
one scene in which the michael caine character plays some 'soothing'  
diagetic music from the near-future (roughly twenty years from now)  
for the main protagonist, clive owen, over his stereo, after a  
particularly traumatizing string of events.

having just (well a year ago) completed a master's thesis on exactly  
this kind of thing (thesis in a nutchell: why don't sci-fi films ever  
try to imagine what the music of the future might sound like?) i have  
to say that this incidentally tiny sequence is really one the best  
attempts at imagining or designed a style of music that does not yet  
exist.  i can't think of any film that has really tried to do this  
and succeeded the way 'children of men' does.

i've only seen it once and intend to check it out again, so this  
description only comes from my muddy memory but basically it is a  
kind of über-heavy musique concrete of screaming and machine gun fire  
not all that far removed from say, public enemy, in terms of that  
kind of intensity and sonic politic. it really blew my mind.

has anyone seen this movie and remember that scene? any thoughts?

g.

p.s. also check out the sounds of michael caine's (jasper) alarm  
system in the movie. cool stuff too in terms of totally original  
sound design.
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From ???@??? Sat Dec 30 20:01:09 2006
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From: Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] fun online music generator
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More fun:  http://www.miniorgan.com/

Vintage electronic musical toys - cool, possibly useful sounds.
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From ???@??? Sat Dec 30 06:26:41 2006
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Subject: [microsound] fun online music generator
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http://www.ampledesign.co.uk/va/

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From ???@??? Fri Dec 29 23:25:49 2006
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Hi,

   Architect... honestly. It conjures up an image of someone wearing a 
cardboard shirt who actually knows how to use a mechanical pencil( I 
always seem to get the graphite too far out and can't get it back in 
the barrel with destroying something).  Academic? That's probably 
someone who bluffed their way through college and now sits around 
wearing odd coloured turtlenecks and giggles over kiwi fruit, 
occasionally the eyes glaze over and wistful thoughts about why their 
isn't any funding for the arts.

   Ok. I have it all figured out. The answer lies more in the realm of 
urban planning than being an architect ( Do you play' So long, Frank 
Lloyd Wright' on an 8 track cartridge loop in the backgound?" Get a 
cinder in your eye...." Yeah , dude then people start using you for an 
ashtray.).

  The ground floor of our new quiet building houses one or all three of 
the following: An anechoic chamber , a recording studio and archival 
storage facility(more about that later) and a 
homeforunwedmothers/maternity ward/daycare center.I say go for all 
three, with the anechoic chamber at the front entrance and the 
maternity ward spread out with many access portals , that way people 
with sleeping infants could dash about telling, or rather reminding 
people to be quiet.

  There might be a slight difficulty in convincing the clients (polite 
term) to jettison what ever business ideas they had in mind and change 
their focus to archival storage; yet once they get the idea of owning 
everything and everyone inside their heads it will make  more sense. 
You see, people come to store their tapes for a reasonable fee. The 
building is ultra secure. There is an underground rail system , the 
tunnel also houses electrical lines.

   Outside the building is a long term plan of permanent disarray. 
Homeless people are allowed to camp in tents. Trees are encouraged to 
grow long and wild , thereby toppling and damaging the conventional 
shallow underground powerlines. The building could be designed as a 
sort of windtrap , actually encouraging destruction during a storm. The 
idea is also to block off roads , get rid of the audible signs of other 
people's progress: jackhammers , cranes, backhoes etc. There could be 
street fairs on the weekend as long as nobody played any music. They 
could bring tapes for storage instead.


   It's a great place to socialize.

   What I want to know: What are you going to think about once it's 
quiet?


                                                               -b


  p.s. I thought it was noise-excema; sounded horrible.



Dec 29, 2006, at 7:44 AM, Derek Mason wrote:

> My day job is an architect and if you can create a better solution to 
> the white noise for an office environment, you will have a great deal 
> of people interested.
>
> http://www.speechprivacysystems.com/resources.html
>
> Derek
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "giovanni conti" <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>> To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> Subject: [microsound] noise-enzima
>> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:53:32 +0000
>>
>>
>> hi,
>> for my thesis project I'm developing a software performing realtime
>> nonlinear composition
>> based on environmental_sound_analysis,
>> to reduce the "psycological" (...) impact of noise on people living
>> in acoustically-polluted zones.
>> Keywords:
>> + profound ecology
>> + functional use of musical art
>> + acoustic landscape modelling
>> + urban noise impact abatement
>> + environmental sensor systems - immersive acoustic environments
>>
>> Can anyone point me in the direction of already existing similar
>> projects-softwares-ideas?
>> Any help is greatly appreciated,
>> thanks!
>> have bright days,
>> gio
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________


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From: Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] noise-enzima
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When I first saw the subject line I read it as 'noise-enema'. Boggled 
my mind for a few moments...

R.
-- 



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(Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
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From ???@??? Fri Dec 29 19:47:23 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] noise-enzima
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Hi Giovanni~

You may want to talk with Charles Henry (xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx) about it.  He's
doing some sort of adaptive filtering stuff with Pd over at the University
of Kansas.  Stuff's way over my head!

~Kyle

On 12/29/06, giovanni conti <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> hi,
> for my thesis project I'm developing a software performing realtime
> nonlinear composition
> based on environmental_sound_analysis,
> to reduce the "psycological" (...) impact of noise on people living in
> acoustically-polluted zones.
> Keywords:
> + profound ecology
> + functional use of musical art
> + acoustic landscape modelling
> + urban noise impact abatement
> + environmental sensor systems - immersive acoustic environments
>
> Can anyone point me in the direction of already existing similar
> projects-softwares-ideas?
> Any help is greatly appreciated,
> thanks!
> have bright days,
> gio
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Cimentati con nuove domande su Duel Live…
> http://specials.it.msn.com/DuelLive.aspx
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>


-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

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(())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
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From ???@??? Fri Dec 29 19:42:41 2006
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From: nick knouf <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] noise-enzima
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There's a good project from a friend of mine at the MIT Media Lab  
named Noah Vawter:

Ambient Addition
http://web.media.mit.edu/~nvawter/thesis/index.html

I think this is close to what you're describing.  He used a DSP chip  
to create a mobile platform for analysis and resynthesis of  
environmental sounds.

nick


On Dec 29, 2006, at 6:53 AM, giovanni conti wrote:

> hi,
> for my thesis project I'm developing a software performing realtime  
> nonlinear composition
> based on environmental_sound_analysis,
> to reduce the "psycological" (...) impact of noise on people living  
> in acoustically-polluted zones.
> Keywords:
> + profound ecology
> + functional use of musical art
> + acoustic landscape modelling
> + urban noise impact abatement
> + environmental sensor systems - immersive acoustic environments
>
> Can anyone point me in the direction of already existing similar  
> projects-softwares-ideas?
> Any help is greatly appreciated,
> thanks!
> have bright days,
> gio
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Cimentati con nuove domande su Duel Live… http:// 
> specials.it.msn.com/DuelLive.aspx
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ???@??? Fri Dec 29 15:59:03 2006
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From: aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple?....What about you!
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Oh my how argumentative of you to offer up a differing opinion.  If i 
had my way you would be tied to a stake and flogged until you conformed 
to my ideologies. :)

Nice post.  Watch your back tho...:)

aLEKs


On Dec 28, 2006, at 6:49 PM, Paul Pavlovich wrote:

> Every single person who lives in the developed west has in some way, 
> shape, or form, (inadvertently) supported warfare, genocide, political 
> destabilization, human rights abuses, gentrification, and 
> environmental destruction.
>
> If you have a bank account...a mortgage...a car payment...credit 
> cards...pay taxes...buy produce in you local food store...buy 
> beer...buy smokes...go to sporting events...rent an apartment...own a 
> computer...buy CD’s...purchase books...use paper... All of us pay into 
> the (sometime) unethical and (sometimes) criminal activities of the 
> multi-national corporation and international banking systems. Don’t 
> worry about IBM and Greenpeace. Try to remove yourself from the 
> hypocrisy. Its much harder than you think.
>
> If you feel your not a part of  a destructive system let me know how 
> you do it...
> Id like to join you on your planet.
>
> assassination not hibernation.
> P
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here.  Get all the 
> scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/
>
>
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From: Derek Mason <xxxxx.xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] noise-enzima
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My day job is an architect and if you can create a better solution to the white noise for an office environment, you will have a great deal of people interested.

http://www.speechprivacysystems.com/resources.html

Derek

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "giovanni conti" <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> Subject: [microsound] noise-enzima
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:53:32 +0000
> 
> 
> hi,
> for my thesis project I'm developing a software performing realtime 
> nonlinear composition
> based on environmental_sound_analysis,
> to reduce the "psycological" (...) impact of noise on people living 
> in acoustically-polluted zones.
> Keywords:
> + profound ecology
> + functional use of musical art
> + acoustic landscape modelling
> + urban noise impact abatement
> + environmental sensor systems - immersive acoustic environments
> 
> Can anyone point me in the direction of already existing similar 
> projects-softwares-ideas?
> Any help is greatly appreciated,
> thanks!
> have bright days,
> gio
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Cimentati con nuove domande su Duel Live… 
> http://specials.it.msn.com/DuelLive.aspx
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>


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 FILETIME=[1E9455F0:01C72B59]

hi,
for my thesis project I'm developing a software performing realtime 
nonlinear composition
based on environmental_sound_analysis,
to reduce the "psycological" (...) impact of noise on people living in 
acoustically-polluted zones.
Keywords:
+ profound ecology
+ functional use of musical art
+ acoustic landscape modelling
+ urban noise impact abatement
+ environmental sensor systems - immersive acoustic environments

Can anyone point me in the direction of already existing similar 
projects-softwares-ideas?
Any help is greatly appreciated,
thanks!
have bright days,
gio

_________________________________________________________________
Cimentati con nuove domande su Duel Live… 
http://specials.it.msn.com/DuelLive.aspx


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Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 23:49:56 +0000
From: Paul Pavlovich <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple?....What about you!
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 FILETIME=[E101D7E0:01C72ADA]

Every single person who lives in the developed west has in some way, shape, 
or form, (inadvertently) supported warfare, genocide, political 
destabilization, human rights abuses, gentrification, and environmental 
destruction.

If you have a bank account...a mortgage...a car payment...credit cards...pay 
taxes...buy produce in you local food store...buy beer...buy smokes...go to 
sporting events...rent an apartment...own a computer...buy CD’s...purchase 
books...use paper... All of us pay into the (sometime) unethical and 
(sometimes) criminal activities of the multi-national corporation and 
international banking systems. Don’t worry about IBM and Greenpeace. Try to 
remove yourself from the hypocrisy. Its much harder than you think.

If you feel your not a part of  a destructive system let me know how you do 
it...
Id like to join you on your planet.

assassination not hibernation.
P

_________________________________________________________________
The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here.  Get all the scoop. 
http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/


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From: Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] was Greenpeace vs apple is now IBM and nazi germany
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yeah I agree with you that it was not IBM that paved the way for this to 
happen, the killing machine was not ibm punchcards but rather a tool used 
for this horrific plan of hitler and his associates. I would never blame 
ibm for what happened ever, i just find it hard to belive that they had no 
idea what these punch card machines were being used for.
I also think it is important that we aknowlege that the company known as 
ibm in the 30s and 40s is a very different company then it is now. The 
people that ran the company then and the people that run it now are very 
different people.
no one is perfect is the thing to remember and as a child of a survivor I 
have tried hard to live my life like this. that some times people or 
corperations make horrible mistakes and its important to forgive for such 
mistakes as long as they are aknowleged and corrected.
this can be applied to ones personal life also, for example: I used to 
work for a company that is involved in the war in iraq, no idea 
what they do other then its technology driven, but as soon as I found this 
out I found my self a new job. I personally like you with ibm didnt want 
to be associated directly with such evil doings.

neil...

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Johan Nilsson wrote:

> Well, I wasn't initially going to reply because I realize it's getting way 
> off topic and as you say, it's hitting close to home for you and I don't mean 
> to upset you. I can't relate to how americans knew about the holocaust 
> because I was born in Sweden. In Sweden, surely enough, people knew the 
> nazi's were after the Jews. My grandfather, a seaman, helped Jewish children 
> get into hiding in Sweden. But everytime I talked to him about it, he always 
> said that even though he knew, he never thought it was as horrific as it 
> turned out to be. That's where I come from. But that being said, I still 
> stand by my statement that I think the whole IBM and the nazi Germany thing 
> is blown way out of porpotions. When people state that IBM laid the way for 
> the German war, I really want to know how one fights wars with punch card 
> machines, and what punch card machines has to do with the Nazi ideology. 
> Personally I think it's just a "hit" at one of the biggest corporations in 
> the world, but you can't really compare IBM of that day, to Big Blue today.
>
> But again, I did start by previous post with "Hm, I thought..." and I guess 
> that belongs in front of this post as well. I hope I do not insult you, I 
> just wanted to explain my opinion and again sorry to the rest for getting 
> off-topic.
>
> Johan.
>
> On Dec 28, 2006, at 6:50 AM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/
>> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jun2001/ibm-j27.shtml
>> 
>> there is plenty more just do a google search...
>> its pretty nieve for any one to think that people didnt knoww hat hitler 
>> and the nazi party were up to its not like they really hide it from any 
>> one... even if they sort of how could they hide it at the scale they were 
>> doing it (Im a child of a survivor so this subject hits very close to home 
>> for me). I think people like to say that they didnt know what they were up 
>> to, I think its more like people didnt want to belive it was happening and 
>> were there for in denial of it all. they were in dianl untill they could 
>> not any more, when they were presented with first hand pictures and stories 
>> from people then the west has no choice but to accept it. but to say they 
>> didnt now what was going on is IMHO an easy cop out.
>> neil..

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Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
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Well, I wasn't initially going to reply because I realize it's  
getting way off topic and as you say, it's hitting close to home for  
you and I don't mean to upset you. I can't relate to how americans  
knew about the holocaust because I was born in Sweden. In Sweden,  
surely enough, people knew the nazi's were after the Jews. My  
grandfather, a seaman, helped Jewish children get into hiding in  
Sweden. But everytime I talked to him about it, he always said that  
even though he knew, he never thought it was as horrific as it turned  
out to be. That's where I come from. But that being said, I still  
stand by my statement that I think the whole IBM and the nazi Germany  
thing is blown way out of porpotions. When people state that IBM laid  
the way for the German war, I really want to know how one fights wars  
with punch card machines, and what punch card machines has to do with  
the Nazi ideology. Personally I think it's just a "hit" at one of the  
biggest corporations in the world, but you can't really compare IBM  
of that day, to Big Blue today.

But again, I did start by previous post with "Hm, I thought..." and I  
guess that belongs in front of this post as well. I hope I do not  
insult you, I just wanted to explain my opinion and again sorry to  
the rest for getting off-topic.

Johan.

On Dec 28, 2006, at 6:50 AM, Neil Wiernik wrote:

>
>
> http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/
> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jun2001/ibm-j27.shtml
>
> there is plenty more just do a google search...
> its pretty nieve for any one to think that people didnt knoww hat  
> hitler and the nazi party were up to its not like they really hide  
> it from any one... even if they sort of how could they hide it at  
> the scale they were doing it (Im a child of a survivor so this  
> subject hits very close to home for me). I think people like to say  
> that they didnt know what they were up to, I think its more like  
> people didnt want to belive it was happening and were there for in  
> denial of it all. they were in dianl untill they could not any  
> more, when they were presented with first hand pictures and stories  
> from people then the west has no choice but to accept it. but to  
> say they didnt now what was going on is IMHO an easy cop out.
> neil..
>
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Johan Nilsson wrote:
>
>> Hm, I thought the only connection IBM had with Nazi Germany was  
>> that their punch card machines were used in concentration camps. I  
>> used to do contract work with IBM and this is what I was told.  
>> It's a bit of an emberassing part of IBM history, but not really  
>> something that'd stop me from working with them or their machines.  
>> I mean, who really believes IBM knew what was happening at those  
>> locations anyways?
>>
>> You guys make it sound like IBM built nuclear arms or something.
>>
>> Johan.
>>
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>
> ============================
> www.phoniq.net
> releases available on:
> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> publication:
> www.vagueterrain.net
>
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Subject: Re: [microsound] reduce, reuse, recycle redux
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>http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0810930951/104-5007103-0017509
>
>I bought this book for my wife as a xmas gift and I ended up 
>flipping through it for a few hours...I was very very impressed with 
>the information presented in it...
>maybe some interesting art projects could be inspired by  some of 
>the ideas in it?

showing my grey hair :: it reminds me of the Whole Earth Catalog's 
arrival :: and gawd, don't we need it now!!!  the question is, will 
it have the necessary impact?

John

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From ???@??? Thu Dec 28 17:04:58 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] Re: Greenpeace and apple
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Flame war?  Where have i been disrespectful?  Since you are so thorough 
maybe you can point it out to me?  As far as i can recall there was 
only one person who acted in a rude manner.

Sorry if it upset you in any way.  It was not my intention.

aLEKs


On Dec 28, 2006, at 11:50 AM, peter lasell wrote:

> Will you guys cut out the flame war?
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx" 
> <xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:37:03 AM
> Subject: microsound Digest 28 Dec 2006 15:37:03 -0000 Issue 1740
>
> microsound Digest 28 Dec 2006 15:37:03 -0000 Issue 1740
>
> Topics (messages 41144 through 41157):
>
> Re: Greenpeace and apple
>     41144 by: aleks vasic
>     41145 by: aleks vasic
>     41146 by: Neil Wiernik
>     41147 by: Jon
>     41148 by: xe non
>     41149 by: xe non
>     41150 by: Robert Arnold
>     41151 by: Neil Wiernik
>     41152 by: Neil Wiernik
>     41155 by: Johan Nilsson
>     41156 by: Neil Wiernik
>     41157 by: xe non
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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Will you guys cut out the flame war?

----- Original Message ----
From: "xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx" <xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:37:03 AM
Subject: microsound Digest 28 Dec 2006 15:37:03 -0000 Issue 1740

microsound Digest 28 Dec 2006 15:37:03 -0000 Issue 1740

Topics (messages 41144 through 41157):

Re: Greenpeace and apple
    41144 by: aleks vasic
    41145 by: aleks vasic
    41146 by: Neil Wiernik
    41147 by: Jon
    41148 by: xe non
    41149 by: xe non
    41150 by: Robert Arnold
    41151 by: Neil Wiernik
    41152 by: Neil Wiernik
    41155 by: Johan Nilsson
    41156 by: Neil Wiernik
    41157 by: xe non








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This comment is directed at no single person in particular.

I'm not trying to be rude, but if you'd use spell checkers before posting,
it might help represent your thoughts better.

I know it's hard to type something and proofread it every time before you
hit the send button, and no one's perfect.  But after years of reading
Slashdot comments, I've learned to favor the arguments of people who are
more traditional in their grammatical expression.

Plus, by proofreading, you are given the chance to revise anything written
that may have been spurred by heated passions as opposed to rational
argument, and we could all avoid having to sit through flamewar after
ridiculous flamewar.

I made sure to sit on this very email for a good half hour at before sending
it for the same reasons;  I don't want to pick a fight!

Again, this is not meant as an attack on your (plural) character. If you'd
rather see your comments be taken more seriously, this could help!  We'd all
be a lot better off if we could keep emotions to a minimum when debating,
and save our passions to pour into our respected creative projects.

 I'm on this list to learn about new trends in art and music, or discover
older ones that I may have missed.  I'm definitely not interested in these
pointless sparring matches full of off-the-cuff ad hominem remarks.

Take care, and enjoy the New Year.

~Kyle

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but nowhere in your "rhetoric" did you actually counter my argument, you just sort went into attack mode without actually saying anything. was your abusive response really the best you could do?
   
  i still say your objections to this greenpeace campaign really doesnt make any sense.
   
  yes greenpeace are "in the world"...do you really think they dont address the reality of this internally and look for the best possible solutions to the contradictions that come with that. even the most cynical part of me believes that they would do this even if only for public relations reasons. probably if you bothered to look around or ask you might find greenpeace's own policy regarding the resources they use, after all this is part of what they are asking apple to do.
   
   
  anyway...this is getting way off topic so this will be my last post in this particular thread.
   
  xe

Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
  
Im not slamming green peace Im slamming the rehtoric that you and aleks 
are spewing out.. I acctually for the most part support green peace just 
not when they dont look in thier own back yard at thier own politics...



On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:

> sexual abuse of animals? really?
>
> aleks....i suspect you and i are in the presence of a
> wind-up artist.
>
> if thats not the case -- neil, i really dont see what
> purpose slamming the greenpeace campaign serves. if you dont
> like it, dont participate, if greenpeace doesnt live up to
> your standards and goals (still unclear as to what those are
> exactly) move to the vanguard and do better, but really,
> your invective-filled non-critique (greenpeace isnt perfect
> so they should close up shop and go away???) is baffling
> and doesnt offer anything but vitriol.
>
> i still think the greenpeace campaign is nicely done... i
> wouldnt mind a microsound project in support by individuals
> so inclined, im not really a sound artist but rather
> video...if anyone feels a video portion would add to thier
> soundwork...drop a line.
>
> xe
>
>
> Neil Wiernik wrote:
> my point is that you argue things in excess, you fight other peoples
> battels for them and more over just like to hear your voice speak and for
> what NO REASON that I can see!!! jesus!!!!!!
>
> regarding your short sighted comment about ibm is that your sitting here
> and dissing apple when 99.9999999999999999 percent of all things produced
> for consumer wants/needs are opressing someone some where so like I said
> put a sock in it, no one really wants to hear your whining its a known
> fact that we all know adn live with... if you want to be perfect go live
> in a cave in the mountains and eat dirt and run around naked but even tehn
> youll opress come thing like the tiny bugs and bacteria youll kill when
> eating the dirt and the grass youll sept on running around naked
> not to mention the sexual abuse youll enforce on the poor animals as they
> are forced to watch you running naked through the mountains ... thats just
> terrable I think we should censor every thing as evil as its the only way
> we can live clean no opressive lives!!!
> (if you take this reply as serious dont even bother)
>
>
>
> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
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http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jun2001/ibm-j27.shtml

there is plenty more just do a google search...
its pretty nieve for any one to think that people didnt knoww hat hitler 
and the nazi party were up to its not like they really hide it from any 
one... even if they sort of how could they hide it at the scale they were 
doing it (Im a child of a survivor so this subject hits very close to home 
for me). I think people like to say that they didnt know what they were 
up to, I think its more like people didnt want to belive it was happening 
and were there for in denial of it all. they were in dianl untill they 
could not any more, when they were presented with first hand pictures and 
stories from people then the west has no choice but to accept it. but to 
say they didnt now what was going on is IMHO an easy cop out.
neil..



On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Johan Nilsson wrote:

> Hm, I thought the only connection IBM had with Nazi Germany was that their 
> punch card machines were used in concentration camps. I used to do contract 
> work with IBM and this is what I was told. It's a bit of an emberassing part 
> of IBM history, but not really something that'd stop me from working with 
> them or their machines. I mean, who really believes IBM knew what was 
> happening at those locations anyways?
>
> You guys make it sound like IBM built nuclear arms or something.
>
> Johan.
>
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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:51:06 -0800
From: Johan Nilsson <xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx>
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Hm, I thought the only connection IBM had with Nazi Germany was that  
their punch card machines were used in concentration camps. I used to  
do contract work with IBM and this is what I was told. It's a bit of  
an emberassing part of IBM history, but not really something that'd  
stop me from working with them or their machines. I mean, who really  
believes IBM knew what was happening at those locations anyways?

You guys make it sound like IBM built nuclear arms or something.

Johan.

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looks very interesting...I ordered a copy on amazon,
looking forward to read it!



On 12/27/06, Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0810930951/104-5007103-0017509
>
> I bought this book for my wife as a xmas gift and I ended up flipping
> through it for a few hours...I was very very impressed with the
> information presented in it...
> maybe some interesting art projects could be inspired by  some of the
> ideas in it?
>
>
>
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http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0810930951/104-5007103-0017509

I bought this book for my wife as a xmas gift and I ended up flipping  
through it for a few hours...I was very very impressed with the  
information presented in it...
maybe some interesting art projects could be inspired by  some of the  
ideas in it?

--Boundary_(ID_Vc4buL7+gIhoQkAL++Cf1g)--

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Im not slamming green peace Im slamming the rehtoric that you and aleks 
are spewing out.. I acctually for the most part support green peace just 
not when they dont look in thier own back yard at thier own politics...



On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:

> sexual abuse of animals? really?
>
>  aleks....i suspect you and i are in the presence of a
> wind-up artist.
>
>  if thats not the case -- neil, i really dont see what
> purpose slamming the greenpeace campaign serves. if you dont
> like it, dont participate, if greenpeace doesnt live up to
> your standards and goals (still unclear as to what those are
> exactly) move to the vanguard and do better,  but really,
> your invective-filled non-critique (greenpeace isnt perfect
> so they should close up shop and go away???) is baffling
> and doesnt offer anything but vitriol.
>
>  i still think the greenpeace campaign is nicely done... i
> wouldnt mind a microsound project in support by individuals
> so inclined, im not really a sound artist but rather
> video...if anyone feels a video portion would add to thier
> soundwork...drop a line.
>
>  xe
>
>
> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> my point is that you argue things in excess, you fight other peoples
> battels for them and more over just like to hear your voice speak and for
> what NO REASON that I can see!!! jesus!!!!!!
>
> regarding your short sighted comment about ibm is that your sitting here
> and dissing apple when 99.9999999999999999 percent of all things produced
> for consumer wants/needs are opressing someone some where so like I said
> put a sock in it, no one really wants to hear your whining its a known
> fact that we all know adn live with... if you want to be perfect go live
> in a cave in the mountains and eat dirt and run around naked but even tehn
> youll opress come thing like the tiny bugs and bacteria youll kill when
> eating the dirt and the grass youll sept on running around naked
> not to mention the sexual abuse youll enforce on the poor animals as they
> are forced to watch you running naked through the mountains ... thats just
> terrable I think we should censor every thing as evil as its the only way
> we can live clean no opressive lives!!!
> (if you take this reply as serious dont even bother)
>
>
>
> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

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go right a head ... passionate rants often result in some whacky 
slogans...


On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:

> this is actually quite lovely...can i borrow it?
>
>   to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind your white
> academic elephant...
>
> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

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(snip)

>or do you prefer the kaczynski method?


Much more entertaining and the audio part is spectacular!

R.

-- 



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this is actually quite lovely...can i borrow it?

   to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind your white 
academic elephant... 

"The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 22:06:47 2006
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sexual abuse of animals? really?
   
  aleks....i suspect you and i are in the presence of a 
wind-up artist. 
   
  if thats not the case -- neil, i really dont see what 
purpose slamming the greenpeace campaign serves. if you dont 
like it, dont participate, if greenpeace doesnt live up to 
your standards and goals (still unclear as to what those are 
exactly) move to the vanguard and do better,  but really, 
your invective-filled non-critique (greenpeace isnt perfect 
so they should close up shop and go away???) is baffling 
and doesnt offer anything but vitriol.
   
  i still think the greenpeace campaign is nicely done... i 
wouldnt mind a microsound project in support by individuals 
so inclined, im not really a sound artist but rather 
video...if anyone feels a video portion would add to thier 
soundwork...drop a line.
   
  xe


Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:  
my point is that you argue things in excess, you fight other peoples 
battels for them and more over just like to hear your voice speak and for 
what NO REASON that I can see!!! jesus!!!!!!

regarding your short sighted comment about ibm is that your sitting here 
and dissing apple when 99.9999999999999999 percent of all things produced 
for consumer wants/needs are opressing someone some where so like I said 
put a sock in it, no one really wants to hear your whining its a known 
fact that we all know adn live with... if you want to be perfect go live 
in a cave in the mountains and eat dirt and run around naked but even tehn 
youll opress come thing like the tiny bugs and bacteria youll kill when 
eating the dirt and the grass youll sept on running around naked
not to mention the sexual abuse youll enforce on the poor animals as they 
are forced to watch you running naked through the mountains ... thats just 
terrable I think we should censor every thing as evil as its the only way 
we can live clean no opressive lives!!!
(if you take this reply as serious dont even bother)



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monkey knife fight!  monkey knife fight!







.... ... ... ... ... ... ...
dizzydonor.org

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no problem aleks as I personally wouldnt really enjoy someone who likes to 
debate contantly ... it gets annoying


On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:

> No thanks, he seems too angry to have a logical debate with.
>
> aLEKs
>
>
> On Dec 27, 2006, at 4:13 PM, Derek Mason wrote:
>
>> Will you two go and drink more Egg Nog and be merry.
>> 
>> Create a Rant-n-Rave list and go at it.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Neil Wiernik" <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
>>> To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>>> Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
>>> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:11:01 -0500 (EST)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> my point is that you argue things in excess, you fight other
>>> peoples battels for them and more over just like to hear your voice
>>> speak and for what NO REASON that I can see!!! jesus!!!!!!
>>> 
>>> regarding your short sighted comment about ibm is that your sitting
>>> here and dissing apple when 99.9999999999999999 percent of all
>>> things produced for consumer wants/needs are opressing someone some
>>> where so like I said put a sock in it, no one really wants to hear
>>> your whining its a known fact that we all know adn live with... if
>>> you want to be perfect go live in a cave in the mountains and eat
>>> dirt and run around naked but even tehn youll opress come thing
>>> like the tiny bugs and bacteria youll kill when eating the dirt and
>>> the grass youll sept on running around naked
>>> not to mention the sexual abuse youll enforce on the poor animals
>>> as they are forced to watch you running naked through the mountains
>>> ... thats just terrable I think we should censor every thing as
>>> evil as its the only way we can live clean no opressive lives!!!
>>> (if you take this reply as serious dont even bother)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>> 
>>>> In regards to flame wars, your the only one that seems to respond
>>>> with anger and spite when someone offers a differing opinion.
>>>> Reread the thread, your the only one that insults anyone.
>>>> 
>>>> IBM developed technology for the Nazis, as did many corporations
>>>> that are still around today.  I still do not see how Greenpeace
>>>> has anything to do with IBM and the Holocaust.  How do you know
>>>> what types of computers Greenpeace uses?  Gimme some point of
>>>> reference.  And if they do use technology that was developed
>>>> decades after WWII what does it matter?  Does that undo the good
>>>> that they do?  Do you suggest that they cease to exist because of
>>>> IBM checkered past via WWII, developing technology that is not
>>>> even in use today for the most part?  Should use apple/mac who
>>>> uses impoverished asian work forces to assemble their
>>>> uber/expensive sheik design friendly computers?
>>>> 
>>>> aLEKs
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:43 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> no Im saying that greenpeace if not using a mac most likely in
>>>>> some form or manner uses IBM products which IMHO as a company
>>>>> are far more worse then apple ever will be in that IBM supported
>>>>> and built technology for the nazi's in world war 2. sp the
>>>>> technology that navigates thier ships or Im sure the laptops
>>>>> they use are ibms if not apples machines also... so before they
>>>>> stick thier foot deeper into their moths they should stop and
>>>>> think is what Im sayign get it now????
>>>>> 
>>>>> you keep telling me offenxe and that your not being
>>>>> condescending but you and the other person what ever his name is
>>>>> are and mor eover you say how much you hate flame wars but both
>>>>> times I have posted recently it has been you that manages to
>>>>> create a flame war, by your stuborn arguments... your entitled
>>>>> to your opinion just like I am leave it at that !!
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I do not see how his response was condescending.  It was a
>>>>>> response to your claim that Greenpeace is hypocritical with
>>>>>> their ideology.  Which i also agree is a rather weak argument
>>>>>> on your part, no offense intended. Green peace cannot be
>>>>>> compared to IBM.  IBM's sole motivator is profits. Where Green
>>>>>> Peace ideology is global conservation.  All of their resources
>>>>>> go toward raising awareness in regards to mans inability to
>>>>>> live in balance with his environment.  Sure they need modern
>>>>>> technology in order to operate with any sort of effective
>>>>>> impact.  They do so with a lot of foresight.  Are they perfect?
>>>>>> No, nothing is perfect really in this world, but to claim that
>>>>>> they are no different then mega corporations, or entities
>>>>>> driven solely by profits is misguided.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It is true that everyone is entitled to an opinion.  What
>>>>>> predicates a solid opinion is that it is well thought out as
>>>>>> well as being based with a solid point of reference, i.e. facts.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Again no offense intended.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> aLEKs
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> his responce was extreemly condisending...
>>>>>>> towards me and towards any one else that might think
>>>>>>> diffeently then he does...
>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>>>>>> You are a crass individual.  His rationale is logical and i
>>>>>>>> do not see how it can be misconstrued as overbearing, just
>>>>>>>> the opposite actually. You need to relax and stop being so
>>>>>>>> defensive.  If everyone was to act as you do this list would
>>>>>>>> be one giant flame war.  What are you even being defensive
>>>>>>>> about? I am honestly having a hard time deciphering your
>>>>>>>> response?  His first response was a very logical and well
>>>>>>>> thought out observation.
>>>>>>>> Have some respect...
>>>>>>>> aLEKs
>>>>>>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>>>>> oh shut up and put a sock in it no one here wants to hear
>>>>>>>>> your upper class white bread mombo jumbo!!! pretentious twit!
>>>>>>>>> its so simple to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind
>>>>>>>>> your white academic elephant... try getting into the thick
>>>>>>>>> of it knee deep in tear gas, police sticks and rubber
>>>>>>>>> bullets then come talk to me!
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it
>>>>>>>>>> at best misguided.
>>>>>>>>>> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> its not a wierd rant at all...
>>>>>>>>>> its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about 
>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>> trash...
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> what a strange rant...
>>>>>>>>>>> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the
>>>>>>>>>>> contradictions of being "in the world" when it comes to
>>>>>>>>>>> effective activism and they make thier peace with the
>>>>>>>>>>> compromises they know they will have to make somewhere
>>>>>>>>>>> around thier sophmore year at college. yes, they will
>>>>>>>>>>> probably have to use cars, yes they will have to live in
>>>>>>>>>>> buildings made with wood, yes they will use electricity
>>>>>>>>>>> and do thier work with wasteful and toxic technology...if
>>>>>>>>>>> they choose to stay engaged with society in order to help
>>>>>>>>>>> change it yes. this is a realists approach. will they
>>>>>>>>>>> minimize all this...most likely, as best thay can.
>>>>>>>>>>> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the
>>>>>>>>>>> modern world and try to communicate the information they
>>>>>>>>>>> have and coordinate thier campaigns from a computerless
>>>>>>>>>>> shack in the woods in order to meet your peerless
>>>>>>>>>>> standards for acceptable activism, but we all know how
>>>>>>>>>>> well that turned out for the unabomber and all concerned.
>>>>>>>>>>> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective
>>>>>>>>>>> way it calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from
>>>>>>>>>>> computers in general. targeting the company with the most
>>>>>>>>>>> eco-friendly public image that it doesnt live up to, seems
>>>>>>>>>>> an effective way to accomplish that goal. at least it is
>>>>>>>>>>> done with good-humour and stays focused on the problem, or
>>>>>>>>>>> do you prefer the kaczynski method?
>>>>>>>>>>> xe
>>>>>>>>>>> Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> the larger question is does green peace use computers at
>>>>>>>>>>> all as if they do
>>>>>>>>>>> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if
>>>>>>>>>>> they want to spin
>>>>>>>>>>> things that way any how...
>>>>>>>>>>> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
>>>>>>>>>>> rather then against..
>>>>>>>>>>> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who 
>>>>>>>>>>> IBM
>>>>>>>>>>> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like
>>>>>>>>>>> they are holier
>>>>>>>>>>> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I
>>>>>>>>>>> mean what powers
>>>>>>>>>>> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
>>>>>>>>>>> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take 
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> time to look in their own back yard before pointing
>>>>>>>>>>> fingers it pisses me
>>>>>>>>>>> off!!!
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
>>>>>>>>>>>> specific companies then making a POINT
>>>>>>>>>>>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>> and now Apple?...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not talk about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem, and work for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enacting national legislation following the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> progressive European
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems gratuitous...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Send instant messages to your online friends
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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>>>>>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>>>>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>>>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>>>>>>>> publication:
>>>>>>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
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>>>>>>>>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant
>>>>>>>>>>> changes to the RV."
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>>>>>>>>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>>>>>>>>>> ============================
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>>>>>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
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>>>>>>>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the 
>>>>>>>>>> RV."
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>>>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>> ============================
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>> 
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>>> releases available on:
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>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 21:16:46 2006
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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:16:28 -0500
From: aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
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No thanks, he seems too angry to have a logical debate with.

aLEKs


On Dec 27, 2006, at 4:13 PM, Derek Mason wrote:

> Will you two go and drink more Egg Nog and be merry.
>
> Create a Rant-n-Rave list and go at it.
>
>
>
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Neil Wiernik" <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
>> To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
>> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:11:01 -0500 (EST)
>>
>>
>>
>> my point is that you argue things in excess, you fight other
>> peoples battels for them and more over just like to hear your voice
>> speak and for what NO REASON that I can see!!! jesus!!!!!!
>>
>> regarding your short sighted comment about ibm is that your sitting
>> here and dissing apple when 99.9999999999999999 percent of all
>> things produced for consumer wants/needs are opressing someone some
>> where so like I said put a sock in it, no one really wants to hear
>> your whining its a known fact that we all know adn live with... if
>> you want to be perfect go live in a cave in the mountains and eat
>> dirt and run around naked but even tehn youll opress come thing
>> like the tiny bugs and bacteria youll kill when eating the dirt and
>> the grass youll sept on running around naked
>> not to mention the sexual abuse youll enforce on the poor animals
>> as they are forced to watch you running naked through the mountains
>> ... thats just terrable I think we should censor every thing as
>> evil as its the only way we can live clean no opressive lives!!!
>> (if you take this reply as serious dont even bother)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>
>>> In regards to flame wars, your the only one that seems to respond
>>> with anger and spite when someone offers a differing opinion.
>>> Reread the thread, your the only one that insults anyone.
>>>
>>> IBM developed technology for the Nazis, as did many corporations
>>> that are still around today.  I still do not see how Greenpeace
>>> has anything to do with IBM and the Holocaust.  How do you know
>>> what types of computers Greenpeace uses?  Gimme some point of
>>> reference.  And if they do use technology that was developed
>>> decades after WWII what does it matter?  Does that undo the good
>>> that they do?  Do you suggest that they cease to exist because of
>>> IBM checkered past via WWII, developing technology that is not
>>> even in use today for the most part?  Should use apple/mac who
>>> uses impoverished asian work forces to assemble their
>>> uber/expensive sheik design friendly computers?
>>>
>>> aLEKs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:43 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> no Im saying that greenpeace if not using a mac most likely in
>>>> some form or manner uses IBM products which IMHO as a company
>>>> are far more worse then apple ever will be in that IBM supported
>>>> and built technology for the nazi's in world war 2. sp the
>>>> technology that navigates thier ships or Im sure the laptops
>>>> they use are ibms if not apples machines also... so before they
>>>> stick thier foot deeper into their moths they should stop and
>>>> think is what Im sayign get it now????
>>>>
>>>> you keep telling me offenxe and that your not being
>>>> condescending but you and the other person what ever his name is
>>>> are and mor eover you say how much you hate flame wars but both
>>>> times I have posted recently it has been you that manages to
>>>> create a flame war, by your stuborn arguments... your entitled
>>>> to your opinion just like I am leave it at that !!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I do not see how his response was condescending.  It was a
>>>>> response to your claim that Greenpeace is hypocritical with
>>>>> their ideology.  Which i also agree is a rather weak argument
>>>>> on your part, no offense intended. Green peace cannot be
>>>>> compared to IBM.  IBM's sole motivator is profits. Where Green
>>>>> Peace ideology is global conservation.  All of their resources
>>>>> go toward raising awareness in regards to mans inability to
>>>>> live in balance with his environment.  Sure they need modern
>>>>> technology in order to operate with any sort of effective
>>>>> impact.  They do so with a lot of foresight.  Are they perfect?
>>>>>  No, nothing is perfect really in this world, but to claim that
>>>>> they are no different then mega corporations, or entities
>>>>> driven solely by profits is misguided.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is true that everyone is entitled to an opinion.  What
>>>>> predicates a solid opinion is that it is well thought out as
>>>>> well as being based with a solid point of reference, i.e. facts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again no offense intended.
>>>>>
>>>>> aLEKs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> his responce was extreemly condisending...
>>>>>> towards me and towards any one else that might think
>>>>>> diffeently then he does...
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>>>>> You are a crass individual.  His rationale is logical and i
>>>>>>> do not see how it can be misconstrued as overbearing, just
>>>>>>> the opposite actually. You need to relax and stop being so
>>>>>>> defensive.  If everyone was to act as you do this list would
>>>>>>> be one giant flame war.  What are you even being defensive
>>>>>>> about? I am honestly having a hard time deciphering your
>>>>>>> response?  His first response was a very logical and well
>>>>>>> thought out observation.
>>>>>>> Have some respect...
>>>>>>> aLEKs
>>>>>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>>>> oh shut up and put a sock in it no one here wants to hear
>>>>>>>> your upper class white bread mombo jumbo!!! pretentious twit!
>>>>>>>> its so simple to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind
>>>>>>>> your white academic elephant... try getting into the thick
>>>>>>>> of it knee deep in tear gas, police sticks and rubber
>>>>>>>> bullets then come talk to me!
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>>>>>> it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it
>>>>>>>>> at best misguided.
>>>>>>>>> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> its not a wierd rant at all...
>>>>>>>>> its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about  
>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>> trash...
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> what a strange rant...
>>>>>>>>>> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the
>>>>>>>>>> contradictions of being "in the world" when it comes to
>>>>>>>>>> effective activism and they make thier peace with the
>>>>>>>>>> compromises they know they will have to make somewhere
>>>>>>>>>> around thier sophmore year at college. yes, they will
>>>>>>>>>> probably have to use cars, yes they will have to live in
>>>>>>>>>> buildings made with wood, yes they will use electricity
>>>>>>>>>> and do thier work with wasteful and toxic technology...if
>>>>>>>>>> they choose to stay engaged with society in order to help
>>>>>>>>>> change it yes. this is a realists approach. will they
>>>>>>>>>> minimize all this...most likely, as best thay can.
>>>>>>>>>> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the
>>>>>>>>>> modern world and try to communicate the information they
>>>>>>>>>> have and coordinate thier campaigns from a computerless
>>>>>>>>>> shack in the woods in order to meet your peerless
>>>>>>>>>> standards for acceptable activism, but we all know how
>>>>>>>>>> well that turned out for the unabomber and all concerned.
>>>>>>>>>> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective
>>>>>>>>>> way it calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from
>>>>>>>>>> computers in general. targeting the company with the most
>>>>>>>>>> eco-friendly public image that it doesnt live up to, seems
>>>>>>>>>> an effective way to accomplish that goal. at least it is
>>>>>>>>>> done with good-humour and stays focused on the problem, or
>>>>>>>>>> do you prefer the kaczynski method?
>>>>>>>>>> xe
>>>>>>>>>> Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> the larger question is does green peace use computers at
>>>>>>>>>> all as if they do
>>>>>>>>>> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if
>>>>>>>>>> they want to spin
>>>>>>>>>> things that way any how...
>>>>>>>>>> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for  
>>>>>>>>>> them...
>>>>>>>>>> rather then against..
>>>>>>>>>> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all  
>>>>>>>>>> know who IBM
>>>>>>>>>> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like
>>>>>>>>>> they are holier
>>>>>>>>>> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I
>>>>>>>>>> mean what powers
>>>>>>>>>> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
>>>>>>>>>> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont  
>>>>>>>>>> take the
>>>>>>>>>> time to look in their own back yard before pointing
>>>>>>>>>> fingers it pisses me
>>>>>>>>>> off!!!
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
>>>>>>>>>>> specific companies then making a POINT
>>>>>>>>>>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
>>>>>>>>>>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>>>>>>>>>>> and now Apple?...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>>>>>>>>>>>> not talk about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> problem, and work for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enacting national legislation following the
>>>>>>>>>>>> progressive European
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems gratuitous...
>>>>>>>>>>> Send instant messages to your online friends
>>>>>>>>>>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>>>>>>> --------
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:  
>>>>>>>>>>> xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>>>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>>>>>>> publication:
>>>>>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>>>>>> -------
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>>>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant
>>>>>>>>>> changes to the RV."
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>>>>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>>>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>>>>>> publication:
>>>>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to  
>>>>>>>>> the RV."
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>>>>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>>>>> publication:
>>>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>>> publication:
>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>> --
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ============================
>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>> releases available on:
>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>> publication:
>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>> -
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>
>>
>> ============================
>> www.phoniq.net
>> releases available on:
>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>> publication:
>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>>
>
>
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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:14:51 -0500
From: aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
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Im not dissing apple.  Just as profit motivated as the next mega  
corporation.

Short sighted comment in regards to IBM?  How so?  Care to elaborate?

Why are you so angry?

Disclaimer:  This email was typed on a Mac.  Does this make me a  
hypocrite?

aLEKs



On Dec 27, 2006, at 4:11 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:

>
> my point is that you argue things in excess, you fight other peoples  
> battels for them and more over just like to hear your voice speak and  
> for what NO REASON that I can see!!! jesus!!!!!!
>
> regarding your short sighted comment about ibm is that your sitting  
> here and dissing apple when 99.9999999999999999 percent of all things  
> produced for consumer wants/needs are opressing someone some where so  
> like I said put a sock in it, no one really wants to hear your whining  
> its a known fact that we all know adn live with... if you want to be  
> perfect go live in a cave in the mountains and eat dirt and run around  
> naked but even tehn youll opress come thing like the tiny bugs and  
> bacteria youll kill when eating the dirt and the grass youll sept on  
> running around naked
> not to mention the sexual abuse youll enforce on the poor animals as  
> they are forced to watch you running naked through the mountains ...  
> thats just terrable I think we should censor every thing as evil as  
> its the only way we can live clean no opressive lives!!!
> (if you take this reply as serious dont even bother)
>
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>
>> In regards to flame wars, your the only one that seems to respond  
>> with anger and spite when someone offers a differing opinion.  Reread  
>> the thread, your the only one that insults anyone.
>>
>> IBM developed technology for the Nazis, as did many corporations that  
>> are still around today.  I still do not see how Greenpeace has  
>> anything to do with IBM and the Holocaust.  How do you know what  
>> types of computers Greenpeace uses?  Gimme some point of reference.   
>> And if they do use technology that was developed decades after WWII  
>> what does it matter?  Does that undo the good that they do?  Do you  
>> suggest that they cease to exist because of IBM checkered past via  
>> WWII, developing technology that is not even in use today for the  
>> most part?  Should use apple/mac who uses impoverished asian work  
>> forces to assemble their uber/expensive sheik design friendly  
>> computers?
>>
>> aLEKs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:43 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>
>>> no Im saying that greenpeace if not using a mac most likely in some  
>>> form or manner uses IBM products which IMHO as a company are far  
>>> more worse then apple ever will be in that IBM supported and built  
>>> technology for the nazi's in world war 2. sp the technology that  
>>> navigates thier ships or Im sure the laptops they use are ibms if  
>>> not apples machines also... so before they stick thier foot deeper  
>>> into their moths they should stop and think is what Im sayign get it  
>>> now????
>>> you keep telling me offenxe and that your not being condescending  
>>> but you and the other person what ever his name is are and mor eover  
>>> you say how much you hate flame wars but both times I have posted  
>>> recently it has been you that manages to create a flame war, by your  
>>> stuborn arguments... your entitled to your opinion just like I am  
>>> leave it at that !!
>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>> I do not see how his response was condescending.  It was a response  
>>>> to your claim that Greenpeace is hypocritical with their ideology.   
>>>> Which i also agree is a rather weak argument on your part, no  
>>>> offense intended. Green peace cannot be compared to IBM.  IBM's  
>>>> sole motivator is profits. Where Green Peace ideology is global  
>>>> conservation.  All of their resources go toward raising awareness  
>>>> in regards to mans inability to live in balance with his  
>>>> environment.  Sure they need modern technology in order to operate  
>>>> with any sort of effective impact.  They do so with a lot of  
>>>> foresight.  Are they perfect?  No, nothing is perfect really in  
>>>> this world, but to claim that they are no different then mega  
>>>> corporations, or entities driven solely by profits is misguided.
>>>> It is true that everyone is entitled to an opinion.  What  
>>>> predicates a solid opinion is that it is well thought out as well  
>>>> as being based with a solid point of reference, i.e. facts.
>>>> Again no offense intended.
>>>> aLEKs
>>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>> his responce was extreemly condisending...
>>>>> towards me and towards any one else that might think diffeently  
>>>>> then he does...
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>>>> You are a crass individual.  His rationale is logical and i do  
>>>>>> not see how it can be misconstrued as overbearing, just the  
>>>>>> opposite actually. You need to relax and stop being so defensive.  
>>>>>>  If everyone was to act as you do this list would be one giant  
>>>>>> flame war.  What are you even being defensive about? I am  
>>>>>> honestly having a hard time deciphering your response?  His first  
>>>>>> response was a very logical and well thought out observation.
>>>>>> Have some respect...
>>>>>> aLEKs
>>>>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>>> oh shut up and put a sock in it no one here wants to hear your  
>>>>>>> upper class white bread mombo jumbo!!! pretentious twit!
>>>>>>> its so simple to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind your  
>>>>>>> white academic elephant... try getting into the thick of it knee  
>>>>>>> deep in tear gas, police sticks and rubber bullets then come  
>>>>>>> talk to me!
>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>>>>> it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it at  
>>>>>>>> best misguided.
>>>>>>>> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>> its not a wierd rant at all...
>>>>>>>> its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about  
>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>> trash...
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>>>>>> what a strange rant...
>>>>>>>>> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the contradictions  
>>>>>>>>> of being "in the world" when it comes to effective activism  
>>>>>>>>> and they make thier peace with the compromises they know they  
>>>>>>>>> will have to make somewhere around thier sophmore year at  
>>>>>>>>> college. yes, they will probably have to use cars, yes they  
>>>>>>>>> will have to live in buildings made with wood, yes they will  
>>>>>>>>> use electricity and do thier work with wasteful and toxic  
>>>>>>>>> technology...if they choose to stay engaged with society in  
>>>>>>>>> order to help change it yes. this is a realists approach. will  
>>>>>>>>> they minimize all this...most likely, as best thay can.
>>>>>>>>> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the modern  
>>>>>>>>> world and try to communicate the information they have and  
>>>>>>>>> coordinate thier campaigns from a computerless shack in the  
>>>>>>>>> woods in order to meet your peerless standards for acceptable  
>>>>>>>>> activism, but we all know how well that turned out for the  
>>>>>>>>> unabomber and all concerned.
>>>>>>>>> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective way  
>>>>>>>>> it calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from  
>>>>>>>>> computers in general. targeting the company with the most  
>>>>>>>>> eco-friendly public image that it doesnt live up to, seems an  
>>>>>>>>> effective way to accomplish that goal. at least it is done  
>>>>>>>>> with good-humour and stays focused on the problem, or do you  
>>>>>>>>> prefer the kaczynski method?
>>>>>>>>> xe
>>>>>>>>> Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>>>>> the larger question is does green peace use computers at all  
>>>>>>>>> as if they do
>>>>>>>>> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they  
>>>>>>>>> want to spin
>>>>>>>>> things that way any how...
>>>>>>>>> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
>>>>>>>>> rather then against..
>>>>>>>>> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know  
>>>>>>>>> who IBM
>>>>>>>>> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they  
>>>>>>>>> are holier
>>>>>>>>> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean  
>>>>>>>>> what powers
>>>>>>>>> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
>>>>>>>>> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont  
>>>>>>>>> take the
>>>>>>>>> time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it  
>>>>>>>>> pisses me
>>>>>>>>> off!!!
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
>>>>>>>>>> specific companies then making a POINT
>>>>>>>>>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
>>>>>>>>>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>>>>>>>>>> and now Apple?...
>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>>>>>>>>>>> not talk about
>>>>>>>>>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>>>>>>>>>>> problem, and work for
>>>>>>>>>>>> enacting national legislation following the
>>>>>>>>>>> progressive European
>>>>>>>>>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>>>>>>>>>>> seems gratuitous...
>>>>>>>>>> Send instant messages to your online friends  
>>>>>>>>>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>>>>>> -------
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>>>>>> publication:
>>>>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to  
>>>>>>>>> the RV."
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>>>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>>>>> publication:
>>>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to  
>>>>>>>> the RV."
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>>>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>>>> publication:
>>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>> ============================
>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>> publication:
>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>> --
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>> -
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>> ============================
>>> www.phoniq.net
>>> releases available on:
>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>> publication:
>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>>
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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 21:14:05 2006
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Will you two go and drink more Egg Nog and be merry.

Create a Rant-n-Rave list and go at it.  





> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neil Wiernik" <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
> To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:11:01 -0500 (EST)
> 
> 
> 
> my point is that you argue things in excess, you fight other 
> peoples battels for them and more over just like to hear your voice 
> speak and for what NO REASON that I can see!!! jesus!!!!!!
> 
> regarding your short sighted comment about ibm is that your sitting 
> here and dissing apple when 99.9999999999999999 percent of all 
> things produced for consumer wants/needs are opressing someone some 
> where so like I said put a sock in it, no one really wants to hear 
> your whining its a known fact that we all know adn live with... if 
> you want to be perfect go live in a cave in the mountains and eat 
> dirt and run around naked but even tehn youll opress come thing 
> like the tiny bugs and bacteria youll kill when eating the dirt and 
> the grass youll sept on running around naked
> not to mention the sexual abuse youll enforce on the poor animals 
> as they are forced to watch you running naked through the mountains 
> ... thats just terrable I think we should censor every thing as 
> evil as its the only way we can live clean no opressive lives!!!
> (if you take this reply as serious dont even bother)
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
> 
> > In regards to flame wars, your the only one that seems to respond 
> > with anger and spite when someone offers a differing opinion.  
> > Reread the thread, your the only one that insults anyone.
> >
> > IBM developed technology for the Nazis, as did many corporations 
> > that are still around today.  I still do not see how Greenpeace 
> > has anything to do with IBM and the Holocaust.  How do you know 
> > what types of computers Greenpeace uses?  Gimme some point of 
> > reference.  And if they do use technology that was developed 
> > decades after WWII what does it matter?  Does that undo the good 
> > that they do?  Do you suggest that they cease to exist because of 
> > IBM checkered past via WWII, developing technology that is not 
> > even in use today for the most part?  Should use apple/mac who 
> > uses impoverished asian work forces to assemble their 
> > uber/expensive sheik design friendly computers?
> >
> > aLEKs
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:43 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> no Im saying that greenpeace if not using a mac most likely in 
> >> some form or manner uses IBM products which IMHO as a company 
> >> are far more worse then apple ever will be in that IBM supported 
> >> and built technology for the nazi's in world war 2. sp the 
> >> technology that navigates thier ships or Im sure the laptops 
> >> they use are ibms if not apples machines also... so before they 
> >> stick thier foot deeper into their moths they should stop and 
> >> think is what Im sayign get it now????
> >>
> >> you keep telling me offenxe and that your not being 
> >> condescending but you and the other person what ever his name is 
> >> are and mor eover you say how much you hate flame wars but both 
> >> times I have posted recently it has been you that manages to 
> >> create a flame war, by your stuborn arguments... your entitled 
> >> to your opinion just like I am leave it at that !!
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
> >>
> >>> I do not see how his response was condescending.  It was a 
> >>> response to your claim that Greenpeace is hypocritical with 
> >>> their ideology.  Which i also agree is a rather weak argument 
> >>> on your part, no offense intended. Green peace cannot be 
> >>> compared to IBM.  IBM's sole motivator is profits. Where Green 
> >>> Peace ideology is global conservation.  All of their resources 
> >>> go toward raising awareness in regards to mans inability to 
> >>> live in balance with his environment.  Sure they need modern 
> >>> technology in order to operate with any sort of effective 
> >>> impact.  They do so with a lot of foresight.  Are they perfect? 
> >>>  No, nothing is perfect really in this world, but to claim that 
> >>> they are no different then mega corporations, or entities 
> >>> driven solely by profits is misguided.
> >>>
> >>> It is true that everyone is entitled to an opinion.  What 
> >>> predicates a solid opinion is that it is well thought out as 
> >>> well as being based with a solid point of reference, i.e. facts.
> >>>
> >>> Again no offense intended.
> >>>
> >>> aLEKs
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> his responce was extreemly condisending...
> >>>> towards me and towards any one else that might think 
> >>>> diffeently then he does...
> >>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
> >>>>> You are a crass individual.  His rationale is logical and i 
> >>>>> do not see how it can be misconstrued as overbearing, just 
> >>>>> the opposite actually. You need to relax and stop being so 
> >>>>> defensive.  If everyone was to act as you do this list would 
> >>>>> be one giant flame war.  What are you even being defensive 
> >>>>> about? I am honestly having a hard time deciphering your 
> >>>>> response?  His first response was a very logical and well 
> >>>>> thought out observation.
> >>>>> Have some respect...
> >>>>> aLEKs
> >>>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
> >>>>>> oh shut up and put a sock in it no one here wants to hear 
> >>>>>> your upper class white bread mombo jumbo!!! pretentious twit!
> >>>>>> its so simple to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind 
> >>>>>> your white academic elephant... try getting into the thick 
> >>>>>> of it knee deep in tear gas, police sticks and rubber 
> >>>>>> bullets then come talk to me!
> >>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
> >>>>>>> it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it 
> >>>>>>> at best misguided.
> >>>>>>> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>> its not a wierd rant at all...
> >>>>>>> its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about others
> >>>>>>> trash...
> >>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
> >>>>>>>> what a strange rant...
> >>>>>>>> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the 
> >>>>>>>> contradictions of being "in the world" when it comes to 
> >>>>>>>> effective activism and they make thier peace with the 
> >>>>>>>> compromises they know they will have to make somewhere 
> >>>>>>>> around thier sophmore year at college. yes, they will 
> >>>>>>>> probably have to use cars, yes they will have to live in 
> >>>>>>>> buildings made with wood, yes they will use electricity 
> >>>>>>>> and do thier work with wasteful and toxic technology...if 
> >>>>>>>> they choose to stay engaged with society in order to help 
> >>>>>>>> change it yes. this is a realists approach. will they 
> >>>>>>>> minimize all this...most likely, as best thay can.
> >>>>>>>> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the 
> >>>>>>>> modern world and try to communicate the information they 
> >>>>>>>> have and coordinate thier campaigns from a computerless 
> >>>>>>>> shack in the woods in order to meet your peerless 
> >>>>>>>> standards for acceptable activism, but we all know how 
> >>>>>>>> well that turned out for the unabomber and all concerned.
> >>>>>>>> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective 
> >>>>>>>> way it calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from 
> >>>>>>>> computers in general. targeting the company with the most 
> >>>>>>>> eco-friendly public image that it doesnt live up to, seems 
> >>>>>>>> an effective way to accomplish that goal. at least it is 
> >>>>>>>> done with good-humour and stays focused on the problem, or 
> >>>>>>>> do you prefer the kaczynski method?
> >>>>>>>> xe
> >>>>>>>> Neil Wiernik wrote:
> >>>>>>>> the larger question is does green peace use computers at 
> >>>>>>>> all as if they do
> >>>>>>>> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if 
> >>>>>>>> they want to spin
> >>>>>>>> things that way any how...
> >>>>>>>> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
> >>>>>>>> rather then against..
> >>>>>>>> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who IBM
> >>>>>>>> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like 
> >>>>>>>> they are holier
> >>>>>>>> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I 
> >>>>>>>> mean what powers
> >>>>>>>> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
> >>>>>>>> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take the
> >>>>>>>> time to look in their own back yard before pointing 
> >>>>>>>> fingers it pisses me
> >>>>>>>> off!!!
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
> >>>>>>>>> specific companies then making a POINT
> >>>>>>>>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
> >>>>>>>>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
> >>>>>>>>> and now Apple?...
> >>>>>>>>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
> >>>>>>>>>> not talk about
> >>>>>>>>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
> >>>>>>>>>> problem, and work for
> >>>>>>>>>>> enacting national legislation following the
> >>>>>>>>>> progressive European
> >>>>>>>>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
> >>>>>>>>>> seems gratuitous...
> >>>>>>>>> Send instant messages to your online friends 
> >>>>>>>>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >>>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
> >>>>>>>> ============================
> >>>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
> >>>>>>>> releases available on:
> >>>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> >>>>>>>> publication:
> >>>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
> >>>>>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant 
> >>>>>>>> changes to the RV."
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
> >>>>>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >>>>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >>>>>>> ============================
> >>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
> >>>>>>> releases available on:
> >>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> >>>>>>> publication:
> >>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>


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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 21:09:13 2006
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From: Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
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my point is that you argue things in excess, you fight other peoples 
battels for them and more over just like to hear your voice speak and for 
what NO REASON that I can see!!! jesus!!!!!!

regarding your short sighted comment about ibm is that your sitting here 
and dissing apple when 99.9999999999999999 percent of all things produced 
for consumer wants/needs are opressing someone some where so like I said 
put a sock in it, no one really wants to hear your whining its a known 
fact that we all know adn live with... if you want to be perfect go live 
in a cave in the mountains and eat dirt and run around naked but even tehn 
youll opress come thing like the tiny bugs and bacteria youll kill when 
eating the dirt and the grass youll sept on running around naked
not to mention the sexual abuse youll enforce on the poor animals as they 
are forced to watch you running naked through the mountains ... thats just 
terrable I think we should censor every thing as evil as its the only way 
we can live clean no opressive lives!!!
(if you take this reply as serious dont even bother)



On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:

> In regards to flame wars, your the only one that seems to respond with anger 
> and spite when someone offers a differing opinion.  Reread the thread, your 
> the only one that insults anyone.
>
> IBM developed technology for the Nazis, as did many corporations that are 
> still around today.  I still do not see how Greenpeace has anything to do 
> with IBM and the Holocaust.  How do you know what types of computers 
> Greenpeace uses?  Gimme some point of reference.  And if they do use 
> technology that was developed decades after WWII what does it matter?  Does 
> that undo the good that they do?  Do you suggest that they cease to exist 
> because of IBM checkered past via WWII, developing technology that is not 
> even in use today for the most part?  Should use apple/mac who uses 
> impoverished asian work forces to assemble their uber/expensive sheik design 
> friendly computers?
>
> aLEKs
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:43 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>
>> 
>> no Im saying that greenpeace if not using a mac most likely in some form or 
>> manner uses IBM products which IMHO as a company are far more worse then 
>> apple ever will be in that IBM supported and built technology for the 
>> nazi's in world war 2. sp the technology that navigates thier ships or Im 
>> sure the laptops they use are ibms if not apples machines also... so before 
>> they stick thier foot deeper into their moths they should stop and think is 
>> what Im sayign get it now????
>> 
>> you keep telling me offenxe and that your not being condescending but you 
>> and the other person what ever his name is are and mor eover you say how 
>> much you hate flame wars but both times I have posted recently it has been 
>> you that manages to create a flame war, by your stuborn arguments... your 
>> entitled to your opinion just like I am leave it at that !!
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>> 
>>> I do not see how his response was condescending.  It was a response to 
>>> your claim that Greenpeace is hypocritical with their ideology.  Which i 
>>> also agree is a rather weak argument on your part, no offense intended. 
>>> Green peace cannot be compared to IBM.  IBM's sole motivator is profits. 
>>> Where Green Peace ideology is global conservation.  All of their resources 
>>> go toward raising awareness in regards to mans inability to live in 
>>> balance with his environment.  Sure they need modern technology in order 
>>> to operate with any sort of effective impact.  They do so with a lot of 
>>> foresight.  Are they perfect?  No, nothing is perfect really in this 
>>> world, but to claim that they are no different then mega corporations, or 
>>> entities driven solely by profits is misguided.
>>> 
>>> It is true that everyone is entitled to an opinion.  What predicates a 
>>> solid opinion is that it is well thought out as well as being based with a 
>>> solid point of reference, i.e. facts.
>>> 
>>> Again no offense intended.
>>> 
>>> aLEKs
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>> 
>>>> his responce was extreemly condisending...
>>>> towards me and towards any one else that might think diffeently then he 
>>>> does...
>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>>> You are a crass individual.  His rationale is logical and i do not see 
>>>>> how it can be misconstrued as overbearing, just the opposite actually. 
>>>>> You need to relax and stop being so defensive.  If everyone was to act 
>>>>> as you do this list would be one giant flame war.  What are you even 
>>>>> being defensive about? I am honestly having a hard time deciphering your 
>>>>> response?  His first response was a very logical and well thought out 
>>>>> observation.
>>>>> Have some respect...
>>>>> aLEKs
>>>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>> oh shut up and put a sock in it no one here wants to hear your upper 
>>>>>> class white bread mombo jumbo!!! pretentious twit!
>>>>>> its so simple to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind your white 
>>>>>> academic elephant... try getting into the thick of it knee deep in tear 
>>>>>> gas, police sticks and rubber bullets then come talk to me!
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>>>> it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it at best 
>>>>>>> misguided.
>>>>>>> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>>>>> its not a wierd rant at all...
>>>>>>> its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about others
>>>>>>> trash...
>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>>>>> what a strange rant...
>>>>>>>> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the contradictions of 
>>>>>>>> being "in the world" when it comes to effective activism and they 
>>>>>>>> make thier peace with the compromises they know they will have to 
>>>>>>>> make somewhere around thier sophmore year at college. yes, they will 
>>>>>>>> probably have to use cars, yes they will have to live in buildings 
>>>>>>>> made with wood, yes they will use electricity and do thier work with 
>>>>>>>> wasteful and toxic technology...if they choose to stay engaged with 
>>>>>>>> society in order to help change it yes. this is a realists approach. 
>>>>>>>> will they minimize all this...most likely, as best thay can.
>>>>>>>> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the modern world 
>>>>>>>> and try to communicate the information they have and coordinate thier 
>>>>>>>> campaigns from a computerless shack in the woods in order to meet 
>>>>>>>> your peerless standards for acceptable activism, but we all know how 
>>>>>>>> well that turned out for the unabomber and all concerned.
>>>>>>>> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective way it 
>>>>>>>> calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from computers in 
>>>>>>>> general. targeting the company with the most eco-friendly public 
>>>>>>>> image that it doesnt live up to, seems an effective way to accomplish 
>>>>>>>> that goal. at least it is done with good-humour and stays focused on 
>>>>>>>> the problem, or do you prefer the kaczynski method?
>>>>>>>> xe
>>>>>>>> Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>>>> the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as if 
>>>>>>>> they do
>>>>>>>> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they want to 
>>>>>>>> spin
>>>>>>>> things that way any how...
>>>>>>>> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
>>>>>>>> rather then against..
>>>>>>>> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who 
>>>>>>>> IBM
>>>>>>>> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they are 
>>>>>>>> holier
>>>>>>>> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean what 
>>>>>>>> powers
>>>>>>>> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
>>>>>>>> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it pisses 
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> off!!!
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
>>>>>>>>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
>>>>>>>>> specific companies then making a POINT
>>>>>>>>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
>>>>>>>>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>>>>>>>>> and now Apple?...
>>>>>>>>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>>>>>>>>>> not talk about
>>>>>>>>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>>>>>>>>>> problem, and work for
>>>>>>>>>>> enacting national legislation following the
>>>>>>>>>> progressive European
>>>>>>>>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>>>>>>>>>> seems gratuitous...
>>>>>>>>> Send instant messages to your online friends 
>>>>>>>>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>>>> ============================
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>>>>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>>>>> publication:
>>>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>>>>>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>> RV."
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>>>>>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 20:57:01 2006
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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:56:52 -0500
From: aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
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In regards to flame wars, your the only one that seems to respond with  
anger and spite when someone offers a differing opinion.  Reread the  
thread, your the only one that insults anyone.

IBM developed technology for the Nazis, as did many corporations that  
are still around today.  I still do not see how Greenpeace has anything  
to do with IBM and the Holocaust.  How do you know what types of  
computers Greenpeace uses?  Gimme some point of reference.  And if they  
do use technology that was developed decades after WWII what does it  
matter?  Does that undo the good that they do?  Do you suggest that  
they cease to exist because of IBM checkered past via WWII, developing  
technology that is not even in use today for the most part?  Should use  
apple/mac who uses impoverished asian work forces to assemble their  
uber/expensive sheik design friendly computers?

aLEKs





On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:43 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:

>
> no Im saying that greenpeace if not using a mac most likely in some  
> form or manner uses IBM products which IMHO as a company are far more  
> worse then apple ever will be in that IBM supported and built  
> technology for the nazi's in world war 2. sp the technology that  
> navigates thier ships or Im sure the laptops they use are ibms if not  
> apples machines also... so before they stick thier foot deeper into  
> their moths they should stop and think is what Im sayign get it  
> now????
>
> you keep telling me offenxe and that your not being condescending but  
> you and the other person what ever his name is are and mor eover you  
> say how much you hate flame wars but both times I have posted recently  
> it has been you that manages to create a flame war, by your stuborn  
> arguments... your entitled to your opinion just like I am leave it at  
> that !!
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>
>> I do not see how his response was condescending.  It was a response  
>> to your claim that Greenpeace is hypocritical with their ideology.   
>> Which i also agree is a rather weak argument on your part, no offense  
>> intended.  Green peace cannot be compared to IBM.  IBM's sole  
>> motivator is profits.  Where Green Peace ideology is global  
>> conservation.  All of their resources go toward raising awareness in  
>> regards to mans inability to live in balance with his environment.   
>> Sure they need modern technology in order to operate with any sort of  
>> effective impact.  They do so with a lot of foresight.  Are they  
>> perfect?  No, nothing is perfect really in this world, but to claim  
>> that they are no different then mega corporations, or entities driven  
>> solely by profits is misguided.
>>
>> It is true that everyone is entitled to an opinion.  What predicates  
>> a solid opinion is that it is well thought out as well as being based  
>> with a solid point of reference, i.e. facts.
>>
>> Again no offense intended.
>>
>> aLEKs
>>
>>
>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>
>>> his responce was extreemly condisending...
>>> towards me and towards any one else that might think diffeently then  
>>> he does...
>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>> You are a crass individual.  His rationale is logical and i do not  
>>>> see how it can be misconstrued as overbearing, just the opposite  
>>>> actually.  You need to relax and stop being so defensive.  If  
>>>> everyone was to act as you do this list would be one giant flame  
>>>> war.  What are you even being defensive about? I am honestly having  
>>>> a hard time deciphering your response?  His first response was a  
>>>> very logical and well thought out observation.
>>>> Have some respect...
>>>> aLEKs
>>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>> oh shut up and put a sock in it no one here wants to hear your  
>>>>> upper class white bread mombo jumbo!!! pretentious twit!
>>>>> its so simple to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind your  
>>>>> white academic elephant... try getting into the thick of it knee  
>>>>> deep in tear gas, police sticks and rubber bullets then come talk  
>>>>> to me!
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>>> it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it at  
>>>>>> best misguided.
>>>>>> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>>>> its not a wierd rant at all...
>>>>>> its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about  
>>>>>> others
>>>>>> trash...
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>>>> what a strange rant...
>>>>>>> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the contradictions of  
>>>>>>> being "in the world" when it comes to effective activism and  
>>>>>>> they make thier peace with the compromises they know they will  
>>>>>>> have to make somewhere around thier sophmore year at college.  
>>>>>>> yes, they will probably have to use cars, yes they will have to  
>>>>>>> live in buildings made with wood, yes they will use electricity  
>>>>>>> and do thier work with wasteful and toxic technology...if they  
>>>>>>> choose to stay engaged with society in order to help change it  
>>>>>>> yes. this is a realists approach. will they minimize all  
>>>>>>> this...most likely, as best thay can.
>>>>>>> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the modern  
>>>>>>> world and try to communicate the information they have and  
>>>>>>> coordinate thier campaigns from a computerless shack in the  
>>>>>>> woods in order to meet your peerless standards for acceptable  
>>>>>>> activism, but we all know how well that turned out for the  
>>>>>>> unabomber and all concerned.
>>>>>>> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective way  
>>>>>>> it calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from computers  
>>>>>>> in general. targeting the company with the most eco-friendly  
>>>>>>> public image that it doesnt live up to, seems an effective way  
>>>>>>> to accomplish that goal. at least it is done with good-humour  
>>>>>>> and stays focused on the problem, or do you prefer the kaczynski  
>>>>>>> method?
>>>>>>> xe
>>>>>>> Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>>> the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as  
>>>>>>> if they do
>>>>>>> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they  
>>>>>>> want to spin
>>>>>>> things that way any how...
>>>>>>> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
>>>>>>> rather then against..
>>>>>>> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know  
>>>>>>> who IBM
>>>>>>> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they  
>>>>>>> are holier
>>>>>>> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean what  
>>>>>>> powers
>>>>>>> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
>>>>>>> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont  
>>>>>>> take the
>>>>>>> time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it  
>>>>>>> pisses me
>>>>>>> off!!!
>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
>>>>>>>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
>>>>>>>> specific companies then making a POINT
>>>>>>>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
>>>>>>>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>>>>>>>> and now Apple?...
>>>>>>>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>>>>>>>>> not talk about
>>>>>>>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>>>>>>>>> problem, and work for
>>>>>>>>>> enacting national legislation following the
>>>>>>>>> progressive European
>>>>>>>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>>>>>>>>> seems gratuitous...
>>>>>>>> Send instant messages to your online friends  
>>>>>>>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>>>> publication:
>>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to  
>>>>>>> the RV."
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>>> publication:
>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to  
>>>>>> the RV."
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>>> ============================
>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>> publication:
>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>> --
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>> -
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>> ============================
>>> www.phoniq.net
>>> releases available on:
>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>> publication:
>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>>
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>>
>
> ============================
> www.phoniq.net
> releases available on:
> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> publication:
> www.vagueterrain.net
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 20:42:02 2006
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no Im saying that greenpeace if not using a mac most likely in some form 
or manner uses IBM products which IMHO as a company are far more worse 
then apple ever will be in that IBM supported and built technology for the 
nazi's in world war 2. sp the technology that navigates thier ships or Im 
sure the laptops they use are ibms if not apples machines also... so 
before they stick thier foot deeper into their moths they should stop and 
think is what Im sayign get it now????

you keep telling me offenxe and that your not being condescending but you 
and the other person what ever his name is are and mor eover you say how 
much you hate flame wars but both times I have posted recently it has been 
you that manages to create a flame war, by your stuborn arguments... your 
entitled to your opinion just like I am leave it at that !!


On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:

> I do not see how his response was condescending.  It was a response to your 
> claim that Greenpeace is hypocritical with their ideology.  Which i also 
> agree is a rather weak argument on your part, no offense intended.  Green 
> peace cannot be compared to IBM.  IBM's sole motivator is profits.  Where 
> Green Peace ideology is global conservation.  All of their resources go 
> toward raising awareness in regards to mans inability to live in balance with 
> his environment.  Sure they need modern technology in order to operate with 
> any sort of effective impact.  They do so with a lot of foresight.  Are they 
> perfect?  No, nothing is perfect really in this world, but to claim that they 
> are no different then mega corporations, or entities driven solely by profits 
> is misguided.
>
> It is true that everyone is entitled to an opinion.  What predicates a solid 
> opinion is that it is well thought out as well as being based with a solid 
> point of reference, i.e. facts.
>
> Again no offense intended.
>
> aLEKs
>
>
> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> his responce was extreemly condisending...
>> towards me and towards any one else that might think diffeently then he 
>> does...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>> 
>>> You are a crass individual.  His rationale is logical and i do not see how 
>>> it can be misconstrued as overbearing, just the opposite actually.  You 
>>> need to relax and stop being so defensive.  If everyone was to act as you 
>>> do this list would be one giant flame war.  What are you even being 
>>> defensive about? I am honestly having a hard time deciphering your 
>>> response?  His first response was a very logical and well thought out 
>>> observation.
>>> 
>>> Have some respect...
>>> 
>>> aLEKs
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>> 
>>>> oh shut up and put a sock in it no one here wants to hear your upper 
>>>> class white bread mombo jumbo!!! pretentious twit!
>>>> its so simple to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind your white 
>>>> academic elephant... try getting into the thick of it knee deep in tear 
>>>> gas, police sticks and rubber bullets then come talk to me!
>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>> it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it at best 
>>>>> misguided.
>>>>> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>>> its not a wierd rant at all...
>>>>> its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about others
>>>>> trash...
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>>> what a strange rant...
>>>>>> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the contradictions of being 
>>>>>> "in the world" when it comes to effective activism and they make thier 
>>>>>> peace with the compromises they know they will have to make somewhere 
>>>>>> around thier sophmore year at college. yes, they will probably have to 
>>>>>> use cars, yes they will have to live in buildings made with wood, yes 
>>>>>> they will use electricity and do thier work with wasteful and toxic 
>>>>>> technology...if they choose to stay engaged with society in order to 
>>>>>> help change it yes. this is a realists approach. will they minimize all 
>>>>>> this...most likely, as best thay can.
>>>>>> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the modern world and 
>>>>>> try to communicate the information they have and coordinate thier 
>>>>>> campaigns from a computerless shack in the woods in order to meet your 
>>>>>> peerless standards for acceptable activism, but we all know how well 
>>>>>> that turned out for the unabomber and all concerned.
>>>>>> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective way it calls 
>>>>>> attention to the problem of toxic waste from computers in general. 
>>>>>> targeting the company with the most eco-friendly public image that it 
>>>>>> doesnt live up to, seems an effective way to accomplish that goal. at 
>>>>>> least it is done with good-humour and stays focused on the problem, or 
>>>>>> do you prefer the kaczynski method?
>>>>>> xe
>>>>>> Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>> the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as if they 
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they want to 
>>>>>> spin
>>>>>> things that way any how...
>>>>>> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
>>>>>> rather then against..
>>>>>> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who IBM
>>>>>> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they are 
>>>>>> holier
>>>>>> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean what powers
>>>>>> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
>>>>>> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take the
>>>>>> time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it pisses 
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> off!!!
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
>>>>>>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
>>>>>>> specific companies then making a POINT
>>>>>>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
>>>>>>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>>>>>>> and now Apple?...
>>>>>>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>>>>>>>> not talk about
>>>>>>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>>>>>>>> problem, and work for
>>>>>>>>> enacting national legislation following the
>>>>>>>> progressive European
>>>>>>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>>>>>>>> seems gratuitous...
>>>>>>> Send instant messages to your online friends 
>>>>>>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>>> publication:
>>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>>> ============================
>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>> publication:
>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>> ============================
>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>> releases available on:
>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>> publication:
>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> 
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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 20:29:59 2006
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From: aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
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I do not see how his response was condescending.  It was a response to  
your claim that Greenpeace is hypocritical with their ideology.  Which  
i also agree is a rather weak argument on your part, no offense  
intended.  Green peace cannot be compared to IBM.  IBM's sole motivator  
is profits.  Where Green Peace ideology is global conservation.  All of  
their resources go toward raising awareness in regards to mans  
inability to live in balance with his environment.  Sure they need  
modern technology in order to operate with any sort of effective  
impact.  They do so with a lot of foresight.  Are they perfect?  No,  
nothing is perfect really in this world, but to claim that they are no  
different then mega corporations, or entities driven solely by profits  
is misguided.

It is true that everyone is entitled to an opinion.  What predicates a  
solid opinion is that it is well thought out as well as being based  
with a solid point of reference, i.e. facts.

Again no offense intended.

aLEKs


On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:

>
>
> his responce was extreemly condisending...
> towards me and towards any one else that might think diffeently then  
> he does...
>
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>
>> You are a crass individual.  His rationale is logical and i do not  
>> see how it can be misconstrued as overbearing, just the opposite  
>> actually.  You need to relax and stop being so defensive.  If  
>> everyone was to act as you do this list would be one giant flame war.  
>>  What are you even being defensive about? I am honestly having a hard  
>> time deciphering your response?  His first response was a very  
>> logical and well thought out observation.
>>
>> Have some respect...
>>
>> aLEKs
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>
>>> oh shut up and put a sock in it no one here wants to hear your upper  
>>> class white bread mombo jumbo!!! pretentious twit!
>>> its so simple to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind your  
>>> white academic elephant... try getting into the thick of it knee  
>>> deep in tear gas, police sticks and rubber bullets then come talk to  
>>> me!
>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>> it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it at best  
>>>> misguided.
>>>> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>> its not a wierd rant at all...
>>>> its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about others
>>>> trash...
>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>>>> what a strange rant...
>>>>> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the contradictions of  
>>>>> being "in the world" when it comes to effective activism and they  
>>>>> make thier peace with the compromises they know they will have to  
>>>>> make somewhere around thier sophmore year at college. yes, they  
>>>>> will probably have to use cars, yes they will have to live in  
>>>>> buildings made with wood, yes they will use electricity and do  
>>>>> thier work with wasteful and toxic technology...if they choose to  
>>>>> stay engaged with society in order to help change it yes. this is  
>>>>> a realists approach. will they minimize all this...most likely, as  
>>>>> best thay can.
>>>>> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the modern  
>>>>> world and try to communicate the information they have and  
>>>>> coordinate thier campaigns from a computerless shack in the woods  
>>>>> in order to meet your peerless standards for acceptable activism,  
>>>>> but we all know how well that turned out for the unabomber and all  
>>>>> concerned.
>>>>> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective way it  
>>>>> calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from computers in  
>>>>> general. targeting the company with the most eco-friendly public  
>>>>> image that it doesnt live up to, seems an effective way to  
>>>>> accomplish that goal. at least it is done with good-humour and  
>>>>> stays focused on the problem, or do you prefer the kaczynski  
>>>>> method?
>>>>> xe
>>>>> Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>> the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as if  
>>>>> they do
>>>>> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they want  
>>>>> to spin
>>>>> things that way any how...
>>>>> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
>>>>> rather then against..
>>>>> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who  
>>>>> IBM
>>>>> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they are  
>>>>> holier
>>>>> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean what  
>>>>> powers
>>>>> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
>>>>> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take  
>>>>> the
>>>>> time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it  
>>>>> pisses me
>>>>> off!!!
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
>>>>>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
>>>>>> specific companies then making a POINT
>>>>>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
>>>>>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>>>>>> and now Apple?...
>>>>>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>>>>>>> not talk about
>>>>>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>>>>>>> problem, and work for
>>>>>>>> enacting national legislation following the
>>>>>>> progressive European
>>>>>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>>>>>>> seems gratuitous...
>>>>>> Send instant messages to your online friends  
>>>>>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>> ============================
>>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>>> releases available on:
>>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>>> publication:
>>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>> --
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the  
>>>>> RV."
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>> ============================
>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>> releases available on:
>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>> publication:
>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>> -
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the  
>>>> RV."
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>> ============================
>>> www.phoniq.net
>>> releases available on:
>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
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>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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>>
>
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> releases available on:
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> www.vagueterrain.net
>
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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 20:18:53 2006
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his responce was extreemly condisending...
towards me and towards any one else that might think diffeently then he 
does...



On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, aleks vasic wrote:

> You are a crass individual.  His rationale is logical and i do not see how it 
> can be misconstrued as overbearing, just the opposite actually.  You need to 
> relax and stop being so defensive.  If everyone was to act as you do this 
> list would be one giant flame war.  What are you even being defensive about? 
> I am honestly having a hard time deciphering your response?  His first 
> response was a very logical and well thought out observation.
>
> Have some respect...
>
> aLEKs
>
>
>
> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> oh shut up and put a sock in it no one here wants to hear your upper class 
>> white bread mombo jumbo!!! pretentious twit!
>> its so simple to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind your white 
>> academic elephant... try getting into the thick of it knee deep in tear 
>> gas, police sticks and rubber bullets then come talk to me!
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>> 
>>> it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it at best 
>>> misguided.
>>> 
>>> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>> 
>>> its not a wierd rant at all...
>>> its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about others
>>> trash...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>> 
>>>> what a strange rant...
>>>> 
>>>> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the contradictions of being 
>>>> "in the world" when it comes to effective activism and they make thier 
>>>> peace with the compromises they know they will have to make somewhere 
>>>> around thier sophmore year at college. yes, they will probably have to 
>>>> use cars, yes they will have to live in buildings made with wood, yes 
>>>> they will use electricity and do thier work with wasteful and toxic 
>>>> technology...if they choose to stay engaged with society in order to help 
>>>> change it yes. this is a realists approach. will they minimize all 
>>>> this...most likely, as best thay can.
>>>> 
>>>> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the modern world and 
>>>> try to communicate the information they have and coordinate thier 
>>>> campaigns from a computerless shack in the woods in order to meet your 
>>>> peerless standards for acceptable activism, but we all know how well that 
>>>> turned out for the unabomber and all concerned.
>>>> 
>>>> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective way it calls 
>>>> attention to the problem of toxic waste from computers in general. 
>>>> targeting the company with the most eco-friendly public image that it 
>>>> doesnt live up to, seems an effective way to accomplish that goal. at 
>>>> least it is done with good-humour and stays focused on the problem, or do 
>>>> you prefer the kaczynski method?
>>>> 
>>>> xe
>>>> 
>>>> Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as if they 
>>>> do
>>>> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they want to spin
>>>> things that way any how...
>>>> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
>>>> rather then against..
>>>> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who IBM
>>>> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they are holier
>>>> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean what powers
>>>> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
>>>> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take the
>>>> time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it pisses me
>>>> off!!!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
>>>>> specific companies then making a POINT
>>>>> 
>>>>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
>>>>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> and now Apple?...
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>>>>>> not talk about
>>>>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>>>>>> problem, and work for
>>>>>>> enacting national legislation following the
>>>>>> progressive European
>>>>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>>>>>> seems gratuitous...
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Send instant messages to your online friends 
>>>>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ============================
>>>> www.phoniq.net
>>>> releases available on:
>>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>>> publication:
>>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>> 
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>> 
>>> ============================
>>> www.phoniq.net
>>> releases available on:
>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>> publication:
>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>> 
>> ============================
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>> releases available on:
>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
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>> www.vagueterrain.net
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 20:16:47 2006
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Is there any recordings of these computes being smashed?  Anything?


 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "aleks vasic" <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>
> To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:06:51 -0500
> 
> 
> You are a crass individual.  His rationale is logical and i do not 
> see  how it can be misconstrued as overbearing, just the opposite 
> actually.   You need to relax and stop being so defensive.  If 
> everyone was to act  as you do this list would be one giant flame 
> war.  What are you even  being defensive about?  I am honestly 
> having a hard time deciphering  your response?  His first response 
> was a very logical and well thought  out observation.
> 
> Have some respect...
> 
> aLEKs
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > oh shut up and put a sock in it no one here wants to hear your 
> > upper  class white bread mombo jumbo!!! pretentious twit!
> > its so simple to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind your 
> > white  academic elephant... try getting into the thick of it knee 
> > deep in  tear gas, police sticks and rubber bullets then come 
> > talk to me!
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
> >
> >> it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it at 
> >> best  misguided.
> >>
> >> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> >>
> >> its not a wierd rant at all...
> >> its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about others
> >> trash...
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
> >>
> >>> what a strange rant...
> >>>
> >>> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the contradictions 
> >>> of  being "in the world" when it comes to effective activism 
> >>> and they  make thier peace with the compromises they know they 
> >>> will have to  make somewhere around thier sophmore year at 
> >>> college. yes, they will  probably have to use cars, yes they 
> >>> will have to live in buildings  made with wood, yes they will 
> >>> use electricity and do thier work with  wasteful and toxic 
> >>> technology...if they choose to stay engaged with  society in 
> >>> order to help change it yes. this is a realists approach.  will 
> >>> they minimize all this...most likely, as best thay can.
> >>>
> >>> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the modern 
> >>> world  and try to communicate the information they have and 
> >>> coordinate  thier campaigns from a computerless shack in the 
> >>> woods in order to  meet your peerless standards for acceptable 
> >>> activism, but we all  know how well that turned out for the 
> >>> unabomber and all concerned.
> >>>
> >>> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective way 
> >>> it  calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from 
> >>> computers in  general. targeting the company with the most 
> >>> eco-friendly public  image that it doesnt live up to, seems an 
> >>> effective way to  accomplish that goal. at least it is done 
> >>> with good-humour and stays  focused on the problem, or do you 
> >>> prefer the kaczynski method?
> >>>
> >>> xe
> >>>
> >>> Neil Wiernik wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as if  they do
> >>> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they want to  spin
> >>> things that way any how...
> >>> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
> >>> rather then against..
> >>> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who  IBM
> >>> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they are  holier
> >>> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean what  powers
> >>> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
> >>> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take  the
> >>> time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it  pisses me
> >>> off!!!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
> >>>> specific companies then making a POINT
> >>>>
> >>>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
> >>>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> and now Apple?...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
> >>>>> not talk about
> >>>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
> >>>>> problem, and work for
> >>>>>> enacting national legislation following the
> >>>>> progressive European
> >>>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
> >>>>> seems gratuitous...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Send instant messages to your online friends  
> >>>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >>>>
> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- -
> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ============================
> >>> www.phoniq.net
> >>> releases available on:
> >>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> >>> publication:
> >>> www.vagueterrain.net
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >>> website: http://www.microsound.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the  RV."
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>> Do You Yahoo!?
> >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >>> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >>
> >> ============================
> >> www.phoniq.net
> >> releases available on:
> >> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> >> publication:
> >> www.vagueterrain.net
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >> website: http://www.microsound.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the  RV."
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Do You Yahoo!?
> >> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> > ============================
> > www.phoniq.net
> > releases available on:
> > www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> > publication:
> > www.vagueterrain.net
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> >
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>


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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 20:07:01 2006
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From: aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
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You are a crass individual.  His rationale is logical and i do not see  
how it can be misconstrued as overbearing, just the opposite actually.   
You need to relax and stop being so defensive.  If everyone was to act  
as you do this list would be one giant flame war.  What are you even  
being defensive about?  I am honestly having a hard time deciphering  
your response?  His first response was a very logical and well thought  
out observation.

Have some respect...

aLEKs



On Dec 27, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:

>
>
> oh shut up and put a sock in it no one here wants to hear your upper  
> class white bread mombo jumbo!!! pretentious twit!
> its so simple to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind your white  
> academic elephant... try getting into the thick of it knee deep in  
> tear gas, police sticks and rubber bullets then come talk to me!
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>
>> it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it at best  
>> misguided.
>>
>> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>
>> its not a wierd rant at all...
>> its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about others
>> trash...
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>>
>>> what a strange rant...
>>>
>>> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the contradictions of  
>>> being "in the world" when it comes to effective activism and they  
>>> make thier peace with the compromises they know they will have to  
>>> make somewhere around thier sophmore year at college. yes, they will  
>>> probably have to use cars, yes they will have to live in buildings  
>>> made with wood, yes they will use electricity and do thier work with  
>>> wasteful and toxic technology...if they choose to stay engaged with  
>>> society in order to help change it yes. this is a realists approach.  
>>> will they minimize all this...most likely, as best thay can.
>>>
>>> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the modern world  
>>> and try to communicate the information they have and coordinate  
>>> thier campaigns from a computerless shack in the woods in order to  
>>> meet your peerless standards for acceptable activism, but we all  
>>> know how well that turned out for the unabomber and all concerned.
>>>
>>> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective way it  
>>> calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from computers in  
>>> general. targeting the company with the most eco-friendly public  
>>> image that it doesnt live up to, seems an effective way to  
>>> accomplish that goal. at least it is done with good-humour and stays  
>>> focused on the problem, or do you prefer the kaczynski method?
>>>
>>> xe
>>>
>>> Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as if  
>>> they do
>>> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they want to  
>>> spin
>>> things that way any how...
>>> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
>>> rather then against..
>>> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who  
>>> IBM
>>> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they are  
>>> holier
>>> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean what  
>>> powers
>>> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
>>> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take  
>>> the
>>> time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it  
>>> pisses me
>>> off!!!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
>>>
>>>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
>>>> specific companies then making a POINT
>>>>
>>>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
>>>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>> and now Apple?...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>>>>> not talk about
>>>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>>>>> problem, and work for
>>>>>> enacting national legislation following the
>>>>> progressive European
>>>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>>>>> seems gratuitous...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send instant messages to your online friends  
>>>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>> -
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ============================
>>> www.phoniq.net
>>> releases available on:
>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>> publication:
>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the  
>>> RV."
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>> ============================
>> www.phoniq.net
>> releases available on:
>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>> publication:
>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the  
>> RV."
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ============================
> www.phoniq.net
> releases available on:
> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> publication:
> www.vagueterrain.net
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>


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oh shut up and put a sock in it no one here wants to hear your upper class 
white bread mombo jumbo!!! pretentious twit!
its so simple to speak from the ivory tower hidding behind your white 
academic elephant... try getting into the thick of it knee deep in tear 
gas, police sticks and rubber bullets then come talk to me!


On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:

> it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it at best misguided.
>
> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> its not a wierd rant at all...
> its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about others
> trash...
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:
>
>> what a strange rant...
>>
>> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the contradictions of being "in the world" when it comes to effective activism and they make thier peace with the compromises they know they will have to make somewhere around thier sophmore year at college. yes, they will probably have to use cars, yes they will have to live in buildings made with wood, yes they will use electricity and do thier work with wasteful and toxic technology...if they choose to stay engaged with society in order to help change it yes. this is a realists approach. will they minimize all this...most likely, as best thay can.
>>
>> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the modern world and try to communicate the information they have and coordinate thier campaigns from a computerless shack in the woods in order to meet your peerless standards for acceptable activism, but we all know how well that turned out for the unabomber and all concerned.
>>
>> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective way it calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from computers in general. targeting the company with the most eco-friendly public image that it doesnt live up to, seems an effective way to accomplish that goal. at least it is done with good-humour and stays focused on the problem, or do you prefer the kaczynski method?
>>
>> xe
>>
>> Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>
>>
>> the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as if they do
>> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they want to spin
>> things that way any how...
>> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
>> rather then against..
>> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who IBM
>> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they are holier
>> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean what powers
>> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
>> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take the
>> time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it pisses me
>> off!!!
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
>>
>>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
>>> specific companies then making a POINT
>>>
>>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
>>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>>>
>>> and now Apple?...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>>>> not talk about
>>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>>>> problem, and work for
>>>>> enacting national legislation following the
>>>> progressive European
>>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>>>> seems gratuitous...
>>>
>>>
>>> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ============================
>> www.phoniq.net
>> releases available on:
>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>> publication:
>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ============================
> www.phoniq.net
> releases available on:
> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> publication:
> www.vagueterrain.net
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>
>
>
> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

============================
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releases available on:
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From: xe non <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
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it drastically oversimplifies the situation which makes it at best misguided.

Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:  

its not a wierd rant at all...
its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about others 
trash...


On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:

> what a strange rant...
>
> yes, every environmentalist struggles with the contradictions of being "in the world" when it comes to effective activism and they make thier peace with the compromises they know they will have to make somewhere around thier sophmore year at college. yes, they will probably have to use cars, yes they will have to live in buildings made with wood, yes they will use electricity and do thier work with wasteful and toxic technology...if they choose to stay engaged with society in order to help change it yes. this is a realists approach. will they minimize all this...most likely, as best thay can.
>
> i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the modern world and try to communicate the information they have and coordinate thier campaigns from a computerless shack in the woods in order to meet your peerless standards for acceptable activism, but we all know how well that turned out for the unabomber and all concerned.
>
> this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective way it calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from computers in general. targeting the company with the most eco-friendly public image that it doesnt live up to, seems an effective way to accomplish that goal. at least it is done with good-humour and stays focused on the problem, or do you prefer the kaczynski method?
>
> xe
>
> Neil Wiernik wrote:
>
>
> the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as if they do
> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they want to spin
> things that way any how...
> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
> rather then against..
> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who IBM
> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they are holier
> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean what powers
> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take the
> time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it pisses me
> off!!!
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
>
>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
>> specific companies then making a POINT
>>
>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>>
>> and now Apple?...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>>> not talk about
>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>>> problem, and work for
>>>> enacting national legislation following the
>>> progressive European
>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>>> seems gratuitous...
>>
>>
>> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>>
>
> ============================
> www.phoniq.net
> releases available on:
> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> publication:
> www.vagueterrain.net
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>
>
>
> "The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

============================
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"The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 19:21:00 2006
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its not a wierd rant at all...
its basic look in your own trash can before complaining about others 
trash...


On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, xe non wrote:

> what a strange rant...
>
>  yes, every environmentalist struggles with the contradictions of being "in the world" when it comes to effective activism and they make thier peace with the compromises they know they will have to make somewhere around thier sophmore year at college. yes, they will probably have to use cars, yes they will have to live in buildings made with wood, yes they will use electricity and do thier work with wasteful and toxic technology...if they choose to stay engaged with society in order to help change it yes. this is a realists approach. will they minimize all this...most likely, as best thay can.
>
>  i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the modern world and try to communicate the information they have and coordinate thier campaigns  from a computerless shack in the woods in order to meet your peerless standards for acceptable activism, but we all know how well that turned out for the unabomber and all concerned.
>
>  this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective way it calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from computers in general. targeting the company with the most eco-friendly public image that it doesnt live up to, seems an effective way to accomplish that goal. at least it is done with good-humour and stays focused on the problem, or do you prefer the kaczynski method?
>
>  xe
>
> Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>
> the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as if they do
> they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they want to spin
> things that way any how...
> why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
> rather then against..
> Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who IBM
> helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they are holier
> then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean what powers
> thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
> I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take the
> time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it pisses me
> off!!!
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:
>
>> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
>> specific companies then making a POINT
>>
>> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
>> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>>
>> and now Apple?...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>>> not talk about
>>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>>> problem, and work for
>>>> enacting national legislation following the
>>> progressive European
>>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>>> seems gratuitous...
>>
>>
>> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>>
>>
>
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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 19:17:54 2006
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>the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as if 
>they do they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they 
>want to spin things that way any how...
>why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...

not to mention they are deploying an online campaign!  doh!

>I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take 
>the time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it 
>pisses me off!!!

totally!

cheers
John




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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 19:08:18 2006
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what a strange rant...
   
  yes, every environmentalist struggles with the contradictions of being "in the world" when it comes to effective activism and they make thier peace with the compromises they know they will have to make somewhere around thier sophmore year at college. yes, they will probably have to use cars, yes they will have to live in buildings made with wood, yes they will use electricity and do thier work with wasteful and toxic technology...if they choose to stay engaged with society in order to help change it yes. this is a realists approach. will they minimize all this...most likely, as best thay can.  
   
  i suppose greenpeace could eschew all the tools of the modern world and try to communicate the information they have and coordinate thier campaigns  from a computerless shack in the woods in order to meet your peerless standards for acceptable activism, but we all know how well that turned out for the unabomber and all concerned.
   
  this campaign is an unusually refreshing for the effective way it calls attention to the problem of toxic waste from computers in general. targeting the company with the most eco-friendly public image that it doesnt live up to, seems an effective way to accomplish that goal. at least it is done with good-humour and stays focused on the problem, or do you prefer the kaczynski method? 

  xe
  
Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
  

the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as if they do 
they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they want to spin 
things that way any how...
why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
rather then against..
Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who IBM 
helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they are holier 
then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean what powers 
thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take the 
time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it pisses me 
off!!!


On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:

> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
> specific companies then making a POINT
>
> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>
> and now Apple?...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>> not talk about
>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>> problem, and work for
>>> enacting national legislation following the
>> progressive European
>>> lead in this area? Targeting a single company
>> seems gratuitous...
>
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>

============================
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www.noisefactoryrecords.com
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"The man from Afghanistan has made some significant changes to the RV."
 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
--Boundary_(ID_dP2fHqK0bNuUohgcX2jF6A)--

From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 18:15:24 2006
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the larger question is does green peace use computers at all as if they do 
they to are part of the problem and not the solution if they want to spin 
things that way any how...
why dont they look at how computers as a whole work for them...
rather then against..
Im sure they use a fine number of IBM products and we all know who IBM 
helped in world war 2... i think rather then talkign like they are holier 
then now they need to look in thier own back yards.. I mean what powers 
thier boats GAS who makes the GAS...
I am a political person but when grassroot organisations dont take the 
time to look in their own back yard before pointing fingers it pisses me 
off!!!


On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Steffan De Turck wrote:

> unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
> specific companies then making a POINT
>
> e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
> Esso etc. etc. etc.
>
> and now Apple?...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
>> not talk about
>>> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
>> problem, and work for
>>> enacting national legislation following the
>> progressive European
>>> lead in this area?  Targeting a single company
>> seems gratuitous...
>
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>

============================
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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 17:54:40 2006
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unfortunately Greenpeace is more about demonizing
specific companies then making a POINT 

e.g. Shell instead of Exxon Mobile, BP, Q8, Texaco,
Esso etc. etc. etc. 

and now Apple?... 






> > It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why
> not talk about 
> > all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the
> problem, and work for 
> > enacting national legislation following the
> progressive European 
> > lead in this area?  Targeting a single company
> seems gratuitous...


Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 17:51:35 2006
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use a few of these cheap ones:
http://www.nextag.com/external-raid/search-html

throw a good multichannel controller (or multiple single channel cards.)
in a linux box.  ether stitch them together w/ lvm or make a raid of
them w/ the controller card if it supports it (interesting benefits w/
that to) or both.

export w/ nfs or smb and there's a good, cheap, dense nas.

happy solstice-oriented holiday of your preference!

On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 16:01 -0600, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
> Hi everyone~
> 
> I'm looking for some advice and opinions regarding Network Attached
> Storage.  I've already filled two external hard drives with various
> audio/visual materials of mine, and am needing to grow.  So far I've looked
> at a few options and the best price I can find is a Buffalo Technology
> 2.0TB TerraStation for about $1000 US.
> 
> My question really is, how many of you rely upon such a device to back up
> your data, and how do you go about shopping for one?
> 
> Thanks for any help, and have a happy holiday season.
> 
> ~Kyle
> 
-- 
Mechanize something idiosyncratic.



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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 01:37:59 2006
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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:37:53 -0500
From: Derek Mason <xxxxx.xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
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How is this considered to be microsound?

Is there something there we can do as a project?

Derek

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Hopkins" <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: Re: [microsound] Greenpeace and apple
> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:15:04 -0700
> 
> 
> > see also:
> >
> > http://www.rebootcanada.ca/index_html.html
> 
> do a google on  "computer recycling" hazardous e-waste
> 
> >> Hi all
> >>
> >> check out the link and take part!
> >> Happy New ear
> >> love  Le chong
> >>
> >> http://www.greenpeace.org/apple/
> 
> It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why not talk about 
> all PC manufacturers, the full scope of the problem, and work for 
> enacting national legislation following the progressive European 
> lead in this area?  Targeting a single company seems gratuitous...
> 
> 
> jh
> 
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>


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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 01:28:22 2006
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>see also:
>
>http://www.rebootcanada.ca/index_html.html

do a google on  "computer recycling" hazardous e-waste

>>Hi all
>>
>>check out the link and take part!
>>Happy New ear
>>love  Le chong
>>
>>http://www.greenpeace.org/apple/

It seems a bit too trendy a campaign for me -- why not talk about all 
PC manufacturers, the full scope of the problem, and work for 
enacting national legislation following the progressive European lead 
in this area?  Targeting a single company seems gratuitous...


jh

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From ???@??? Wed Dec 27 00:03:27 2006
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see also:

http://www.rebootcanada.ca/index_html.html

for more on computers and recycling.


On 26-Dec-06, at 6:22 PM, <xxxx-xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxx> <jean- 
xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> Hi all
>
> check out the link and take part!
> Happy New ear
> love  Le chong
>
> http://www.greenpeace.org/apple/
>
>
> http://www.idealrecordings.com
> http://www.seams.nu/
>
>
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From ???@??? Tue Dec 26 23:23:05 2006
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Hi all

check out the link and take part!
Happy New ear 
love  Le chong

http://www.greenpeace.org/apple/


http://www.idealrecordings.com
http://www.seams.nu/


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From ???@??? Sun Dec 24 23:26:16 2006
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I'd avoid the terrastation. Not expandable, and shoddy support.

Look at the Infrant ReadyNAS NV. They are a company that is adding 
features all the time, SATA drive support, expandable RAID, and soon to 
be breaking the 2 Terrabyte limit. So, you can have 4 750gig drives (or 
bigger in the future) in the machine.

Great Mac and PC support as well. I have a 1 Terrabyte one (RAID 5ed, 
its around 650+ gigabytes). Great unit.

Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
> Hi everyone~
>
> I'm looking for some advice and opinions regarding Network Attached
> Storage.  I've already filled two external hard drives with various
> audio/visual materials of mine, and am needing to grow.  So far I've 
> looked
> at a few options and the best price I can find is a Buffalo Technology
> 2.0TB TerraStation for about $1000 US.
>
> My question really is, how many of you rely upon such a device to back up
> your data, and how do you go about shopping for one?
>
> Thanks for any help, and have a happy holiday season.
>
> ~Kyle
>


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From ???@??? Sun Dec 24 22:08:56 2006
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Hi Kyle,
you may also consider building your own NAS starting from a second hand 
or old pc, installing a gigabit card and a raid controller. Give a look 
at FreeNAS: http://www.freenas.org/

ale***


--
http://www.pachinkostudio.com


Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
> Hi everyone~
> 
> I'm looking for some advice and opinions regarding Network Attached
> Storage.  I've already filled two external hard drives with various
> audio/visual materials of mine, and am needing to grow.  So far I've looked
> at a few options and the best price I can find is a Buffalo Technology
> 2.0TB TerraStation for about $1000 US.
> 
> My question really is, how many of you rely upon such a device to back up
> your data, and how do you go about shopping for one?
> 
> Thanks for any help, and have a happy holiday season.
> 
> ~Kyle
> 

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--Boundary_(ID_LWrc0V239u558y29bfXBrw)
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Hi everyone~

I'm looking for some advice and opinions regarding Network Attached
Storage.  I've already filled two external hard drives with various
audio/visual materials of mine, and am needing to grow.  So far I've looked
at a few options and the best price I can find is a Buffalo Technology
2.0TB TerraStation for about $1000 US.

My question really is, how many of you rely upon such a device to back up
your data, and how do you go about shopping for one?

Thanks for any help, and have a happy holiday season.

~Kyle

-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
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From: Quintus Frimschlowder VIII <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] Happenings in New York
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Can anyone point me towards some interesting events going on in New
York between now and the 29th? Obviously there The Stone. If anyone
knows of other cool happenings, tips would be highly appreciated.
Thanks much!


Brendan

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From ???@??? Sun Dec 24 00:28:01 2006
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Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 01:28:41 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Eriksson?= <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life
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Ok, now last link before christmas:
Author Kurt Vonnegut interviewed by host John Hockenberry, live from Second 
Life for the national, weekly public radio program.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2140455044291565033&q=vonnegut&hl=en

or
http://snipurl.com/15p3b

/Björn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Björn Eriksson" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 1:18 AM
Subject: Re: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life


> Well, and how late was I?... looks like Suzanne Vega already performed 
> there at Second Life in september. Link to blog posting and YouTube film 
> of "the event".
> http://digitaldouble.blogspot.com/2006/08/audience-with-suzanne-vega.html
>
> /Björn
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Björn Eriksson" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life
>
>
>> Well, sent this wrong but it could aswell go here too...
>> I think this is rather interesting as Second Life seems to have the 
>> potential to be the forum for future virtual concerts and audio-visual 
>> happenings. I have been visiting Second Life, first I was quiet 
>> disappointed as this also seems to be very much commercial oriented with 
>> the usual adult stuff around, but on another visit there (and thru some 
>> guiding from more experienced Second Life users) I maybe think there can 
>> be some useful and interesting things to do there.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Björn Eriksson
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Björn Eriksson" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
>> To: "Björn Eriksson" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life
>>
>>
>>> Robbie Dingo is should spell... and here is his blog:
>>> http://digitaldouble.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>> Seems to be music and sound oriented second lifer.
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>> Björn
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "emanuele de raymondi" <xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
>>>> To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 7:32 PM
>>>> Subject: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I thought this was pretty interesting...any comments?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.slatenight.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=61&Itemid=40
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>
>
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> 


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From ???@??? Sun Dec 24 00:27:04 2006
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 FILETIME=[3574D9E0:01C726F2]

something interesting about music and second life:
http://www.myfirstsecondlife.com/articles/music-in-sl-it.html


Björn Eriksson ha scritto:
> Well, and how late was I?... looks like Suzanne Vega already performed 
> there at Second Life in september. Link to blog posting and YouTube 
> film of "the event".
> http://digitaldouble.blogspot.com/2006/08/audience-with-suzanne-vega.html
>
> /Björn
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Björn Eriksson" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life
>
>
>> Well, sent this wrong but it could aswell go here too...
>> I think this is rather interesting as Second Life seems to have the 
>> potential to be the forum for future virtual concerts and 
>> audio-visual happenings. I have been visiting Second Life, first I 
>> was quiet disappointed as this also seems to be very much commercial 
>> oriented with the usual adult stuff around, but on another visit 
>> there (and thru some guiding from more experienced Second Life users) 
>> I maybe think there can be some useful and interesting things to do 
>> there.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Björn Eriksson
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Björn Eriksson" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
>> To: "Björn Eriksson" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life
>>
>>
>>> Robbie Dingo is should spell... and here is his blog:
>>> http://digitaldouble.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>> Seems to be music and sound oriented second lifer.
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>> Björn
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "emanuele de raymondi" 
>>>> <xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
>>>> To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 7:32 PM
>>>> Subject: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I thought this was pretty interesting...any comments?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.slatenight.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=61&Itemid=40 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>
>
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>
>
>


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From ???@??? Sun Dec 24 00:18:05 2006
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Eriksson?= <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life
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Well, and how late was I?... looks like Suzanne Vega already performed there 
at Second Life in september. Link to blog posting and YouTube film of "the 
event".
http://digitaldouble.blogspot.com/2006/08/audience-with-suzanne-vega.html

/Björn


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Björn Eriksson" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life


> Well, sent this wrong but it could aswell go here too...
> I think this is rather interesting as Second Life seems to have the 
> potential to be the forum for future virtual concerts and audio-visual 
> happenings. I have been visiting Second Life, first I was quiet 
> disappointed as this also seems to be very much commercial oriented with 
> the usual adult stuff around, but on another visit there (and thru some 
> guiding from more experienced Second Life users) I maybe think there can 
> be some useful and interesting things to do there.
>
> Yours,
> Björn Eriksson
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Björn Eriksson" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> To: "Björn Eriksson" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life
>
>
>> Robbie Dingo is should spell... and here is his blog:
>> http://digitaldouble.blogspot.com/
>>
>> Seems to be music and sound oriented second lifer.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Björn
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "emanuele de raymondi" <xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
>>> To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 7:32 PM
>>> Subject: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life
>>>
>>>
>>>>I thought this was pretty interesting...any comments?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.slatenight.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=61&Itemid=40
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
> 


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From ???@??? Sat Dec 23 23:58:49 2006
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Eriksson?= <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life
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Well, sent this wrong but it could aswell go here too...
I think this is rather interesting as Second Life seems to have the 
potential to be the forum for future virtual concerts and audio-visual 
happenings. I have been visiting Second Life, first I was quiet disappointed 
as this also seems to be very much commercial oriented with the usual adult 
stuff around, but on another visit there (and thru some guiding from more 
experienced Second Life users) I maybe think there can be some useful and 
interesting things to do there.

Yours,
Björn Eriksson

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Björn Eriksson" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
To: "Björn Eriksson" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life


> Robbie Dingo is should spell... and here is his blog:
> http://digitaldouble.blogspot.com/
>
> Seems to be music and sound oriented second lifer.
>
> Yours,
> Björn
>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "emanuele de raymondi" <xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
>> To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 7:32 PM
>> Subject: [microsound] Sound Installation in Second Life
>>
>>
>>>I thought this was pretty interesting...any comments?
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.slatenight.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=61&Itemid=40
>>>
>>
> 


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From ???@??? Sat Dec 23 22:49:42 2006
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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 14:48:00 -0800
From: JC <xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] The Manipulation of Chromatic Alien Dancers - An
 Interactive Flash Sound Installation
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The trail begins by clicking on the link below:

http://www.deconstructionist.com/chromatic.htm

(Give the page some time to load as there are several small flash objects in it.)

Sound and graphics by Kyron and Etanna
Programming by Kyron

Feel free to forward the link to anyone that you think might enjoy it.

JC Mendizabal
Black Note Music
-- Energized Sound Creations --
http://www.blacknotemusic.com
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From ???@??? Sat Dec 23 18:32:13 2006
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I thought this was pretty interesting...any comments?


http://www.slatenight.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=61&Itemid=40
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From ???@??? Sat Dec 23 17:24:05 2006
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hola Hector,

i´ve made some recordings using 24 bits /96 khz with apparently no  
slutterly problems, at least in 5 minutes recording.

Using in 24bits/96 khz with Rode Nt4 and phantom ( with no external  
pre-amp ), i can listen a small beep produced by phantom.

I upload a sample with H4 48v phantom power and high inputs and  
another one using NT 4 battery ( no phantom ).

http://www.sergivalverde.net/MicPhantom.wav
http://www.sergivalverde.net/MicPlugin.wav

Else, I upload a sample of my test with phantom power. It´s a slow  
water trickle, that requires the record level inputs at high level  
( 127 ).  In the middle of the recording water stops and you can  
listen the same beep than MicPhantom.wav.    but i can´t listen when  
sound is recorded.


http://www.sergivalverde.net/STE-001.wav


please compare yourself.

saludos

sergi



El 23/12/2006, a las 6:38, Hector Centeno escribió:

> Sergi(o?),
>
> I read in some reviews that using the phantom power and setting the
> record level to very high (in a quiet room) you can hear a constant
> beeping. I even remember finding an audio file someone posted with it.
> Do you get something like this? I'm planning to buy an affordable
> portable recorded and I'm still debating between this one or the
> Microtrack.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Saludos,
>
>
> Hector
>
>
> On 12/22/06, Sergi Valverde <x@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>> i buought one last week from Soundprofessionals with a
>> Soundprofessional SP-8 mic Preamp.
>>
>> The Built-In Mics are acceptable ( at least for me ) , but much
>> better with my Rode nt4 and an external Preamp.
>>
>> I dont´ test it in 24 bits mode yet but, this weekend i will ....
>>
>> saludos
>>
>> s
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> but i´don´t test it in 24 bits mode yet.
>> El 22/12/2006, a las 2:38, Aaron Ximm escribió:
>>
>> >> it compares and contrasts all the newest units... i also think  
>> korg
>> >> is coming out w/ a new one soon too...
>> >
>> > Korg is coming out with two DSD-based recorders, which have looked
>> > nice at
>> > shows but as yet are untested.
>> >
>> >   xxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx
>> >   quietamerican.org
>> >
>> >   |  quod omne animal post   |
>> >   |  cogitum est triste...   |
>> >
>> >
>> >  
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> > website: http://www.microsound.org
>> >
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ???@??? Sat Dec 23 16:37:35 2006
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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 10:36:43 -0600
From: Rob Danielson <xxxx@xxx.xxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Zoom H4 - Handy Recorder
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I got the beep when recording at 44.1/16 and 
48K/24 -- not at 24/96. One should be able to 
discern some other performance factors in the 
below A/B test with a Sound Devices 722 and an 
Art/Hi-MD Combo all using the same very low noise 
mics:

http://www.uwm.edu/~type/audio-art-tech-gallery/mediafiles/H4_744_NH700_Compare_Sm.mov
8.1 mb QuickTime movie test. Use VLC if you don't have a QT 5 plug or later.

Note that the test was aimed at high gain 
applications like recording ambience in quieter 
locations.  I have a test comparing the H4's 
built-in mics to electret mics commonly used ith 
PIP mic input of HiMD recorder in the works. In 
my first run through the material, the H4 had the 
most noise. Rob D.

At 12:38 AM -0500 12/23/06, Hector Centeno wrote:
>Sergi(o?),
>
>I read in some reviews that using the phantom power and setting the
>record level to very high (in a quiet room) you can hear a constant
>beeping. I even remember finding an audio file someone posted with it.
>Do you get something like this? I'm planning to buy an affordable
>portable recorded and I'm still debating between this one or the
>Microtrack.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Saludos,
>
>
>Hector
>
>
>On 12/22/06, Sergi Valverde <x@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>i buought one last week from Soundprofessionals with a
>>Soundprofessional SP-8 mic Preamp.
>>
>>The Built-In Mics are acceptable ( at least for me ) , but much
>>better with my Rode nt4 and an external Preamp.
>>
>>I dont´ test it in 24 bits mode yet but, this weekend i will ....
>>
>>saludos
>>
>>s
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>but i´don´t test it in 24 bits mode yet.
>>El 22/12/2006, a las 2:38, Aaron Ximm escribió:
>>
>>>>  it compares and contrasts all the newest units... i also think korg
>>>>  is coming out w/ a new one soon too...
>>>
>>>  Korg is coming out with two DSD-based recorders, which have looked
>>>  nice at
>>>  shows but as yet are untested.
>>>
>>>    xxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx
>>>    quietamerican.org
>>>
>>>    |  quod omne animal post   |
>>>    |  cogitum est triste...   |
>>>
>>>
>>>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>  For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>  website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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-- 
Rob Danielson
Peck School of the Arts
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
http://www.uwm.edu/~type/audio-art-tech-gallery/
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From ???@??? Sat Dec 23 07:29:53 2006
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On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:26:48 -0500, a Bad Day on the Midway, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:

> Albums released this year, or albums discovered/purchased/acquired this 
> year by list members?
> 
> I have stumbled upon a lot of older releases this year that i have 
> flipped on, The Southern Lord label comes to mind.

I chose albums released this year also because there would be too much
records on the line. Obviously some of the best records i have acquired
this year were not released this year. It's the problem of all lists.
-- 
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From ???@??? Sat Dec 23 05:38:43 2006
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Sergi(o?),

I read in some reviews that using the phantom power and setting the
record level to very high (in a quiet room) you can hear a constant
beeping. I even remember finding an audio file someone posted with it.
Do you get something like this? I'm planning to buy an affordable
portable recorded and I'm still debating between this one or the
Microtrack.

Thanks!

Saludos,


Hector


On 12/22/06, Sergi Valverde <x@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> i buought one last week from Soundprofessionals with a
> Soundprofessional SP-8 mic Preamp.
>
> The Built-In Mics are acceptable ( at least for me ) , but much
> better with my Rode nt4 and an external Preamp.
>
> I dont´ test it in 24 bits mode yet but, this weekend i will ....
>
> saludos
>
> s
>
>
>
>
> but i´don´t test it in 24 bits mode yet.
> El 22/12/2006, a las 2:38, Aaron Ximm escribió:
>
> >> it compares and contrasts all the newest units... i also think korg
> >> is coming out w/ a new one soon too...
> >
> > Korg is coming out with two DSD-based recorders, which have looked
> > nice at
> > shows but as yet are untested.
> >
> >   xxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx
> >   quietamerican.org
> >
> >   |  quod omne animal post   |
> >   |  cogitum est triste...   |
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>
>

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Subject: Re: [microsound] Zoom H4 - Handy Recorder
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i buought one last week from Soundprofessionals with a  
Soundprofessional SP-8 mic Preamp.

The Built-In Mics are acceptable ( at least for me ) , but much  
better with my Rode nt4 and an external Preamp.

I dont´ test it in 24 bits mode yet but, this weekend i will ....

saludos

s




but i´don´t test it in 24 bits mode yet.
El 22/12/2006, a las 2:38, Aaron Ximm escribió:

>> it compares and contrasts all the newest units... i also think korg
>> is coming out w/ a new one soon too...
>
> Korg is coming out with two DSD-based recorders, which have looked  
> nice at
> shows but as yet are untested.
>
>   xxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx
>   quietamerican.org
>
>   |  quod omne animal post   |
>   |  cogitum est triste...   |
>
>
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Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:54:33 -0500
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Subject: Re: [microsound] an interesting monolake answer
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>
> "RH:  Visual representation of sound is evil."




How typically German, the hopeless dualism...

;-)
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From ???@??? Fri Dec 22 12:13:11 2006
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Yeah I have asked him some questions through mail and he showed himself
very concerned. Plus, he downloaded my software and liked it. I'm looking
for the possibility of inviting him to my country to give a master class.


> I wouldn't call myself a friend but I did have the opportunity to spend
> some time with him when he was in Sydney earlier this year. I found his
> humour, enthusiam and singular commitment to his projects and his
> aesthetic very inspiring.
>
>> Everybody is friend of Rob Henke?? He must be very achievable!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> yep it is a good thread. If you've ever spent some time speaking with
>>> Robert Henke you might imagine him saying this with a somewhat
>>> mischievious grin on his face. I suspect he is using the word evil here
>>> in
>>> a less than totally didactic manner. I think he is simply saying don't
>>> use
>>> your eyes in spite of your ears when producing music.
>>>
>>> Robert Henke is not afraid of the image.
>>>
>>> PS Ableton Live has a brilliant interface. I find it a transformative
>>> environment. This is one of the reason's for it's success.
>>>
>>>> Nice thread, thus Robert's provocative statement must be respected.
>>>>
>>>>> Visual representation of sound is evil.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps aural representation of sound is *live* ? Only Miles could
>>>> tell
>>>> us
>>>> for sure.
>>>>
>>>> A defining distinction between BR (before recording) music and PR
>>>> (post
>>>> recording) music is that the former requires a visual representation
>>>> for
>>>> propagation, the latter does not. How much do we still need a visual
>>>> representation to concretize the musical conceptions we conjure in our
>>>> minds
>>>> (for those of us who still consider ourselves composers)? I want to
>>>> argue,
>>>> really not much at all anymore. In this regard there is an important
>>>> distinction between visual representation and abstraction. The latter
>>>> is
>>>> inevitable in music conception since any musical conception I know of,
>>>> whether a tonal fugue or the decision to listen intently to the sounds
>>>> outside your dwelling, involves abstraction; if nothing else, then by
>>>> virtue
>>>> of attention to the processes of auditory cognition. Abstraction is
>>>> indispensible but visual representation is not. The musical conception
>>>> of
>>>> a
>>>> piece that is implemented with Live can precede the software in a way
>>>> that
>>>> an 18th century piano sonata conception could not precede the
>>>> limitations
>>>> and affordances of european music notation. (Did Mozart ever complain
>>>> about
>>>> not being able to write 1/4 tones the way folks here are complaining
>>>> about
>>>> Live's loop-bias doing their heads in?)
>>>>
>>>> As a side note, I nominate the optional nature of PR music's visual
>>>> representation as a key reason why the wackiest looking music scores
>>>> show
>>>> up
>>>> in the 20th century. Once freed from necessity, some people get looser
>>>> with
>>>> the tool, or start twirling it around over their heads.
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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From ???@??? Fri Dec 22 01:38:33 2006
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Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:38:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Aaron Ximm <xxxxx@xxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Zoom H4 - Handy Recorder
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> it compares and contrasts all the newest units... i also think korg
> is coming out w/ a new one soon too...

Korg is coming out with two DSD-based recorders, which have looked nice at
shows but as yet are untested.

  xxxxx.xxxx@xxxxx.xxx
  quietamerican.org

  |  quod omne animal post   |
  |  cogitum est triste...   |


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From ???@??? Fri Dec 22 01:03:50 2006
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Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:03:35 -0500
From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Zoom H4 - Handy Recorder
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check out this site... dug up from an old microsound thread i still  
have:

http://soundtransit.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2

it compares and contrasts all the newest units... i also think korg  
is coming out w/ a new one soon too...

g.


On 21-Dec-06, at 7:24 PM, Xdugef wrote:

> Hmm.. I seem to remember reading some bad reviews of this one..
> something about it recording 24bit audio as if it could not keep up  
> and
> being stuttery.
>
>
> --- colin <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx> wrote:
>
>> i'm a bit wary of zoom products, but i already had a
>> dream last week where i was using one of these:
>>
>> http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1901
>>
>> Mobile Field Recording
>> Fits in the palm of your hand
>> Ideal for infinite variety of mobile recording
>> applications
>> Records 24-bit/96 kHz digital audio as well as MP3
>> format with bitrates up to 320kbps
>> Two studio quality X/Y pattern condenser microphones
>> for true stereo recording
>> Two combination XLR-1/4-inch input jacks with phantom
>> power
>> Onboard studio effects compression, limiting and mic
>> modeling
>> 1/8-inch headphone jack provided for monitoring
>> 128MB Secure Digital (SD) card included.
>> Using a 2GB SD memory card provides 380 minutes of
>> recording with CD Quality sound
>> Up to 34 hours recording in MP3 stereo mode
>> USB mass-storage interface
>> Four hours of continuous recording operation from 2 AA
>> batteries
>> Back-lit, 128×64 pixel LCD provides the visual
>> interface
>> AC adapter, windshield cover, USB Cable and tripod
>> adapter included
>>
>> 4-Track Recording
>> 4-track audio in CD quality 16-bit PCM, 44.1 kHz
>> sampling
>> Combination high-impedance phone inputs for vocals,
>> guitars, bass or keyboards.
>> Built in guitar amp modeling equivalent to the Zoom G2
>>
>> Audio Interface
>> Records directly to your computer as a USB audio
>> interface
>> Bundled with Cubase LE, 48-Track Digital Audio
>> Workstation software
>>
>>
>> -
>> http://freewebs.com/brokensleep
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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From ???@??? Fri Dec 22 00:25:01 2006
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Hmm.. I seem to remember reading some bad reviews of this one..
something about it recording 24bit audio as if it could not keep up and
being stuttery.


--- colin <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx> wrote:

> i'm a bit wary of zoom products, but i already had a
> dream last week where i was using one of these:
> 
> http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1901
> 
> Mobile Field Recording
> Fits in the palm of your hand
> Ideal for infinite variety of mobile recording
> applications
> Records 24-bit/96 kHz digital audio as well as MP3
> format with bitrates up to 320kbps
> Two studio quality X/Y pattern condenser microphones
> for true stereo recording
> Two combination XLR-1/4-inch input jacks with phantom
> power
> Onboard studio effects compression, limiting and mic
> modeling
> 1/8-inch headphone jack provided for monitoring
> 128MB Secure Digital (SD) card included.
> Using a 2GB SD memory card provides 380 minutes of
> recording with CD Quality sound
> Up to 34 hours recording in MP3 stereo mode
> USB mass-storage interface
> Four hours of continuous recording operation from 2 AA
> batteries
> Back-lit, 128×64 pixel LCD provides the visual
> interface
> AC adapter, windshield cover, USB Cable and tripod
> adapter included
> 
> 4-Track Recording
> 4-track audio in CD quality 16-bit PCM, 44.1 kHz
> sampling
> Combination high-impedance phone inputs for vocals,
> guitars, bass or keyboards.
> Built in guitar amp modeling equivalent to the Zoom G2
> 
> Audio Interface
> Records directly to your computer as a USB audio
> interface
> Bundled with Cubase LE, 48-Track Digital Audio
> Workstation software
> 
> 
> -
> http://freewebs.com/brokensleep
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
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> 
> 


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From ???@??? Thu Dec 21 23:07:47 2006
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Subject: [microsound] Zoom H4 - Handy Recorder
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i'm a bit wary of zoom products, but i already had a
dream last week where i was using one of these:

http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1901

Mobile Field Recording
Fits in the palm of your hand
Ideal for infinite variety of mobile recording
applications
Records 24-bit/96 kHz digital audio as well as MP3
format with bitrates up to 320kbps
Two studio quality X/Y pattern condenser microphones
for true stereo recording
Two combination XLR-1/4-inch input jacks with phantom
power
Onboard studio effects compression, limiting and mic
modeling
1/8-inch headphone jack provided for monitoring
128MB Secure Digital (SD) card included.
Using a 2GB SD memory card provides 380 minutes of
recording with CD Quality sound
Up to 34 hours recording in MP3 stereo mode
USB mass-storage interface
Four hours of continuous recording operation from 2 AA
batteries
Back-lit, 128×64 pixel LCD provides the visual
interface
AC adapter, windshield cover, USB Cable and tripod
adapter included

4-Track Recording
4-track audio in CD quality 16-bit PCM, 44.1 kHz
sampling
Combination high-impedance phone inputs for vocals,
guitars, bass or keyboards.
Built in guitar amp modeling equivalent to the Zoom G2

Audio Interface
Records directly to your computer as a USB audio
interface
Bundled with Cubase LE, 48-Track Digital Audio
Workstation software


-
http://freewebs.com/brokensleep

__________________________________________________
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From ???@??? Thu Dec 21 22:43:05 2006
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I wouldn't call myself a friend but I did have the opportunity to spend
some time with him when he was in Sydney earlier this year. I found his
humour, enthusiam and singular commitment to his projects and his
aesthetic very inspiring.

> Everybody is friend of Rob Henke?? He must be very achievable!
>
>
>
>
>> yep it is a good thread. If you've ever spent some time speaking with
>> Robert Henke you might imagine him saying this with a somewhat
>> mischievious grin on his face. I suspect he is using the word evil here
>> in
>> a less than totally didactic manner. I think he is simply saying don't
>> use
>> your eyes in spite of your ears when producing music.
>>
>> Robert Henke is not afraid of the image.
>>
>> PS Ableton Live has a brilliant interface. I find it a transformative
>> environment. This is one of the reason's for it's success.
>>
>>> Nice thread, thus Robert's provocative statement must be respected.
>>>
>>>> Visual representation of sound is evil.
>>>
>>> Perhaps aural representation of sound is *live* ? Only Miles could tell
>>> us
>>> for sure.
>>>
>>> A defining distinction between BR (before recording) music and PR (post
>>> recording) music is that the former requires a visual representation
>>> for
>>> propagation, the latter does not. How much do we still need a visual
>>> representation to concretize the musical conceptions we conjure in our
>>> minds
>>> (for those of us who still consider ourselves composers)? I want to
>>> argue,
>>> really not much at all anymore. In this regard there is an important
>>> distinction between visual representation and abstraction. The latter
>>> is
>>> inevitable in music conception since any musical conception I know of,
>>> whether a tonal fugue or the decision to listen intently to the sounds
>>> outside your dwelling, involves abstraction; if nothing else, then by
>>> virtue
>>> of attention to the processes of auditory cognition. Abstraction is
>>> indispensible but visual representation is not. The musical conception
>>> of
>>> a
>>> piece that is implemented with Live can precede the software in a way
>>> that
>>> an 18th century piano sonata conception could not precede the
>>> limitations
>>> and affordances of european music notation. (Did Mozart ever complain
>>> about
>>> not being able to write 1/4 tones the way folks here are complaining
>>> about
>>> Live's loop-bias doing their heads in?)
>>>
>>> As a side note, I nominate the optional nature of PR music's visual
>>> representation as a key reason why the wackiest looking music scores
>>> show
>>> up
>>> in the 20th century. Once freed from necessity, some people get looser
>>> with
>>> the tool, or start twirling it around over their heads.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
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From ???@??? Thu Dec 21 18:49:14 2006
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From: Frank Barknecht <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
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Hallo,
Eric Lyon hat gesagt: // Eric Lyon wrote:

> Nice thread, thus Robert's provocative statement must be respected.
> 
> >Visual representation of sound is evil.
> 
> Perhaps aural representation of sound is *live* ? Only Miles could tell us
> for sure.
> 
> A defining distinction between BR (before recording) music and PR (post
> recording) music is that the former requires a visual representation for
> propagation, the latter does not. How much do we still need a visual
> representation to concretize the musical conceptions we conjure in our minds
> (for those of us who still consider ourselves composers)? I want to argue,
> really not much at all anymore. In this regard there is an important
> distinction between visual representation and abstraction. The latter is
> inevitable in music conception since any musical conception I know of,
> whether a tonal fugue or the decision to listen intently to the sounds
> outside your dwelling, involves abstraction; if nothing else, then by virtue
> of attention to the processes of auditory cognition. Abstraction is
> indispensible but visual representation is not. 

But let me add that both abstraction and visual representation can
show up together. You and me, we both are Max rsp. Pd users, and
Robert Henke is a Max user, too. I consider these programs to be
visual representations of music or sound processes and thus maybe even
of music and sound itself (though this is debatable). They aren't the
one-(or actually two-)dimensional view of sound as a wave form , which
indeed I do consider very limited and even dangerous (or evil), but
they are clearly a visual representation of abstracted sound, or of
sound symbols. It's no coincidence that higher-level modules in Max/Pd
are called just that: abstractions. Abstractions are tools for the
mind, and to some people, visualising abstractions is a big help for
thinking. So in this regard, visual representation of sound is not
evil at all IMO.

Btw.: I can code in a text language as well, but when trying to think
about certain sounds and music, I always find myself coming back to
the abstract, but visual approach of Pd. It just works better for me;
though I know and respect, that it doesn't work for other people at
all (like those in the SuperCollider community).

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht                 _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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From: Eric Lyon <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] Re: an interesting monolake answer
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>
> I realized what bothered me about this whole line of argument: It's
> the assumption that the visual and audio are opposed. In reality, in a
> good musician the two things are complementary.


Does this mean blind musicians can't be good?

Some of the lines of
> argument people take seem to create a false dualism, where I don't
> think there's any real opposition.


I'm not claiming they're opposed, I'm reporting that in my experience they
are different, and not necessarily cross-reliant. Obviously the two modes
can be complementary. Anyone experienced with european music notation or
computer software GUIs is heavily conditioned by systems that completely
fuse auditory and visual cognitive modes, creating synergies that would be
difficult to achieve relying on a single mode. But some people can also hear
and create music without seeing visuals, myself included.


Eric
--Boundary_(ID_CDfAgXhB0bdYR3vzlZbD3g)--

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Beauty:
http://www.uva.co.uk/index.php/archives/49



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I've never talked to him, but he looks to be pretty accessible in his video
tutorials.  I'm sure he's a downright likeable and approachable guy if you
meet him in person.  Seems a lot more cheerful and upbeat than his latest
dark, brooding tunes (which sound amazing, by the way).

~Kyle


On 12/21/06, Cooptrol <xxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> Everybody is friend of Rob Henke?? He must be very achievable!
>
>
>
>
> > yep it is a good thread. If you've ever spent some time speaking with
> > Robert Henke you might imagine him saying this with a somewhat
> > mischievious grin on his face. I suspect he is using the word evil here
> in
> > a less than totally didactic manner. I think he is simply saying don't
> use
> > your eyes in spite of your ears when producing music.
> >
> > Robert Henke is not afraid of the image.
> >
> > PS Ableton Live has a brilliant interface. I find it a transformative
> > environment. This is one of the reason's for it's success.
> >
> >> Nice thread, thus Robert's provocative statement must be respected.
> >>
> >>> Visual representation of sound is evil.
> >>
> >> Perhaps aural representation of sound is *live* ? Only Miles could tell
> >> us
> >> for sure.
> >>
> >> A defining distinction between BR (before recording) music and PR (post
> >> recording) music is that the former requires a visual representation
> for
> >> propagation, the latter does not. How much do we still need a visual
> >> representation to concretize the musical conceptions we conjure in our
> >> minds
> >> (for those of us who still consider ourselves composers)? I want to
> >> argue,
> >> really not much at all anymore. In this regard there is an important
> >> distinction between visual representation and abstraction. The latter
> is
> >> inevitable in music conception since any musical conception I know of,
> >> whether a tonal fugue or the decision to listen intently to the sounds
> >> outside your dwelling, involves abstraction; if nothing else, then by
> >> virtue
> >> of attention to the processes of auditory cognition. Abstraction is
> >> indispensible but visual representation is not. The musical conception
> >> of
> >> a
> >> piece that is implemented with Live can precede the software in a way
> >> that
> >> an 18th century piano sonata conception could not precede the
> >> limitations
> >> and affordances of european music notation. (Did Mozart ever complain
> >> about
> >> not being able to write 1/4 tones the way folks here are complaining
> >> about
> >> Live's loop-bias doing their heads in?)
> >>
> >> As a side note, I nominate the optional nature of PR music's visual
> >> representation as a key reason why the wackiest looking music scores
> >> show
> >> up
> >> in the 20th century. Once freed from necessity, some people get looser
> >> with
> >> the tool, or start twirling it around over their heads.
> >>
> >> Eric
> >>
> >
> >
> >
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-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
(())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
_____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
--Boundary_(ID_Vn9Bbg/6fcW6PvrZxna5YA)--

From ???@??? Thu Dec 21 15:49:34 2006
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Everybody is friend of Rob Henke?? He must be very achievable!




> yep it is a good thread. If you've ever spent some time speaking with
> Robert Henke you might imagine him saying this with a somewhat
> mischievious grin on his face. I suspect he is using the word evil here in
> a less than totally didactic manner. I think he is simply saying don't use
> your eyes in spite of your ears when producing music.
>
> Robert Henke is not afraid of the image.
>
> PS Ableton Live has a brilliant interface. I find it a transformative
> environment. This is one of the reason's for it's success.
>
>> Nice thread, thus Robert's provocative statement must be respected.
>>
>>> Visual representation of sound is evil.
>>
>> Perhaps aural representation of sound is *live* ? Only Miles could tell
>> us
>> for sure.
>>
>> A defining distinction between BR (before recording) music and PR (post
>> recording) music is that the former requires a visual representation for
>> propagation, the latter does not. How much do we still need a visual
>> representation to concretize the musical conceptions we conjure in our
>> minds
>> (for those of us who still consider ourselves composers)? I want to
>> argue,
>> really not much at all anymore. In this regard there is an important
>> distinction between visual representation and abstraction. The latter is
>> inevitable in music conception since any musical conception I know of,
>> whether a tonal fugue or the decision to listen intently to the sounds
>> outside your dwelling, involves abstraction; if nothing else, then by
>> virtue
>> of attention to the processes of auditory cognition. Abstraction is
>> indispensible but visual representation is not. The musical conception
>> of
>> a
>> piece that is implemented with Live can precede the software in a way
>> that
>> an 18th century piano sonata conception could not precede the
>> limitations
>> and affordances of european music notation. (Did Mozart ever complain
>> about
>> not being able to write 1/4 tones the way folks here are complaining
>> about
>> Live's loop-bias doing their heads in?)
>>
>> As a side note, I nominate the optional nature of PR music's visual
>> representation as a key reason why the wackiest looking music scores
>> show
>> up
>> in the 20th century. Once freed from necessity, some people get looser
>> with
>> the tool, or start twirling it around over their heads.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>



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From ???@??? Thu Dec 21 07:01:35 2006
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Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:01:20 +1300
From: Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] electroacoustic masterpiece
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play this with the screen turned off:

http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/transformers/

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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        time
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$Dear Readers,
Hope you are prepairing to enjoy a nice x-mas time

In 2006 many things took place @ our BiP_HOp HQ and to end the year  
nicely 2 of our records got nominated to the Qwartz Awards:

Same Actor
BiP_HOp Generation v.8

Feel free to follow the links and vote for us, or any other one your  
ears dictate you to, but in any case please express yourself and  
support that nice initiative

http://www.qwartz.org/joomla/index.php? 
option=com_content&task=view&id=38&prix=Compilation

http://www.qwartz.org/joomla/index.php? 
option=com_content&task=view&id=38&prix=Track



In hope to share our passions allow my pointing out 50 records we  
have played repeatedly throughout the year (in no particular order,  
mind you), obviously avoiding favouritism and not placing any BiP_HOp  
in the list...

Believe me it has been tough to select only 50 out of 500 + which I  
got in 2006... So feel assured that those brought a large pleasure to  
my ears, kept growing on me with every listen and sometimes called me  
in the middle of the night... Special thumbs up to our friends from  
Glasgow who penned "Friend Of The Night" the most delicious and  
addictive lullaby, ex-aequo with that torrid cover of Pixies' "break  
my body" coming from a cold coutry but warming your hands so nicely...

Let's stop digressing and enjoy the music :


Barry Adamson : stranger on the sofa (Central Control International)
Foetus : love (Birdman)
Enablers : output negative space (Neurot)
Many Fingers : our worn shadow (Acuarela)
Hanne Hukkelberg : break my body (Leaf)
Scanner : messe : klang der macht (KünstRäume)
The Timeout Drawer : nowonmai ((Consumer Research & Development Label)
Modern Institute : excellent swimmer (Expanding)
Flanger : spirituals (Nonplace)
Tu M' : fragile touch of the coincidence (Headz)
Grails : black tar prophecies (Important)
Phelan Sheppard : harps old master (Leaf)
Psapp : the only thing i ever wanted (Domino)
Biosphere : dropsonde (Touch)
Akira Ifukube : king kong vs. godzilla (Lalaland)
Daedelus : denies the day's demise (Ninja tune)
Mécanosphère : limb shop (Raging Planet)
Mogwaï : mr beast (PIAS)
Ateleia : formal sleep (Xeric/Table Of The Elements)
Pierre-Yves Macé & Quatuor Pli : crash test 2 (Orkhestra)
Isis : in the absence of truth (Ipecac)
Avia Gardner : mill farm (Intr:Version)
Red Sparowes : every red heart shines toward the read (Neurot)
Picore : l'hélium du peuple (Jarring Effects)
Frequency : s/t (Thrill Jockey)
Boxhead Ensemble : nocturnes (Atavistic)
Motohiro Nakashima : I dreamt of constellations sang (Loaf)
Animal Collective : feels (Fat Cat)
Mandelbrot Set : all our actions are constantly repeated (Highpoint  
Lowlife)
Felix Kubin : atoma exi mono (Solnze)
Gang Gang Dance : god's money (The Social Registry)
Rafael Toral : space (Staubgold)
Robert Lippok : robot (Western Vinyl)
Schneider TM : skoda mluvit (City Slang)
Duchess Says : noviciat mere-perruche (Slum)
Tied & Tickled Trio : a. r. c. (Morr Music)
Legendary Pink Dots : your children placate you from premature graves  
(Roir)
World's End Girlfriend : the lie lay land (MIDI Creative / noble)
Pan.American : for waiting, for chasing (Mosz)
Erik Friedlander : prowl (Cryptogramophone)
Bästard : yet, reloaded... (Ici d'Ailleurs)
1 Kilo Of Black Bondage : fear the windows (Wallace)
Aethenor : deep ocean sunk the lamp of light (VHF)
Tunng : comments of the inner chorus (Talitres)
The DFA Remixes chapter 1 (DFA)
Terrestrial Tones : dead drunk (Paw Tracks)
Tape : rideau (Hapna)
ZU : the way of the animal powers (Xeng)
Judith Juillerat : soliloquy (Shitkatapult)
VA. idol tryouts vol.2 (Ghostly international)
  
  
--Mailsmith-B4E3CDB8-AD5D-11DB-9D5B-000D932C0D78
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<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">$<FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Dear Readers,</FONT><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><B>Hope you are prepairing to enjoy a nice x-mas time</B></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">I</FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">n 2006 m</FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">any things took place @ our BiP_HOp HQ and to end the year nicely 2 of our records got </FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><B>nominated to the </B></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><B>Qwartz Awards</B></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">:</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><B>Same Actor</B></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><B>BiP_HOp Generation v.8</B></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Feel free to follow the links and vote for us, or any other one your ears dictate you to, but in any case please express yourself and support that nice initiative</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><A href="http://www.qwartz.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&prix=Compilation">http://www.qwartz.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&prix=Compilation</A></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><A href="http://www.qwartz.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&prix=Track">http://www.qwartz.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&prix=Track</A></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal American Typewriter; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><B>In hope to share our passions allow my pointing out 50 records we have played repeatedly throughout the year</B></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"> (in no particular order, mind you), obviously avoiding favouritism and not placing any BiP_HOp in the list... </FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Believe me it has been tough to select only 50 out of 500 + which I got in 2006... So feel assured that those brought a large pleasure to my ears, kept growing on me with every listen and sometimes called me in the middle of the night... Special thumbs up to our friends from Glasgow who penned "Friend Of The Night" the most delicious and addictive lullaby, ex-aequo with that torrid cover of Pixies' "break my body" coming from a cold coutry but warming your hands so nicely... </FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Let's stop digressing and enjoy the music :</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal American Typewriter; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"><BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal American Typewriter; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Barry Adamson : stranger on the sofa (Central Control International)<BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal American Typewriter; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Foetus : love (Birdman)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal American Typewriter; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Enablers : output negative space (Neurot)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal American Typewriter; min-height: 14px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Many Fingers : our worn shadow (Acuarela)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Hanne Hukkelberg : break my body (Leaf)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Scanner : messe : klang der macht (KünstRäume) </FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">The Timeout Drawer : nowonmai ((Consumer Research & Development Label) </FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Modern Institute : excellent swimmer (Expanding)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Flanger : spirituals (Nonplace)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Tu M' : fragile touch of the coincidence (Headz)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Grails : black tar prophecies (Important)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Phelan Sheppard : harps old master (Leaf)</FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"> </FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Psapp : the only thing i ever wanted (Domino)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Biosphere : dropsonde (Touch)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Akira Ifukube : king kong vs. godzilla (Lalaland)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Daedelus : denies the day's demise (Ninja tune)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Mécanosphère : limb shop (Raging Planet)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Mogwaï : mr beast (PIAS)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Ateleia : formal sleep (Xeric/Table Of The Elements)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Pierre-Yves Macé & Quatuor Pli : crash test 2 (Orkhestra)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Isis : in the absence of truth (Ipecac)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Avia Gardner : mill farm (Intr:Version)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Red Sparowes : every red heart shines toward the read (Neurot)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Picore : l'hélium du peuple (Jarring Effects)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Frequency : s/t (Thrill Jockey)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Boxhead Ensemble : nocturnes (Atavistic)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Motohiro Nakashima : I dreamt of constellations sang (Loaf)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Animal Collective : feels (Fat Cat)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Mandelbrot Set : all our actions are constantly repeated (Highpoint Lowlife)<BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Felix Kubin : </FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">atoma exi mono</FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"> (Solnze)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Gang Gang Dance : god's money (The Social Registry)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Rafael Toral : space (Staubgold)<BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Robert Lippok : robot (Western Vinyl)<BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Schneider TM : skoda mluvit (City Slang)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Duchess Says : noviciat mere-perruche (Slum)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Tied & Tickled Trio : a. r. c. (Morr Music)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Legendary Pink Dots : your children placate you from premature graves (Roir)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">World's End Girlfriend : the lie lay land (MIDI Creative / noble)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Pan.American : for waiting, for chasing (Mosz)<BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Erik Friedlander : prowl (Cryptogramophone)<BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Bästard : yet, reloaded... (Ici d'Ailleurs)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">1 Kilo Of Black Bondage : fear the windows (Wallace)<BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Aethenor : deep ocean sunk the lamp of light (VHF)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Tunng : comments of the inner chorus (Talitres)<BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">The DFA Remixes chapter 1 (DFA)<BR style=""></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Terrestrial Tones : dead drunk (Paw Tracks)</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Tape : rideau (Hapna) </FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">ZU : the way of the animal powers (Xeng) </FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Judith Juillerat : soliloquy (Shitkatapult) </FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">VA. idol tryouts vol.2 (Ghostly international) </FONT></DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">  </FONT></P></BODY></HTML>
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From ???@??? Thu Dec 21 05:58:59 2006
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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:58:49 -0800
From: leo <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] gigs in january, anyone?? reduxx
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cher Javier

> indeed there is some one here who can help you out.

The bible anglais & clearinghouse for
all live  artmusic of the occident is Critic
et Academic David Cotner's <Actions Communique>
which -
while never focused on peculiar tonalities or
their particular abolition -
does list an entirely exhaustive
"new music" calendar at the end of each
missive, "issued weekly and covering actions
for two weeks hence".

Apply to:
xxxxxx@xxxxx-xxxx.xxx
xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx

To quote,
"It's not an easy road"; nor
would I suggest you to hold your breath:
Mr. C's rather busy with critical commitments besides
 collecting, culling and disseminating his arti-facts.
however he also maintians a website
http://www.hertz-lion.com/

listing the other comparable and useful
performance info which comes his way,
such as venues, festivals, et cetera;

but  unfortunately not yet containing his epic calendars...
the most current of which I can
quote at the moment is  2006September 18.
not surprisingly that edition contains but one current [and
conceptually a rather coherent] Euro-'Activity' listed below.

¿Perhaps other correspondents could provide
a current Cotner Communique?

adios a dieu
leo ____________________________________________

from Actions Communique Sept2006: ________________

SEPTEMBER - JANUARY 7, 2007
HE YUN CHANG - "Touring Round Great Britain With a Rock"
"Beijing based artist He Yun Chang is amongst the most important
artists presently working in China, creating unique solo performances
in which he has placed exceptional physical demands upon himself both
in terms of his strength and endurance. These works, mostly performed
in public though occasionally only observed by a camera operator, have
astounded audiences with their simple ambition combined with the
difficulty of their implementation and, ultimately, their apparent
futility. "Touring Round Great Britain With A Rock" is He Yun Chang's
most challenging and ambitious performance to date and it is set to
become a landmark project in the history of durational performance
art. Starting from Rock, in Northumberland, he will walk to the nearby
coast at Boulmer where he will select a rock and set off to carry it
around the island of Great Britain in a counter clockwise direction,
eventually to return the rock to the precise location from where it
was taken. The route is a rough circumnavigation of Great Britain,
rather than following the precise coastline, a distance of over 2000
miles and will take around 110 days. Join He Yun Chang at the start of
his walk: We will be organising a return bus trip from Newcastle to
Rock and on to Boulmer for anyone who would like to join He Yun Chang
as he begins his walk on Sunday 17 September.
Depart: 12N, High Bridge, Newcastle upon Tyne
Return: 5P, from Boulmer to Newcastle
Places on the bus are free but will be limited so please contact us in
advance to reserve a seat: 44 191 261 7262
Walk with He Yun Chang: You are welcome to join He Yun Chang at any
point along the route of his walk and the full itinerary will be
available online at
http://amino.org.uk
You will also be able to keep up to date day by day with his progress
and location through the amino website which will be linked to Google
Earth."
Starting at Rock, Northumberland, ENGLAND
Finishing at Boulmer, Northumberland, ENGLAND
amino [at] amino [dot] org [dot] uk for information
(culled from Amino - thanks!)

SEPTEMBER 28 - DECEMBER 31
BERNARD GAL & Y. KORI - "Infinitation"
SESC
Sao Paolo, BRAZIL
http://www.bernhardgal.com/galkori.html for information
(culled from Bernard Gal - thanks!)
________________________________________________

>: Tue, 19 Dec 2006
><xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx>
>gigs in january, anyone??

>hello!
>altough I didnt get any replies to my first mail,
>I 4m going to try once again:
>could any of you share some data about interesting gigs +
>art/sound instalations + etc, taking place during
>january 2007, in madrid, paris, london and
>/or berlin???
>i'm travelling to these places and I really believe that there
>> must be some one here who can help me out.
>i googled a lot but could not find any decent=
> data.
>thank you! and i hope this isn't bothering you too much!
>Javier

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From ???@??? Thu Dec 21 04:12:04 2006
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Hello all,
I am visiting New York until the 30th, any recomendations for a  
show/concert/presentation/record store/ or any microsoundish people  
around?
I would apreciate any info.

N.
el sonido nace para todos >../
www.discosinvisibles.org
www.electronicamexicana.org



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From ???@??? Wed Dec 20 21:58:51 2006
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yep it is a good thread. If you've ever spent some time speaking with
Robert Henke you might imagine him saying this with a somewhat
mischievious grin on his face. I suspect he is using the word evil here in
a less than totally didactic manner. I think he is simply saying don't use
your eyes in spite of your ears when producing music.

Robert Henke is not afraid of the image.

PS Ableton Live has a brilliant interface. I find it a transformative
environment. This is one of the reason's for it's success.

> Nice thread, thus Robert's provocative statement must be respected.
>
>> Visual representation of sound is evil.
>
> Perhaps aural representation of sound is *live* ? Only Miles could tell us
> for sure.
>
> A defining distinction between BR (before recording) music and PR (post
> recording) music is that the former requires a visual representation for
> propagation, the latter does not. How much do we still need a visual
> representation to concretize the musical conceptions we conjure in our
> minds
> (for those of us who still consider ourselves composers)? I want to argue,
> really not much at all anymore. In this regard there is an important
> distinction between visual representation and abstraction. The latter is
> inevitable in music conception since any musical conception I know of,
> whether a tonal fugue or the decision to listen intently to the sounds
> outside your dwelling, involves abstraction; if nothing else, then by
> virtue
> of attention to the processes of auditory cognition. Abstraction is
> indispensible but visual representation is not. The musical conception of
> a
> piece that is implemented with Live can precede the software in a way that
> an 18th century piano sonata conception could not precede the limitations
> and affordances of european music notation. (Did Mozart ever complain
> about
> not being able to write 1/4 tones the way folks here are complaining about
> Live's loop-bias doing their heads in?)
>
> As a side note, I nominate the optional nature of PR music's visual
> representation as a key reason why the wackiest looking music scores show
> up
> in the 20th century. Once freed from necessity, some people get looser
> with
> the tool, or start twirling it around over their heads.
>
> Eric
>



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Albums released this year, or albums discovered/purchased/acquired this 
year by list members?

I have stumbled upon a lot of older releases this year that i have 
flipped on, The Southern Lord label comes to mind.


aLEKs



On Dec 20, 2006, at 3:17 PM, Adern wrote:

> Ok! Somebody thinks it's a stupid tradition but compiling the list of
> the best 10 albums of the year is _the_ tradition!
> Here's my choice in random order:
>
> Scott Walker - The Drift (4AD)
> Current 93 - Black Ships Ate The Sky (Durtro)
> John Zorn - Astronome (Tzadik)
> Xiu Xiu - The Air Force (5RC)
> William Basinski - Variations for Piano and Tape (2062)
> Rioji Ikeda - Dataplex (Raster-Noton)
> S. Mathieu & J. Schaefer - Hidden Name (Crònica)
> Doulends Vert - Cistern (L-ne)
> eRikm - sixpériodes (sirr)
> Steinbrucker - Stage (L-ne)
>
> As usual, at least for me, too much records out (Olivia Block and Pixel
> above all) but that's life!
> -- 
>  (     mailto: xxxxx@xxxxxx.xx
>  ))    http://digilander.iol.it/adern      (GnuPG key available on url)
> |""|-. fingerprint = CE38 820C F54A 8BBB 114E  ED43 EC64 0180 13B6 55B4
> |__|-' "Sometimes in a fight it's best to just stay down" (A. Innes)
>
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Ok! Somebody thinks it's a stupid tradition but compiling the list of
the best 10 albums of the year is _the_ tradition!
Here's my choice in random order:

Scott Walker - The Drift (4AD)
Current 93 - Black Ships Ate The Sky (Durtro)
John Zorn - Astronome (Tzadik)
Xiu Xiu - The Air Force (5RC)
William Basinski - Variations for Piano and Tape (2062)
Rioji Ikeda - Dataplex (Raster-Noton)
S. Mathieu & J. Schaefer - Hidden Name (Crònica)
Doulends Vert - Cistern (L-ne)
eRikm - sixpériodes (sirr)
Steinbrucker - Stage (L-ne)

As usual, at least for me, too much records out (Olivia Block and Pixel
above all) but that's life!
-- 
 (     mailto: xxxxx@xxxxxx.xx
 ))    http://digilander.iol.it/adern      (GnuPG key available on url)
|""|-. fingerprint = CE38 820C F54A 8BBB 114E  ED43 EC64 0180 13B6 55B4
|__|-' "Sometimes in a fight it's best to just stay down" (A. Innes)

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From ???@??? Wed Dec 20 04:54:43 2006
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Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 23:54:34 -0500
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Subject: Re: [microsound] an interesting monolake answer/ Birchville Cat Motel
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agree,
I find sequencers to be conceptually a bit "conservative",
the whole notion of a timeline moving in digital ticks from left to right...
it encourages certain patterns of musical thinking and production
that are limited. The resulting music sounds often very standardized.

I mean...I use Logic almost every day of my life, but my favorite
software for composition (max/msp, metasynth, argeiphontes, radial,
audiomulch, bidule) all share a certain extent of non-linearity in their
conception that makes them much more stimulating and fun to use.
In this sense, Ableton is a positive exception among commercial software.
But then again...they lock you inside a cage with the quantizing everything
to
a tempo etc...



edr








On 12/19/06, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
>
> emanuele de raymondi wrote:
>
> > In reply to a previous post, I believe that laying out a score for a
> > symphony
> > is extremely different than laying out .WAV or .AIFF files and MIDI
> tracks.
>
> I love to listen to and I love to make music that is made without the
> aid of sequencing devices, or at least with sequencing devices used as
> texture creators, rather than as rigid development-over-time parameters.
>
> The best microsound-y music happens when you set up enough equipment
> that you don't fully understand what's going on, fiddle knobs until it
> sounds awesome, then hit record.
>
> Anyone here ever seen Birchville Cat Motel live?
>
> --
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
>
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed
>
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From ???@??? Wed Dec 20 01:01:24 2006
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uhm... both i'm sure :)  interesting idea tho... make this one a bit
more complicated then just skating, and it's kinda that idea:

http://www.youtube.com/v/1Xa2wVBza98

(via http://playtherecords.com/ )

On Tue, 2006-12-19 at 16:02 -0800, Robert Arnold wrote:
> Might be fun to try to create the audio equivalent of a Rube Goldberg 
> machine - or rather, to translate the basic concept of RG machines 
> into an approach to composition. Does this make any sense at all or 
> am I just dangling from the fringes of reason?
> 
> R.
> 
> 
> >if you're not already familiar, or just want to relive some childhood
> >fun, visit:
> >
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg
> >and
> >http://www.rube-goldberg.com/
> >
> >rube goldberg was pretty much the originator of this kinds of complex
> >machine chains, as well as the creator of the idea behind the game
> >"Mouse Trap" that still rocks to this day.
> 
-- 
Mechanize something idiosyncratic.



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From ???@??? Wed Dec 20 00:04:23 2006
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Might be fun to try to create the audio equivalent of a Rube Goldberg 
machine - or rather, to translate the basic concept of RG machines 
into an approach to composition. Does this make any sense at all or 
am I just dangling from the fringes of reason?

R.


>if you're not already familiar, or just want to relive some childhood
>fun, visit:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg
>and
>http://www.rube-goldberg.com/
>
>rube goldberg was pretty much the originator of this kinds of complex
>machine chains, as well as the creator of the idea behind the game
>"Mouse Trap" that still rocks to this day.

-- 



--
Website: http://www.warbaby.com
(Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
Blog: http://raggedwings.blogspot.com/
Nifty Stuff: http://www.cafepress.com/warbaby
--

"Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would 
permit us to be pirates."

          - Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi


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Xdugef wrote:
> Hmm.. well I can say from experience that including visuals in no way
> insures that people will sense what you sensed as an artist. 
> 
> Personally I'm interested in finding out how people experience it
> differently.

I know what you mean, but it kind of upsets me, so I'm trying to pretend 
that everyone experiences things the same :-)

... I'm friends with a number of live video artists, some of whom work 
closely with particular musicians (I'm thinking of a musician/VJ pair 
called Anaesthesia Associates). Even in those close collaborations, to 
me the video still has little or nothing to do with the sound.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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if you're not already familiar, or just want to relive some childhood
fun, visit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg
and
http://www.rube-goldberg.com/

rube goldberg was pretty much the originator of this kinds of complex
machine chains, as well as the creator of the idea behind the game
"Mouse Trap" that still rocks to this day.

love,
-the other shift8 (not the internationalization hater.  wanky name
stealing bastard)

On Tue, 2006-12-19 at 14:08 +0100, steinbr=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?=chel
wrote:
> nic, me thinks this is fantastic. do you know the "movie" entitled "der lauf
> der dinge" bei the swiss artist duo "fischli/weiss"?
> 
> very similar...
> cheers, ralph.
> 
> Am 19.12.2006 12:02 Uhr schrieb "nicola catalano" unter <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xx>:
> 
> > maybe many of you have already seen this... amazing, crazy zen
> > micro...something, me think!
> > 
> > http://video.google.it/videoplay?docid=3163263343187879320&q=machine
> > 
> > cheers!
> > nic
> > 
> > 
> > +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +
> > +
> > 
> > "talkers do not know, knowers do not talk." lao-tzu
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> > 
> 
-- 
Mechanize something idiosyncratic.



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Subject: Re: [microsound] Re: an interesting monolake answer
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I realized what bothered me about this whole line of argument: It's
the assumption that the visual and audio are opposed. In reality, in a
good musician the two things are complementary. Some of the lines of
argument people take seem to create a false dualism, where I don't
think there's any real opposition.

~David

On 12/19/06, Eric Lyon <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> Nice thread, thus Robert's provocative statement must be respected.
>
> > Visual representation of sound is evil.
>
> Perhaps aural representation of sound is *live* ? Only Miles could tell us
> for sure.
>
> A defining distinction between BR (before recording) music and PR (post
> recording) music is that the former requires a visual representation for
> propagation, the latter does not. How much do we still need a visual
> representation to concretize the musical conceptions we conjure in our minds
> (for those of us who still consider ourselves composers)? I want to argue,
> really not much at all anymore. In this regard there is an important
> distinction between visual representation and abstraction. The latter is
> inevitable in music conception since any musical conception I know of,
> whether a tonal fugue or the decision to listen intently to the sounds
> outside your dwelling, involves abstraction; if nothing else, then by virtue
> of attention to the processes of auditory cognition. Abstraction is
> indispensible but visual representation is not. The musical conception of a
> piece that is implemented with Live can precede the software in a way that
> an 18th century piano sonata conception could not precede the limitations
> and affordances of european music notation. (Did Mozart ever complain about
> not being able to write 1/4 tones the way folks here are complaining about
> Live's loop-bias doing their heads in?)
>
> As a side note, I nominate the optional nature of PR music's visual
> representation as a key reason why the wackiest looking music scores show up
> in the 20th century. Once freed from necessity, some people get looser with
> the tool, or start twirling it around over their heads.
>
> Eric
>
>

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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 21:49:45 2006
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Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:49:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Xdugef <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] an interesting monolake answer
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Hmm.. well I can say from experience that including visuals in no way
insures that people will sense what you sensed as an artist. 

Personally I'm interested in finding out how people experience it
differently.

But I think you can use the visuals to communicate ideas that support
the music that might be difficult to convey with sublety and clarity
with just sounds.

In regards to software interfaces.. there are many and no single one
will work best for all. The tools in this case have influenced or even
made possible new styles and genres of music... especially electronic
music.

I can't agree that visuals in either case are inherently evil.. if so
then more people should be gouging their eyes out in protest. ;-)

AD


--- Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
> We live in a primarily visual culture. Or we believe we do..
> 
> Personally I'm a sound->vision/touch synaesthete and I want other
> people 
> to sense what I sense when I hear things.. that's my interest in
> putting 
> visuals to my music. Not that I've actually done any visuals or
> anything 
> like that yet.


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Subject: Re: [microsound] an interesting monolake answer/ Birchville Cat Motel
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emanuele de raymondi wrote:

> In reply to a previous post, I believe that laying out a score for a
> symphony
> is extremely different than laying out .WAV or .AIFF files and MIDI tracks.

I love to listen to and I love to make music that is made without the 
aid of sequencing devices, or at least with sequencing devices used as 
texture creators, rather than as rigid development-over-time parameters.

The best microsound-y music happens when you set up enough equipment 
that you don't fully understand what's going on, fiddle knobs until it 
sounds awesome, then hit record.

Anyone here ever seen Birchville Cat Motel live?

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 21:25:22 2006
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Xdugef wrote:

> I have no doubt that this no agreement that sound needs visual
> representation.
> 
> Where is the pressure to include visuals coming from? Are electronic
> music programs telling students to include visual now?
> Is the success of youtube making muscians without visuals feel
> humbled??

We live in a primarily visual culture. Or we believe we do..

Personally I'm a sound->vision/touch synaesthete and I want other people 
to sense what I sense when I hear things.. that's my interest in putting 
visuals to my music. Not that I've actually done any visuals or anything 
like that yet.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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Subject: [microsound] Re: an interesting monolake answer
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Nice thread, thus Robert's provocative statement must be respected.

> Visual representation of sound is evil.

Perhaps aural representation of sound is *live* ? Only Miles could tell us
for sure.

A defining distinction between BR (before recording) music and PR (post
recording) music is that the former requires a visual representation for
propagation, the latter does not. How much do we still need a visual
representation to concretize the musical conceptions we conjure in our minds
(for those of us who still consider ourselves composers)? I want to argue,
really not much at all anymore. In this regard there is an important
distinction between visual representation and abstraction. The latter is
inevitable in music conception since any musical conception I know of,
whether a tonal fugue or the decision to listen intently to the sounds
outside your dwelling, involves abstraction; if nothing else, then by virtue
of attention to the processes of auditory cognition. Abstraction is
indispensible but visual representation is not. The musical conception of a
piece that is implemented with Live can precede the software in a way that
an 18th century piano sonata conception could not precede the limitations
and affordances of european music notation. (Did Mozart ever complain about
not being able to write 1/4 tones the way folks here are complaining about
Live's loop-bias doing their heads in?)

As a side note, I nominate the optional nature of PR music's visual
representation as a key reason why the wackiest looking music scores show up
in the 20th century. Once freed from necessity, some people get looser with
the tool, or start twirling it around over their heads.

Eric
--Boundary_(ID_yU/rw462ByjWpHzFgXkPdw)--

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Subject: Re: [microsound] an interesting monolake answer
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 My main issue with the visual representation of sound in Sequencers is
the loss of the vertical dimension.

The concept of layering tracks horizontally one after the other has, in my
opinion,
greatly narrowed the creative thinking in assembling musical sounds.

This is reflected in most of the mainstream music we hear nowdays.
In traditional music notation the vertical and the horizontal dimentions
have equal value. This balance is one of the great conceptual forces that
shaped Western music from, from Monteverdi to Stockhausen.

In reply to a previous post, I believe that laying out a score for a
symphony
is extremely different than laying out .WAV or .AIFF files and MIDI tracks.

In my own everyday experience of working with both media, I find the
difference in musicl thinking to be vast.

edr
--Boundary_(ID_F8tEw82T99GDTujPXt7EMw)--

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Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:16:59 -0500
From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] the ambient addition
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--Boundary_(ID_WH0sL4OWAEDWHNTDISKepg)
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check this:

http://web.media.mit.edu/~nvawter/thesis/index.html

Ambient Addition is a Walkman with binaural microphones. A tiny  
Digital Signal Processing (DSP) chip analyzes the microphone's sound  
and superimposes a layer of harmony and rhythm on top of the  
listener's world. In the new context, some surprising behaviors take  
place. Listeners tend to play with objects around them, sing to  
themselves, and wander toward tempting sound sources. With Ambient  
Addition, I'm hoping to make people think twice about the sounds they  
initiate as well as loosen up some inhibitions.
--Boundary_(ID_WH0sL4OWAEDWHNTDISKepg)--

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> The other issue is the visual representation of sound. All musicians
> will agree that sound is powerful enough to need some visual
> representation. IMHO I have no doubts about that. What is tested here
> is our capacity to resist the pressure that the audio-visual mass 
> culture is making on us.

I have no doubt that this no agreement that sound needs visual
representation.

Where is the pressure to include visuals coming from? Are electronic
music programs telling students to include visual now?

Is the success of youtube making muscians without visuals feel
humbled??


> Should we add visuals to our music? (done by ourselves or with the
> aid of
> a filmmaker). Could it be that we are lacking performance skills? Or
> even
> musical skills to generate a really overwhelming musical or sound
> enviroment for an audience? Should a musician perform? Is it
> mandatory?
> The problem is deeper than it seems.

Obviously these are questions that individuals must decide for
themselves.. I don't see why there has to be a group consensus over it.


Adrian

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Just wanted to quickly say that I completely agree with Henke's quote.

The applications we use have an important effect on our process and final
result. Period.

Sequencers (Protools, Logic, DP, etc...) encourage us to think in very
specifics way -- multiple tracks displaying oh so very linear info --

Sequencers are the mainstream and thus this way of working/thinking is a
major influence on almost all the music we hear today. I have in fact, meet
many professional musicians and producers who don't even realize it is
possible to compose, perform and edit in other ways.

Thankfully, this list is open to experimentation and alternatives.

Also, about quantization, I understand what you all mean in the context of
this discussion. But make no mistake: everything you input into the computer
is quantized. ALWAYS.

-- It doesn't matter if quantize is turned on or off. 'Quantize on' simply
makes it adhere to more particular rules. --

Ultimately, aware or not, like all other instruments, the computer is a
filter. 

The tool has become the message.

keep composing. 
cheers,

Eloy 
 -----
xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
347.225.1058



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Le 06-12-19 à 02:12, David Powers a écrit :

> I strongly disagree, because, his point is NOT meant only to apply to
> performing, but equally to creating/composing. In fact, I don't think
> he was really talk about performance at all. What indication do you
> find that he's referencing performing as opposed to
> producing/arranging/composing? And laying out a score for a symphony,
> isn't so different from laying out .WAV or .AIFF files (or Midi
> pianoroll) in the digital sequencing program of your choice.

You're right that he was emphasizing the composing aspect -- that  
wasn't what I had in mind when I wrote my first sentence.

What I thought was that your examples (the jazz student who "learns a  
bunch of scales off a page" and John Coltrane who practices patterns  
from Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Scales) referred to the learning or  
formative process, which wasn't really linked to RH's point.

Now, of course, I guess you could argue that the formative process is  
intrinsically linked to the composition process...

> Should a composer not use any form of visual notation because some
> people become fixated on such notation to the detriment of the music?
> The very idea is ridiculous. If your music suffers from such visual
> aids, it simply means you aren't a good musician/composer.
>
> ~David
>
> On 12/18/06, Guillaume Grenier <xxxxxxx.x@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
>> Le 06-12-18 à 19:38, David Powers a écrit :
>>
>> > Another example (again not from the digital domain):
>> > Every music school has their students in, say, the jazz program,  
>> who
>> > learn a bunch of scales off a page but can't seem to ever use their
>> > ears and put those patterns together in a musical way. But John
>> > Coltrane was known to practice extensively from Slominzky's  
>> Thesaurus
>> > of Scales (which is simply an abstract representation of basic  
>> musical
>> > building blocks), and I think everyone would agree this only  
>> enhanced
>> > his ability to improvise.
>>
>> Yeah... but I don't think the argument you're making here relates
>> much to RH's point.
>>
>> A more relevant analogy with regards to a "traditional musical score
>> situation" would be, I think, a comparison between a musician who
>> performs a piece with a score versus one who performs a piece from
>> memory.
>>
>> To me (and to the vast majority of classical performers, I'd venture
>> to say), there is no question that playing from memory is vastly
>> preferable. You are much more free to listen attentively — deeply —
>> to the sounds you (or others, if you're doing chamber music) produce
>> when your mind doesn't have to process a significant amount of visual
>> information.
>>
>> It is thus no surprise that find myself in agreement with RH's view.
>>
>> g.
>>
>>   --
>>   Guillaume Grenier - xxxxxxx.x@xxxxxxxxx.xx
>>
>>   "Things are more like they are now than they ever were before."
>>
>>   (Dwight Eisenhower)
>>
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>>
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g.

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  "Things are more like they are now than they ever were before."

  (Dwight Eisenhower)



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from my understanding in my past conversations with robert djing in 
abelton was not what it was developed for it was just an accidental use of 
the tool orginally developed as a live sequencing. and yes it was 
orginally and I belive still is all built or prototyped in max/msp and 
then broght over to c++
abelton has come a long was since the early days but one thing is for sure 
it was not made in mind as a djing tool...


On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Simon Hampson wrote:

> I didn't think Ableton was created for djing. I always understood that
> Robert & co drafted it as a live performance tool in MAX/MSP and then ported
> it to C++ for a commercial release.
>
> The Djing thing was accidental..
>
> Simon.
>
>
> On 19/12/06 6:20 PM, "David Powers" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>> Interesting ... for me, I couldn't really draw a line between editing
>> and generating. It's part of the same process...
>>
>> But I LOATHE the piano roll, and I've also had problems just trying to
>> plug in a keyboard and play a simple live keyboard part. It's more
>> about assumptions Ableton makes about what I want to create, ie, that
>> it's a loop, that it should be quantitized. Every time I DON'T want to
>> make a loop, it turns out to be a real pain. I know there's
>> workarounds, but this is almost the only software in my life where I
>> had to read the manual!
>>
>> ~D
>>
>> On 12/19/06, Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>> On 12/18/06, David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Maybe this explains why Ableton's interface seems visually so lacking
>>>> to me. Okay, it's great for doing live DJing as it was originally
>>>> intended, but every time I go to write some kind of piece with it and
>>>> use it more like a traditional sequencer, the interface drives me
>>>> absolutely insane. I just can't get a good workflow going in it...
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That's funny, because I find that I am so addicted to Ableton Live because
>>> it has the most elegant interface that I've ever used.  I feel like I'm on
>>> Star Trek: The Next Generation when I use it.  All that's lacking is a
>>> multi-touch screen (pleeeease Apple!)
>>>
>>> But I do agree that it's nice to listen to music w/out visual aid.  I read
>>> an Autechre interview where they discuss similar things as well.  I think
>>> that the visual aspect is great for editing, but not producing.  I hardly
>>> even look at the screen when I'm generating content, rather when I'm editing
>>> it.
>>>
>>> ~Kyle
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> http://theradioproject.com
>>> http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> (((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
>>> (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
>>> ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
>>> _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
>>> ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>
> Symbiosis - Experimental Sound Textures and Rhythms
>
> Wednesday nights / 10pm - 12am
> 102.7 FM / www.rrr.org.au
> Melbourne / Australia
> xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx
>
>
>
>
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I'll have to agree with Mr. Henke here, visual representation of  
sound is ultimately a crutch.

I didn't read into this particular passage that he's talking at all  
about performance.

On Dec 18, 2006, at 3:24 PM, Graham Miller wrote:

> any thoughts on this? agree? disagree?


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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 16:24:25 2006
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Eriksson?= <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] tonight in stockholm
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Are you in Stockholm on wednesday too?... I think there might be some 
happening at Ugglan at Närkesgatan on Södermalm. (in the cellar)
Not microsound though, but they often play very interesting music in the bar 
and a very nice and friendly place.

/Björn Eriksson


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "philip leitner" <xxxxxx.xxxxxxx@xxx.xxx>
To: <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:16 PM
Subject: [microsound] tonight in stockholm


> hi,
>
> i'm just on transfer in stockholm
>
> and now searching for an interessing concert or cultural event
> happening tonight.
>
> i'm happy for any hint, as i'm absolutely stockholm newbie.
>
> thanks
>
> p
>
> -- 
> ++++++++++++++
> Der Autor distanziert sich deutlich vom ganzen Werbemüll ab der nächsten
> Zeile
> ++++++++++++++
>
> Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen!
> Ideal für Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer
>
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> 


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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 15:56:00 2006
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Eriksson?= <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] gigs in january, anyone??
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I think there should be a lot of different happenings in these cities. I 
think for instance there might be another round with Das Kleine Field 
Recordings Festival in januar in Berlin. But I might be wrong on this too.. 
ask Rinus van Alebeek.

Another thing we could use the creativity and knowledge on this list is to 
add up to the wiki. There is some listings on venues in 4 countries that 
might be interesting to visit.  You find these under Reference - Places
Go here for the Europe section:
http://www.interdisciplina.org/microsound-wiki/index.php/Europe

To find to the Wiki, just follow the link at downl left "Wiki".
To sign up for adding follow the instructions at "create account" at top 
right. Those e-mails that are subbed to the .microsound list are permitted 
to start an account. If any problem with this ask Paolo Mouat or me.

Yours,
Björn Eriksson


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Javier Areal Vélez" <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx>
To: <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:17 AM
Subject: [microsound] gigs in january, anyone??



hello!


altough I didnt get any replies to my first mail, I´m going to try once 
again:



could any of you share some data about interesting gigs + art/sound 
instalations + etc, taking place during january 2007, in madrid, paris, 
london and/or berlin???



i'm travelling to these places and I really believe that there must be 
someone here who can help me out. i googled a lot but could not find any 
decent data.





thank you!
and i hope this isn't bothering you too much!





Javier









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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 15:44:50 2006
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Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:40:36 -0500
From: Michael North <xxxxxxx.xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: RE: [microsound] an interesting monolake answer
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Has anyone looked at the ixi-software.net apps...for 3D interfaces they have
micworld, which I've found interesting......

//*-----Original Message-----
//*From: Graham Miller [mailto:xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx]
//*Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:14 AM
//*To: microsound
//*Subject: Re: [microsound] an interesting monolake answer
//*
//*in this area i still think of that autechre video for gantz graf is a
//*stunning hybrid of sound meets visuals:
//*
//*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMRjmtSx24A
//*
//*but i think we're getting away from the original quote which wasn't
//*so much about visuals and music in performance, but rather how GUI
//*and the visual representation of music affects the music making
//*process itself, positively or negatively.
//*
//*in my imagination, i have always thought that best kind of computer
//*instrument would be closer to a military flight simulator. some kind
//*immersive virtual 3D environment to navigate through, controlled
//*either physically, or mentally. it would a sound space. this is,
//*after all, what music is, in aural form: a sound space.
//*
//*or reverse engineer the gantz graf video, for instance. imagine that
//*the video itself was a live interface for producing sound, and that
//*the piece of music, was created by that interface, not the other way
//*around, as it actually is.  that gantz graf 'world' could be accessed
//*through virtual reality technology and that geometry of the VR world
//*could be manipulated, like an instrument, to produce sound.
//*
//*the reality of it is: there will be different interfaces for every
//*person.  the ultimate trend is total customization and individuality.
//*just look at already how many different ways there are to use live.
//*no two people i know use it exactly the same way, and its hardly at
//*the level of customization of, say, MAX or reaktor. can the same be
//*said for pro tools?
//*
//*g.
//*
//*
//*On 19-Dec-06, at 8:03 AM, Cooptrol wrote:
//*
//*> I've been discussing this music-video dilemma for some time now,
//*> even with
//*> Rob Henke, or Thomas Koner for example.
//*>
//*> I've been trying to enter the video world by learning jitter, using
//*> traditional software like premier or after effects. My conclusion
//*> is that
//*> no technical expertise can match the years in visual formation that
//*> people
//*> who make videos and movies have. I simply can't figure out how to
//*> manage
//*> the material, and how to develop a powerful audio-visual piece without
//*> collapsing into the lame-visuals-good-music-or-viceversa problem.
//*>
//*> The other issue is the visual representation of sound. All
//*> musicians will
//*> agree that sound is powerful enough to need some visual
//*> representation.
//*> IMHO I have no doubts about that. What is tested here is our
//*> capacity to
//*> resist the pressure that the audio-visual mass culture is making on
//*> us.
//*> Should we add visuals to our music? (done by ourselves or with the
//*> aid of
//*> a filmmaker). Could it be that we are lacking performance skills?
//*> Or even
//*> musical skills to generate a really overwhelming musical or sound
//*> enviroment for an audience? Should a musician perform? Is it
//*> mandatory?
//*> The problem is deeper than it seems.
//*>
//*> Some people has been successful in this quest and others haven't.
//*> Check
//*> out this example, the Incite duo from Hamburg. Excellent music with
//*> excellent visuals, all homogenuous. And they told me they both do
//*> visuals
//*> and music (not the typical laptop musician/VJ line-up). And what's
//*> more
//*> outstanding is that they pre-edit everything and then reproduce
//*> audio and
//*> video clips in order following a written (!) score.
//*>
//*> http://www.incite.fragmentedmedia.org/video_incite.html
//*>
//*> Hernan
//*>
//*> www.cooptrol.com
//*>
//*>
//*>> I didn't think Ableton was created for djing. I always understood
//*>> that
//*>> Robert & co drafted it as a live performance tool in MAX/MSP and then
//*>> ported
//*>> it to C++ for a commercial release.
//*>>
//*>> The Djing thing was accidental..
//*>>
//*>> Simon.
//*>>
//*>>
//*>> On 19/12/06 6:20 PM, "David Powers" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
//*>>
//*>>> Interesting ... for me, I couldn't really draw a line between
//*>>> editing
//*>>> and generating. It's part of the same process...
//*>>>
//*>>> But I LOATHE the piano roll, and I've also had problems just
//*>>> trying to
//*>>> plug in a keyboard and play a simple live keyboard part. It's more
//*>>> about assumptions Ableton makes about what I want to create, ie,
//*>>> that
//*>>> it's a loop, that it should be quantitized. Every time I DON'T
//*>>> want to
//*>>> make a loop, it turns out to be a real pain. I know there's
//*>>> workarounds, but this is almost the only software in my life where I
//*>>> had to read the manual!
//*>>>
//*>>> ~D
//*>>>
//*>>> On 12/19/06, Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
//*>>>> On 12/18/06, David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
//*>>>>
//*>>>>> Maybe this explains why Ableton's interface seems visually so
//*>>>>> lacking
//*>>>>> to me. Okay, it's great for doing live DJing as it was originally
//*>>>>> intended, but every time I go to write some kind of piece with
//*>>>>> it and
//*>>>>> use it more like a traditional sequencer, the interface drives me
//*>>>>> absolutely insane. I just can't get a good workflow going in it...
//*>>>>>
//*>>>>>
//*>>>> That's funny, because I find that I am so addicted to Ableton Live
//*>>>> because
//*>>>> it has the most elegant interface that I've ever used.  I feel
//*>>>> like I'm
//*>>>> on
//*>>>> Star Trek: The Next Generation when I use it.  All that's
//*>>>> lacking is a
//*>>>> multi-touch screen (pleeeease Apple!)
//*>>>>
//*>>>> But I do agree that it's nice to listen to music w/out visual
//*>>>> aid.  I
//*>>>> read
//*>>>> an Autechre interview where they discuss similar things as well.  I
//*>>>> think
//*>>>> that the visual aspect is great for editing, but not producing.  I
//*>>>> hardly
//*>>>> even look at the screen when I'm generating content, rather when
//*>>>> I'm
//*>>>> editing
//*>>>> it.
//*>>>>
//*>>>> ~Kyle
//*>>>>
//*>>>> --
//*>>>>
//*>>>> http://theradioproject.com
//*>>>> http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
//*>>>>
//*>>>> (((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
//*>>>> (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
//*>>>> ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
//*>>>> _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
//*>>>> ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
//*>>>>
//*>>>>
//*>>>
//*>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
//*>>> -
//*>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
//*>>>
//*>>>
//*>>
//*>> Symbiosis - Experimental Sound Textures and Rhythms
//*>>
//*>> Wednesday nights / 10pm - 12am
//*>> 102.7 FM / www.rrr.org.au
//*>> Melbourne / Australia
//*>> xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx
//*>>
//*>>
//*>>
//*>>
//*>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
//*>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*>> website: http://www.microsound.org
//*>>
//*>>
//*>
//*>
//*>
//*> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
//*> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*> website: http://www.microsound.org
//*
//*
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//*For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
//*website: http://www.microsound.org


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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 15:17:19 2006
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Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:16:55 +0100
From: philip leitner <xxxxxx.xxxxxxx@xxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] tonight in stockholm
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hi,

i'm just on transfer in stockholm

and now searching for an interessing concert or cultural event
happening tonight.

i'm happy for any hint, as i'm absolutely stockholm newbie.

thanks

p

-- 
++++++++++++++
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Zeile
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Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! 
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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 15:14:16 2006
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From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] an interesting monolake answer
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in this area i still think of that autechre video for gantz graf is a  
stunning hybrid of sound meets visuals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMRjmtSx24A

but i think we're getting away from the original quote which wasn't  
so much about visuals and music in performance, but rather how GUI  
and the visual representation of music affects the music making  
process itself, positively or negatively.

in my imagination, i have always thought that best kind of computer  
instrument would be closer to a military flight simulator. some kind  
immersive virtual 3D environment to navigate through, controlled  
either physically, or mentally. it would a sound space. this is,  
after all, what music is, in aural form: a sound space.

or reverse engineer the gantz graf video, for instance. imagine that  
the video itself was a live interface for producing sound, and that  
the piece of music, was created by that interface, not the other way  
around, as it actually is.  that gantz graf 'world' could be accessed  
through virtual reality technology and that geometry of the VR world  
could be manipulated, like an instrument, to produce sound.

the reality of it is: there will be different interfaces for every  
person.  the ultimate trend is total customization and individuality.  
just look at already how many different ways there are to use live.   
no two people i know use it exactly the same way, and its hardly at  
the level of customization of, say, MAX or reaktor. can the same be  
said for pro tools?

g.


On 19-Dec-06, at 8:03 AM, Cooptrol wrote:

> I've been discussing this music-video dilemma for some time now,  
> even with
> Rob Henke, or Thomas Koner for example.
>
> I've been trying to enter the video world by learning jitter, using
> traditional software like premier or after effects. My conclusion  
> is that
> no technical expertise can match the years in visual formation that  
> people
> who make videos and movies have. I simply can't figure out how to  
> manage
> the material, and how to develop a powerful audio-visual piece without
> collapsing into the lame-visuals-good-music-or-viceversa problem.
>
> The other issue is the visual representation of sound. All  
> musicians will
> agree that sound is powerful enough to need some visual  
> representation.
> IMHO I have no doubts about that. What is tested here is our  
> capacity to
> resist the pressure that the audio-visual mass culture is making on  
> us.
> Should we add visuals to our music? (done by ourselves or with the  
> aid of
> a filmmaker). Could it be that we are lacking performance skills?  
> Or even
> musical skills to generate a really overwhelming musical or sound
> enviroment for an audience? Should a musician perform? Is it  
> mandatory?
> The problem is deeper than it seems.
>
> Some people has been successful in this quest and others haven't.  
> Check
> out this example, the Incite duo from Hamburg. Excellent music with
> excellent visuals, all homogenuous. And they told me they both do  
> visuals
> and music (not the typical laptop musician/VJ line-up). And what's  
> more
> outstanding is that they pre-edit everything and then reproduce  
> audio and
> video clips in order following a written (!) score.
>
> http://www.incite.fragmentedmedia.org/video_incite.html
>
> Hernan
>
> www.cooptrol.com
>
>
>> I didn't think Ableton was created for djing. I always understood  
>> that
>> Robert & co drafted it as a live performance tool in MAX/MSP and then
>> ported
>> it to C++ for a commercial release.
>>
>> The Djing thing was accidental..
>>
>> Simon.
>>
>>
>> On 19/12/06 6:20 PM, "David Powers" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting ... for me, I couldn't really draw a line between  
>>> editing
>>> and generating. It's part of the same process...
>>>
>>> But I LOATHE the piano roll, and I've also had problems just  
>>> trying to
>>> plug in a keyboard and play a simple live keyboard part. It's more
>>> about assumptions Ableton makes about what I want to create, ie,  
>>> that
>>> it's a loop, that it should be quantitized. Every time I DON'T  
>>> want to
>>> make a loop, it turns out to be a real pain. I know there's
>>> workarounds, but this is almost the only software in my life where I
>>> had to read the manual!
>>>
>>> ~D
>>>
>>> On 12/19/06, Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>> On 12/18/06, David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe this explains why Ableton's interface seems visually so  
>>>>> lacking
>>>>> to me. Okay, it's great for doing live DJing as it was originally
>>>>> intended, but every time I go to write some kind of piece with  
>>>>> it and
>>>>> use it more like a traditional sequencer, the interface drives me
>>>>> absolutely insane. I just can't get a good workflow going in it...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> That's funny, because I find that I am so addicted to Ableton Live
>>>> because
>>>> it has the most elegant interface that I've ever used.  I feel  
>>>> like I'm
>>>> on
>>>> Star Trek: The Next Generation when I use it.  All that's  
>>>> lacking is a
>>>> multi-touch screen (pleeeease Apple!)
>>>>
>>>> But I do agree that it's nice to listen to music w/out visual  
>>>> aid.  I
>>>> read
>>>> an Autechre interview where they discuss similar things as well.  I
>>>> think
>>>> that the visual aspect is great for editing, but not producing.  I
>>>> hardly
>>>> even look at the screen when I'm generating content, rather when  
>>>> I'm
>>>> editing
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> ~Kyle
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> http://theradioproject.com
>>>> http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>> (((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
>>>> (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
>>>> ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
>>>> _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
>>>> ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Symbiosis - Experimental Sound Textures and Rhythms
>>
>> Wednesday nights / 10pm - 12am
>> 102.7 FM / www.rrr.org.au
>> Melbourne / Australia
>> xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 14:58:48 2006
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From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] an interesting monolake answer
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hilarious!  it's the only software in my life where i haven't had to  
read the manual! i find live to be the most intuitive way to work.  
and i love the GUI - i agree w/ kyle: total ST:TNG (also check out  
the hartmann neuron and all things LEMUR).

i guess that's why there are different products to choose from in our  
great individualist capitalist society:)

g.

On 19-Dec-06, at 2:20 AM, David Powers wrote:

> Interesting ... for me, I couldn't really draw a line between editing
> and generating. It's part of the same process...
>
> But I LOATHE the piano roll, and I've also had problems just trying to
> plug in a keyboard and play a simple live keyboard part. It's more
> about assumptions Ableton makes about what I want to create, ie, that
> it's a loop, that it should be quantitized. Every time I DON'T want to
> make a loop, it turns out to be a real pain. I know there's
> workarounds, but this is almost the only software in my life where I
> had to read the manual!
>
> ~D
>
> On 12/19/06, Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>> On 12/18/06, David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>
>> > Maybe this explains why Ableton's interface seems visually so  
>> lacking
>> > to me. Okay, it's great for doing live DJing as it was originally
>> > intended, but every time I go to write some kind of piece with  
>> it and
>> > use it more like a traditional sequencer, the interface drives me
>> > absolutely insane. I just can't get a good workflow going in it...
>> >
>> >
>> That's funny, because I find that I am so addicted to Ableton Live  
>> because
>> it has the most elegant interface that I've ever used.  I feel  
>> like I'm on
>> Star Trek: The Next Generation when I use it.  All that's lacking  
>> is a
>> multi-touch screen (pleeeease Apple!)
>>
>> But I do agree that it's nice to listen to music w/out visual  
>> aid.  I read
>> an Autechre interview where they discuss similar things as well.   
>> I think
>> that the visual aspect is great for editing, but not producing.  I  
>> hardly
>> even look at the screen when I'm generating content, rather when  
>> I'm editing
>> it.
>>
>> ~Kyle
>>
>> --
>>
>> http://theradioproject.com
>> http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
>>
>> (((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
>> (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
>> ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
>> _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
>> ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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This is true.  When I started using Ableton's software (late 2004) I ended
up having to BUY Live 4 (after their well-executed marketing plan to break
the cracked version after a few months) and I read the entire manual over a
week.  I never understand why people refuse to read manuals, thinking that
they'll be more creative on their own.  To me, reading a manual for a tool
is just like Coltrane reading a scales book.  It makes me MORE creative, not
LESS.

But yeah, I generally create everything without quantizing, buy playing it
live into the computer through MIDI or recording.  Sometimes I use a drum
machine style beat, but other than that, it's pretty loose.

~Kyle


On 12/19/06, David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> Interesting ... for me, I couldn't really draw a line between editing
> and generating. It's part of the same process...
>
> But I LOATHE the piano roll, and I've also had problems just trying to
> plug in a keyboard and play a simple live keyboard part. It's more
> about assumptions Ableton makes about what I want to create, ie, that
> it's a loop, that it should be quantitized. Every time I DON'T want to
> make a loop, it turns out to be a real pain. I know there's
> workarounds, but this is almost the only software in my life where I
> had to read the manual!
>
> ~D
>
> On 12/19/06, Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > On 12/18/06, David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe this explains why Ableton's interface seems visually so lacking
> > > to me. Okay, it's great for doing live DJing as it was originally
> > > intended, but every time I go to write some kind of piece with it and
> > > use it more like a traditional sequencer, the interface drives me
> > > absolutely insane. I just can't get a good workflow going in it...
> > >
> > >
> > That's funny, because I find that I am so addicted to Ableton Live
> because
> > it has the most elegant interface that I've ever used.  I feel like I'm
> on
> > Star Trek: The Next Generation when I use it.  All that's lacking is a
> > multi-touch screen (pleeeease Apple!)
> >
> > But I do agree that it's nice to listen to music w/out visual aid.  I
> read
> > an Autechre interview where they discuss similar things as well.  I
> think
> > that the visual aspect is great for editing, but not producing.  I
> hardly
> > even look at the screen when I'm generating content, rather when I'm
> editing
> > it.
> >
> > ~Kyle
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://theradioproject.com
> > http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
> >
> > (((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
> > (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
> > ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
> > _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
> > ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>


-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
(())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
_____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
--Boundary_(ID_XiwpLExEiMGWhuTh8NVoDQ)--

From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 14:17:01 2006
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//*From: David Powers [mailto:xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx]
//*Another example (again not from the digital domain):
//*Every music school has their students in, say, the jazz program, who
//*learn a bunch of scales off a page but can't seem to ever use their
//*ears and put those patterns together in a musical way. But John
//*Coltrane was known to practice extensively from Slominzky's Thesaurus
//*of Scales (which is simply an abstract representation of basic musical
//*building blocks), and I think everyone would agree this only enhanced
//*his ability to improvise.
//*
//*~David

in jazz/usually/it's required the players have a firm grounding in scales,
keys, chord progressions , transposition etc. as a basis for coherent
soloing/interplay...as it is required that the players have a grounding in
the standard jazz repertoire, an appreciation/understanding of what has come
before them in terms of playing/tonal colourations/phrasing...this generally
holds whether the player is involved in traditional, swing, cool, modal or
the wildest fringes of the free music scene..................


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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 13:10:37 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] micro...something
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nic, me thinks this is fantastic. do you know the "movie" entitled "der lauf
der dinge" bei the swiss artist duo "fischli/weiss"?

very similar...
cheers, ralph.

Am 19.12.2006 12:02 Uhr schrieb "nicola catalano" unter <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xx>:

> maybe many of you have already seen this... amazing, crazy zen
> micro...something, me think!
> 
> http://video.google.it/videoplay?docid=3163263343187879320&q=machine
> 
> cheers!
> nic
> 
> 
> +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +
> +
> 
> "talkers do not know, knowers do not talk." lao-tzu
> 
> 
> 
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> 

-- 
http://www.synchron.ch .:.::.:.



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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 13:04:05 2006
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From: Cooptrol <xxxx@xxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] an interesting monolake answer
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I've been discussing this music-video dilemma for some time now, even with
Rob Henke, or Thomas Koner for example.

I've been trying to enter the video world by learning jitter, using
traditional software like premier or after effects. My conclusion is that
no technical expertise can match the years in visual formation that people
who make videos and movies have. I simply can't figure out how to manage
the material, and how to develop a powerful audio-visual piece without
collapsing into the lame-visuals-good-music-or-viceversa problem.

The other issue is the visual representation of sound. All musicians will
agree that sound is powerful enough to need some visual representation.
IMHO I have no doubts about that. What is tested here is our capacity to
resist the pressure that the audio-visual mass culture is making on us.
Should we add visuals to our music? (done by ourselves or with the aid of
a filmmaker). Could it be that we are lacking performance skills? Or even
musical skills to generate a really overwhelming musical or sound
enviroment for an audience? Should a musician perform? Is it mandatory?
The problem is deeper than it seems.

Some people has been successful in this quest and others haven't. Check
out this example, the Incite duo from Hamburg. Excellent music with
excellent visuals, all homogenuous. And they told me they both do visuals
and music (not the typical laptop musician/VJ line-up). And what's more
outstanding is that they pre-edit everything and then reproduce audio and
video clips in order following a written (!) score.

http://www.incite.fragmentedmedia.org/video_incite.html

Hernan

www.cooptrol.com


> I didn't think Ableton was created for djing. I always understood that
> Robert & co drafted it as a live performance tool in MAX/MSP and then
> ported
> it to C++ for a commercial release.
>
> The Djing thing was accidental..
>
> Simon.
>
>
> On 19/12/06 6:20 PM, "David Powers" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>> Interesting ... for me, I couldn't really draw a line between editing
>> and generating. It's part of the same process...
>>
>> But I LOATHE the piano roll, and I've also had problems just trying to
>> plug in a keyboard and play a simple live keyboard part. It's more
>> about assumptions Ableton makes about what I want to create, ie, that
>> it's a loop, that it should be quantitized. Every time I DON'T want to
>> make a loop, it turns out to be a real pain. I know there's
>> workarounds, but this is almost the only software in my life where I
>> had to read the manual!
>>
>> ~D
>>
>> On 12/19/06, Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>> On 12/18/06, David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Maybe this explains why Ableton's interface seems visually so lacking
>>>> to me. Okay, it's great for doing live DJing as it was originally
>>>> intended, but every time I go to write some kind of piece with it and
>>>> use it more like a traditional sequencer, the interface drives me
>>>> absolutely insane. I just can't get a good workflow going in it...
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That's funny, because I find that I am so addicted to Ableton Live
>>> because
>>> it has the most elegant interface that I've ever used.  I feel like I'm
>>> on
>>> Star Trek: The Next Generation when I use it.  All that's lacking is a
>>> multi-touch screen (pleeeease Apple!)
>>>
>>> But I do agree that it's nice to listen to music w/out visual aid.  I
>>> read
>>> an Autechre interview where they discuss similar things as well.  I
>>> think
>>> that the visual aspect is great for editing, but not producing.  I
>>> hardly
>>> even look at the screen when I'm generating content, rather when I'm
>>> editing
>>> it.
>>>
>>> ~Kyle
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> http://theradioproject.com
>>> http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> (((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
>>> (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
>>> ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
>>> _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
>>> ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>>
>>
>
> Symbiosis - Experimental Sound Textures and Rhythms
>
> Wednesday nights / 10pm - 12am
> 102.7 FM / www.rrr.org.au
> Melbourne / Australia
> xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx
>
>
>
>
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>
>



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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 11:18:01 2006
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Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:02:43 +0100
From: nicola catalano <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] micro...something
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maybe many of you have already seen this... amazing, crazy zen
micro...something, me think!

http://video.google.it/videoplay?docid=3163263343187879320&q=machine

cheers!
nic


+  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +

"talkers do not know, knowers do not talk." lao-tzu



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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 09:54:21 2006
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From: Simon Hampson <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] an interesting monolake answer
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I didn't think Ableton was created for djing. I always understood that
Robert & co drafted it as a live performance tool in MAX/MSP and then ported
it to C++ for a commercial release.

The Djing thing was accidental..

Simon.


On 19/12/06 6:20 PM, "David Powers" <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> Interesting ... for me, I couldn't really draw a line between editing
> and generating. It's part of the same process...
> 
> But I LOATHE the piano roll, and I've also had problems just trying to
> plug in a keyboard and play a simple live keyboard part. It's more
> about assumptions Ableton makes about what I want to create, ie, that
> it's a loop, that it should be quantitized. Every time I DON'T want to
> make a loop, it turns out to be a real pain. I know there's
> workarounds, but this is almost the only software in my life where I
> had to read the manual!
> 
> ~D
> 
> On 12/19/06, Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>> On 12/18/06, David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>> 
>>> Maybe this explains why Ableton's interface seems visually so lacking
>>> to me. Okay, it's great for doing live DJing as it was originally
>>> intended, but every time I go to write some kind of piece with it and
>>> use it more like a traditional sequencer, the interface drives me
>>> absolutely insane. I just can't get a good workflow going in it...
>>> 
>>> 
>> That's funny, because I find that I am so addicted to Ableton Live because
>> it has the most elegant interface that I've ever used.  I feel like I'm on
>> Star Trek: The Next Generation when I use it.  All that's lacking is a
>> multi-touch screen (pleeeease Apple!)
>> 
>> But I do agree that it's nice to listen to music w/out visual aid.  I read
>> an Autechre interview where they discuss similar things as well.  I think
>> that the visual aspect is great for editing, but not producing.  I hardly
>> even look at the screen when I'm generating content, rather when I'm editing
>> it.
>> 
>> ~Kyle
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> http://theradioproject.com
>> http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
>> 
>> (((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
>> (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
>> ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
>> _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
>> ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
>> 
>> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
> 
> 

Symbiosis - Experimental Sound Textures and Rhythms

Wednesday nights / 10pm - 12am
102.7 FM / www.rrr.org.au
Melbourne / Australia
xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx




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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 07:20:25 2006
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Interesting ... for me, I couldn't really draw a line between editing
and generating. It's part of the same process...

But I LOATHE the piano roll, and I've also had problems just trying to
plug in a keyboard and play a simple live keyboard part. It's more
about assumptions Ableton makes about what I want to create, ie, that
it's a loop, that it should be quantitized. Every time I DON'T want to
make a loop, it turns out to be a real pain. I know there's
workarounds, but this is almost the only software in my life where I
had to read the manual!

~D

On 12/19/06, Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> On 12/18/06, David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> > Maybe this explains why Ableton's interface seems visually so lacking
> > to me. Okay, it's great for doing live DJing as it was originally
> > intended, but every time I go to write some kind of piece with it and
> > use it more like a traditional sequencer, the interface drives me
> > absolutely insane. I just can't get a good workflow going in it...
> >
> >
> That's funny, because I find that I am so addicted to Ableton Live because
> it has the most elegant interface that I've ever used.  I feel like I'm on
> Star Trek: The Next Generation when I use it.  All that's lacking is a
> multi-touch screen (pleeeease Apple!)
>
> But I do agree that it's nice to listen to music w/out visual aid.  I read
> an Autechre interview where they discuss similar things as well.  I think
> that the visual aspect is great for editing, but not producing.  I hardly
> even look at the screen when I'm generating content, rather when I'm editing
> it.
>
> ~Kyle
>
> --
>
> http://theradioproject.com
> http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
>
> (((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
> (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
> ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
> _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
> ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
>
>

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On 12/18/06, David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> Maybe this explains why Ableton's interface seems visually so lacking
> to me. Okay, it's great for doing live DJing as it was originally
> intended, but every time I go to write some kind of piece with it and
> use it more like a traditional sequencer, the interface drives me
> absolutely insane. I just can't get a good workflow going in it...
>
>
That's funny, because I find that I am so addicted to Ableton Live because
it has the most elegant interface that I've ever used.  I feel like I'm on
Star Trek: The Next Generation when I use it.  All that's lacking is a
multi-touch screen (pleeeease Apple!)

But I do agree that it's nice to listen to music w/out visual aid.  I read
an Autechre interview where they discuss similar things as well.  I think
that the visual aspect is great for editing, but not producing.  I hardly
even look at the screen when I'm generating content, rather when I'm editing
it.

~Kyle

-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
(())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
_____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
--Boundary_(ID_CcsyYcXuSNsa0zcvYgPAZQ)--

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I strongly disagree, because, his point is NOT meant only to apply to
performing, but equally to creating/composing. In fact, I don't think
he was really talk about performance at all. What indication do you
find that he's referencing performing as opposed to
producing/arranging/composing? And laying out a score for a symphony,
isn't so different from laying out .WAV or .AIFF files (or Midi
pianoroll) in the digital sequencing program of your choice.

Should a composer not use any form of visual notation because some
people become fixated on such notation to the detriment of the music?
The very idea is ridiculous. If your music suffers from such visual
aids, it simply means you aren't a good musician/composer.

~David

On 12/18/06, Guillaume Grenier <xxxxxxx.x@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
> Le 06-12-18 à 19:38, David Powers a écrit :
>
> > Another example (again not from the digital domain):
> > Every music school has their students in, say, the jazz program, who
> > learn a bunch of scales off a page but can't seem to ever use their
> > ears and put those patterns together in a musical way. But John
> > Coltrane was known to practice extensively from Slominzky's Thesaurus
> > of Scales (which is simply an abstract representation of basic musical
> > building blocks), and I think everyone would agree this only enhanced
> > his ability to improvise.
>
> Yeah... but I don't think the argument you're making here relates
> much to RH's point.
>
> A more relevant analogy with regards to a "traditional musical score
> situation" would be, I think, a comparison between a musician who
> performs a piece with a score versus one who performs a piece from
> memory.
>
> To me (and to the vast majority of classical performers, I'd venture
> to say), there is no question that playing from memory is vastly
> preferable. You are much more free to listen attentively — deeply —
> to the sounds you (or others, if you're doing chamber music) produce
> when your mind doesn't have to process a significant amount of visual
> information.
>
> It is thus no surprise that find myself in agreement with RH's view.
>
> g.
>
>   --
>   Guillaume Grenier - xxxxxxx.x@xxxxxxxxx.xx
>
>   "Things are more like they are now than they ever were before."
>
>   (Dwight Eisenhower)
>
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>

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>So, to preempt the deluge of year-end favorites lists, I'd love to 
>see some thought about a slightly tougher list.... Anyone want to 
>submit a short list (preferably just a single album/piece) of music 
>this

I really enjoyed Gintas K's work "Jamaika" which you can download at 
http://www.archive.org/details/pmact8

lost track on how many times I played it...  I like the idea that the 
whole work was built from one 2-second clip of material. I found it 
very meditative and relaxing while retaining an edge during the whole 
piece.  what else?  it speaks the language of sound better than I can 
circumscribe it with words...

other work of his is at http://www.last.fm/music/Gintas+K

Merry New Year,

Peace NOW.

JH

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Le 06-12-18 à 19:38, David Powers a écrit :

> Another example (again not from the digital domain):
> Every music school has their students in, say, the jazz program, who
> learn a bunch of scales off a page but can't seem to ever use their
> ears and put those patterns together in a musical way. But John
> Coltrane was known to practice extensively from Slominzky's Thesaurus
> of Scales (which is simply an abstract representation of basic musical
> building blocks), and I think everyone would agree this only enhanced
> his ability to improvise.

Yeah... but I don't think the argument you're making here relates  
much to RH's point.

A more relevant analogy with regards to a "traditional musical score  
situation" would be, I think, a comparison between a musician who  
performs a piece with a score versus one who performs a piece from  
memory.

To me (and to the vast majority of classical performers, I'd venture  
to say), there is no question that playing from memory is vastly  
preferable. You are much more free to listen attentively — deeply —  
to the sounds you (or others, if you're doing chamber music) produce  
when your mind doesn't have to process a significant amount of visual  
information.

It is thus no surprise that find myself in agreement with RH's view.

g.

  --
  Guillaume Grenier - xxxxxxx.x@xxxxxxxxx.xx

  "Things are more like they are now than they ever were before."

  (Dwight Eisenhower)

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Of the new stuff i've bought this year: the burial cd (hyperdub) comes
immediately to mind...still on heavy rotation after many months (and I
normally don't do this kind of thing).


On 12/18/06 10:13 PM, "Scott Carver" <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> So, to preempt the deluge of year-end favorites lists, I'd love to see
> some thought about a slightly tougher list.... Anyone want to submit a
> short list (preferably just a single album/piece) of music this year
> that, for you, was truly a leap forward ( sideways, if you want to
> avoid Hegelian connotations) for microsound music, or music in general?
> Something that shifted the landscape, forced it's way into new
> territories, something that was unforgettably powerful or compelling,
> something incommensurable... Not so much the album that you listened to
> the most on your way to work, but more, the album that will be
> troubling you for a long time, the one that got you excited about the
> possibilities of music. Or, if not any of these things, then whatever
> comes closest. And why.
> 
> I've got to think for a bit about my choice.
> 
> - Scott Carver
> 
> 
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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 03:17:48 2006
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Javier_Areal_V=E9lez?= <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] gigs in january, anyone??
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 FILETIME=[3C93E3D0:01C7231C]


hello!


altough I didnt get any replies to my first mail, I´m going to try once again:



could any of you share some data about interesting gigs + art/sound instalations + etc, taking place during january 2007, in madrid, paris, london and/or berlin???



i'm travelling to these places and I really believe that there must be someone here who can help me out. i googled a lot but could not find any decent data.





thank you! 
and i hope this isn't bothering you too much!





Javier









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So, to preempt the deluge of year-end favorites lists, I'd love to see 
some thought about a slightly tougher list.... Anyone want to submit a 
short list (preferably just a single album/piece) of music this year 
that, for you, was truly a leap forward ( sideways, if you want to 
avoid Hegelian connotations) for microsound music, or music in general? 
Something that shifted the landscape, forced it's way into new 
territories, something that was unforgettably powerful or compelling, 
something incommensurable... Not so much the album that you listened to 
the most on your way to work, but more, the album that will be 
troubling you for a long time, the one that got you excited about the 
possibilities of music. Or, if not any of these things, then whatever 
comes closest. And why.

I've got to think for a bit about my choice.

- Scott Carver


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From ???@??? Tue Dec 19 00:38:51 2006
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On 12/18/06, Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
> any thoughts on this? agree? disagree?
> g.

> from: http://www.vagueterrain.net/content/archives/journal05/
> monolake02.html

> RH:  Visual representation of sound is evil.

Maybe this explains why Ableton's interface seems visually so lacking
to me. Okay, it's great for doing live DJing as it was originally
intended, but every time I go to write some kind of piece with it and
use it more like a traditional sequencer, the interface drives me
absolutely insane. I just can't get a good workflow going in it...

Also, this question of the visual vs. aural is at least as old as
Western Europeans started seriously notating music (not sure if this
would apply to any other cultures).

More to the point, I think it's silly to call visual representation
"evil" in fact. Sure, there is a danger that the visual as tool has a
detrimental influence on the music. But, it is equally true that there
are fascinating musical processes, which are only made possible, or
can only be controlled, through or with the assistance of various
visualization and abstraction procedures (whether it is traditional
notation, mathematical represesentation, or digital representation).
Some examples:
Traditional counterpoint
Any complex symphonic orchestration
Serial/post-serial musical procedures
John Cage's music and various chance procedures
generative patches created in PD, Max, or Reaktor
all DSP (not the GUI, but the code as the representation of sound)

Another example (again not from the digital domain):
Every music school has their students in, say, the jazz program, who
learn a bunch of scales off a page but can't seem to ever use their
ears and put those patterns together in a musical way. But John
Coltrane was known to practice extensively from Slominzky's Thesaurus
of Scales (which is simply an abstract representation of basic musical
building blocks), and I think everyone would agree this only enhanced
his ability to improvise.

~David

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Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:00:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] an interesting monolake answer
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I agree.. sonic artists for the most part should stick to what they do 
boest and video artists need to do the same the only truely great combos I 
have seen come from media artist who have worked with both mediums from 
day one... or when video artist and sonic artists collaberation...
but when a sonic or video artist try to do one or the other it just comes 
off for the most part as a medium that they just dont know to well and are 
just slapping it onto thier set up becasue they think they