Re: [microsound] repository

From benjamin c acree
Sent Thu, Feb 1st 2007, 03:51

I think that the idea that somehow asia has been "passed the cultural
baton" is already a banality and flatly untrue.

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Milan Davidovic wrote on 1/31/07 at 6:07 PM

>Thank goodness; do you know hard it is to hold a coffee and a muffin
>AND a cultural baton all at the same time?

Perhaps I should have said "passed the Stalin belt":

<http://i11.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/88/82/f2b4_1_b.JPG>

Best, vatic

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A discussion about style?!! Please proceed!

-Adrian

--- Brian Klein <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> what was the style of chinese gabber that someone
> mentioned a while back?


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From ???@??? Thu Feb  1 01:15:14 2007
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From: Xdugef <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
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That's beside the point... I googled there fore I am.

-Adrian

--- Charles Turner <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> Well, if you're going to use the wikipedia as the final authority,
> you
> should at least investigate their entry on Bhangra, which I wouldn't
> exactly call "indian pop" considering its rather long history as a
> folk
> music in the Punjab...


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From ???@??? Thu Feb  1 00:58:37 2007
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Xdugef wrote on 1/31/07 at 6:06 PM

>Sagoo grew up in "Birmingham, England, in a predominantly Black
>neighbourhood, influenced by disco, rap and Motown music".  So I see
>that as western influence on indian pop music.. not the other way
>around. 

Well, if you're going to use the wikipedia as the final authority, you
should at least investigate their entry on Bhangra, which I wouldn't
exactly call "indian pop" considering its rather long history as a folk
music in the Punjab...

Best, vatic

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what was the style of chinese gabber that someone
mentioned a while back?


--- Charles Turner <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> Xdugef wrote on 1/31/07 at 4:16 PM
> 
> >So can we expect to see all the hot new club hits
> to come out of india
> >and china? Maybe a new genre will emerge called
> RedChilloutAmbient?
> 
> I'd argue the cultural baton passed to Asia a long
> time ago, it's just
> that "Westerners" will be the last to know.
> 
> You might want to check out Bally Sagoo or Seo Taiji
> for a start.
> 
> Best, vatic
> 
> 
>
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> 



 
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From ???@??? Wed Jan 31 23:35:53 2007
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Ian Reddy wrote:

> My experience has been that if I look at a work of
> art I know nothing about, it still triggers connections to things I've
> experienced

sure, but are those connections where the emotions come from, or are 
they something else? When I look at a work of art I know nothing about 
there are two parallel response processes - a) emotional/ physical/ 
physiological and b) intelluctual/ philosophical. Both happen in 
parallel. I'm not sure if they normally influence each other or not, but 
my instinct says they can even if they don't always.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed


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On 1/31/07, Charles Turner <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> I'd argue the cultural baton passed to Asia a long time ago, it's just
> that "Westerners" will be the last to know.

Thank goodness; do you know hard it is to hold a coffee and a muffin
AND a cultural baton all at the same time?

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
http://www.terminus1525.ca/studio/view/2758

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--- Charles Turner <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> I'd argue the cultural baton passed to Asia a long time ago, it's
> just that "Westerners" will be the last to know.

Last to know or last to care?

> You might want to check out Bally Sagoo or Seo Taiji for a start.

What about them? I don't see how the economy's of their countries of
origin having much to do with their being talented or determined. Sagoo
grew up in "Birmingham, England, in a predominantly Black
neighbourhood, influenced by disco, rap and Motown music".  So I see
that as western influence on indian pop music.. not the other way
around. 

-Adrian



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From ???@??? Wed Jan 31 22:29:27 2007
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Xdugef wrote on 1/31/07 at 4:16 PM

>So can we expect to see all the hot new club hits to come out of india
>and china? Maybe a new genre will emerge called RedChilloutAmbient?

I'd argue the cultural baton passed to Asia a long time ago, it's just
that "Westerners" will be the last to know.

You might want to check out Bally Sagoo or Seo Taiji for a start.

Best, vatic


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From ???@??? Wed Jan 31 21:17:22 2007
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So can we expect to see all the hot new club hits to come out of india
and china? Maybe a new genre will emerge called RedChilloutAmbient?

Maybe I could hire some programmers in india to write max patches for
me so I can cash in on the new global economy?

-Adrian

"The great transnational consortiums, principal agents in the process
of integration of economic blocks, are located in those nations where
they obtain most benefits and where the salaries or government charges
are lowest, and as globalization advances, they are organized to assume

more power and dominion. In this way, multinational industries are
turned into true financial powers who enter into competition with the
economies of nations, they weaken them and destroy the means of
sustenance of marginalized and rural communities; thus, at a time when
the generation of wealth diminishes in many countries, because of
international competition, the distribution of income becomes all the
time more unequal, to the detriment of the weakest. (Roman, 2004: 45) "


--- Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> > One of the most interesting philosophers of aesthetics I've read is
> > Stefan Morawski, whose book:  _Inquiries into the Fundamentals of
> > Aesthetics_ (MIT Press, 1974) is the best english language  
> > statement of
> > his thinking.
> 
> thanks for doing this!
> also, I uploaded:
> Fibreculture Journal Issue 5.pdf
> 'Speculations on a Marxist theory of the Virtual Revolution'
> 
> for any .microsounders who might have an interest in reading it
> 
> 
> 


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> in no particular place....just a bunch of atoms, it seems.

bits are electrons or photons...not atoms...sorry, couldn't resist ;)


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--Boundary_(ID_qgXy5hfcB2NlfRvq7i9DtQ)
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> One of the most interesting philosophers of aesthetics I've read is
> Stefan Morawski, whose book:  _Inquiries into the Fundamentals of
> Aesthetics_ (MIT Press, 1974) is the best english language  
> statement of
> his thinking.

thanks for doing this!
also, I uploaded:
Fibreculture Journal Issue 5.pdf
'Speculations on a Marxist theory of the Virtual Revolution'

for any .microsounders who might have an interest in reading it


--Boundary_(ID_qgXy5hfcB2NlfRvq7i9DtQ)--

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--- Ian Reddy <xxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
> No, you can enjoy art without a point of reference.  But when do you
> ever actually do that?  My experience has been that if I look at a
> work of
> art I know nothing about, it still triggers connections to things
> I've
> experienced

Som epeople can but many people can't or won't or feel uncomfortable
and don't know what to do with themselves.

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From ???@??? Wed Jan 31 17:08:38 2007
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Okay, thanks to Beau Sievers for the link to the Logic Users site.
I'll take it from here.

And thanks everyone to your indulgence of my off-topic post. We now
return you to your regular programming...

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
http://www.terminus1525.ca/studio/view/2758

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--- jeff gburek <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > > or listen to outputs generated by authorized
> > specialists in transcendence
> > > production.
> > 
> > Who authorizes these things?
> > 
> 
> oh, dont tell him!

Where can I apply for an art license? 

I authorize the  use paragraphs every once and awhile. ;-)

-adrian


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>Is a point of reference required in order to appreciate art?  I often  
>mull this over.  I do not think that it is but the context of said  
>piece does change when an informed point of reference is present.  I  
>do think that ones perception changes when you have an informed point  
>of reference about any artwork.  Does that make it more enjoyable?  I  
>do not think so, even though that opinion contradicts my applied logic.

No, you can enjoy art without a point of reference.  But when do you
ever actually do that?  My experience has been that if I look at a work of
art I know nothing about, it still triggers connections to things I've
experienced

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>i appreciate your comemnt but i am not quite
>completely at ease with the projection concept, unless
>you view it as a two-way street. about no work of art
>being "raw emotional outburst" that confuses the
>issues of projection even further. one can very well
>create the conditions for spontaneous (what do we
>actually mean by "raw") feeling in a work of music and

by 'raw' I meat the emotion as you experience, which I don't beleive can
be transposed into words or 'transmitted' in any way.  It is internal and
wordless, to say 'I'm angry' in an angry tone of voice is a byproduct of
being angry, it is not the emotion of anger, it is an expression of anger 
mediated by language.

>maybe, owing to the possibilities of improvising,
>music is, among all the arts, uniquely capable of this
>kind of projection. anyone who has ever heard some of
>the great jazz players can tell you that there are
>moments of this music where you know that this feeling
>is of this moment and in a certain sense the emotion
>is certainly raw even though there is a structure, a

I'm unwilling to take the jazz musicians word for it that there is 'raw
emotion' in their music.  To me it seems to be a false assertion. 
I say the jazz musicians are acting out their emotions through jazz.  They
may be feeling a great enthusiasm for the music they're playing, but their
music is a byproduct of that feeling which is mediated by the cultural
form of jazz.  

>launchpad, so to speak. (drawing also has this
>capacity as well!) i suppose you would say in response
>that this is just a case where i have accepted my
>projection as reality. and yet, what is the overall
>goal of a work of music? i argue that it is to create
>this plane where emotions and thoughts come together
>in such a mingling of projections that we are inspired
>and linked together in the experience. the great works

While I don't think works of music have particualr goals I think your
statement has merit.  And I am not (or if I have...I will say that I
don't, at the point of this line of text) denying that music can provoke
emotion BUT I don't think 'emotion' is an inherent property to a work,
emotion is something that may have been felt by the artist in production
of the work, or a work may be coded to refer to certain emotions, or
perceptions of emotion may be devined from the work.  But it's not a
property of the work.



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From ???@??? Wed Jan 31 15:35:10 2007
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Is a point of reference required in order to appreciate art?  I often  
mull this over.  I do not think that it is but the context of said  
piece does change when an informed point of reference is present.  I  
do think that ones perception changes when you have an informed point  
of reference about any artwork.  Does that make it more enjoyable?  I  
do not think so, even though that opinion contradicts my applied logic.

aLEKs

On Jan 31, 2007, at 10:21 AM, Ian Reddy wrote:
>
> I think you should research heavily into Egyptian art before you  
> say it
> was made for the purpose of being beautiful.  It was not made to be
> beautiful, and was largely made (as was most ancient art) for  
> ritual or
> religious purposes.  Personally I doubt the existance of 'universal  
> art'
> (although I'm not sure what is meant by that) but if it's simply  
> art you
> and your friend find to be beautiful without knowing about it then I'm
> sure universal art abounds.
>
>
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From ???@??? Wed Jan 31 15:21:24 2007
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>> Beauty is, I believe, a cultural or personal value. 
>
>I was talking about whether art is universal with my other friend the 
>other day. There's an exhibition of Egyptian relics currently on in the 
>museum, and she was using it as proof of the existence of universal art: 
>it had been made for the purpose of being beautiful, and beautiful was 
>how she found it, despite knowing almost nothing about Egyptian culture 
>or what the Egyptian way of life would have been.

I think you should research heavily into Egyptian art before you say it
was made for the purpose of being beautiful.  It was not made to be
beautiful, and was largely made (as was most ancient art) for ritual or
religious purposes.  Personally I doubt the existance of 'universal art'
(although I'm not sure what is meant by that) but if it's simply art you
and your friend find to be beautiful without knowing about it then I'm
sure universal art abounds.
  

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>> Ian Reddy wrote:
>>  > Also certain sounds are
>> > culturally constructed as being connected to certain emotions (such
>> as the
>> > connection of low droning sounds to feelings of gloom) 
>
>Explain more about the cultural construction that connects low droning
>sounds to a feeling either gloom or otherwise?

Just consider the fact that ambient music which features low droning
sounds is often referred to as 'dark ambient' when darkness is not
an inherent property of the music.  Darkness is, in turn, associated with
negative feelings (as well as a number of other things in some 
fairly well known binaries, light/dark is analogous to good/evil, 
happy/sad, intelligence/ignorance etc.)  So these connections form 
between things that aren't inherently connected, and they form through 
language and culture.  And that's how sounds become connected to
emotions I think.  

You are not obligated to invest into these connections,
of course, and therefore it's reasonable that one wouldn't necessarily
think of low drones as being connected to any emotions or anything in
particular.

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in the case of the egyptians or fetishes we must think
of beauty as not only a relation to surfaces but to
the utility of the object. tomb art is designed to
assist passage to another world or to keep the dead
happy being dead and not have them bother us! in a
curious twist of meanings, i began to rethink the
realm of the dead as being capitalistic reality and
all the beautiful objects which keep us placated here
as being quite similar to these mummified cats and
monkeys you see in and around sarcophagii (which means
"corpse eaters"). our body in capitalism is made of
time. we are consumers of time more than anything
else.

--jeff gburek

--- Xdugef <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> 
> --- Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
> >There's an exhibition of Egyptian relics currently
> on in
> > the 
> > museum, and she was using it as proof of the
> existence of universal
> > art: 
> > it had been made for the purpose of being
> beautiful, and beautiful
> > was 
> > how she found it, despite knowing almost nothing
> about Egyptian
> > culture 
> > or what the Egyptian way of life would have been.
> 
> Hmm.... fetishes have been around since the dawn of
> mankind... the
> simple fact that someone obviously spent a great of
> time and effort
> inspires curiousity, awe and an appreciation of the
> skill and labour
> involved... I beleive this can exist otuside of any
> cultural
> boundaries. 
> 
> I don't agree that those items were made simply to
> be beautiful
> either.. unless in this case you consider a tomb to
> be the same as a
> gallery. 
> 
> -Adrian
> 
> 
>
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j.ff gbk

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> 
>  > Also certain sounds are
> > culturally constructed as being connected to
> certain emotions (such as the
> > connection of low droning sounds to feelings of
> gloom) 
> 
> I find low droning sounds connected to feelings of
> calm, solidarity, 
> stability, and a resting place, especially when
> they're accompanied by a 
> bit of white noise, for example in large-scale
> air-conditioning systems. 
> (Air-con can make beautiful, beautiful noises). It's
> only when they're 
> dissonant that they're gloomy. 

 this is also mind-blowing. i am often dealing with
this very discrepnancy over what drones "signify" for
people...a friend recently did a compare contrast
doing extreme nosie drones and placing tracks of
acoustic tamboura drones and harmonium next to them.
the volume level is often the only thing that makes
for the tension we might associate with the dissonant
drone as opposed to the harmonized one. but arent all
drones in a sense harmonized? even if the intervals
are not standard pitch intervals it is their constant
relation to one another that gives it the quality of
drone?

-jg


> 
> -- 
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
> 
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed
> 
> 
>
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j.ff gbk

http://www.futurevessel.com/orphansound/

http://www.mattin.org/desetxea.html

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Subject: Re: [microsound] miles of styles of philosophes
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yes, i find sense of wonder related to beauty...but
beauty has been destroyed, related to the deceptive,
the bearer of illusions...so that we can only invoke
beauty if we are going to deal with something that is
almost its opposite

--jg
--- Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> David Powers wrote:
> 
> > Emotion only exists in terms of probability. You
> can encode a set of
> > gestures into a piece of music, that (given a
> culturally homogenous
> > group with known conditioning) has a high
> probability of provoking an
> > emotional response. However, if you played the
> music for someone who
> > lacked the relevant cultural context and
> conditioning, there would be
> > no emotional response.
> 
> Does this mean there is no such thing as universal
> art?
> 
> ... Is the experience of beauty an emotion? I
> believe it is, but I was 
> having an interesting discussion with my flatmate
> the other morning 
> where she was saying that she didn't think that it
> was.
> 
> I wonder if that means that in order to describe
> microsound as 
> 'emotional' one has to broaden one's idea about what
> an emotion is. 
> Defenders of scifi writing are sometimes in the same
> boat, finding 
> themselves having to argue that sense-of-wonder is
> an emotion, just to 
> counter claims that scifi is unemotional.
> 
> -- 
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
> 
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed
> 
> 
>
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j.ff gbk

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the problem of transcendance is always what you do
afterwards! my experience of this kind of social
activity was before techno and raves. and it was on
the burning shores of california where it was
happening. i think not instutions but the overall
cultural vibe is what gives rise to these
possibilities. what existed in the eighties in the bay
area is quite different than what we see now. more
parallel is the berlin i live in now where the  war
destruction, partition of the city and the slow
economic development has left these strange unused
architectural spaces and people disenchanted with the
mainstream can make some of their dreams come true
there. but we are at the tailend of it i think. there
are always discussions about noise complaints here
now. the need to sleep is big problem. (that also is a
form of transcendance!). i think the strangest
experience of transcendance i had recently in berlin
was when a theater group did a piece on prohibition
and then had 20's era party with a dj spinning only
78's. it was certainly problemmatic for the american
(me) to see these whities dancing around to big band
music when i am aware of the politics of black and
white in that era. but nevertheless, they managed to
run the thing for two whole months twice a week and it
was packed always until the wee hours, i myself being
under the spell and often not leaving until 5:30 am. i
am curious why, because many of them where people in
their twenties (so it is a numeric thing,hmmm). it was
really a place out of time (and yet in time fixed, by
its vestigial cultural trappings). it is in such a
sphere that one encounters the ghosts of our cultures.
the symbol of the american big band and its reception
by the germans in the era of the nazis. the music of
our genetic forebears. when death was probable and
life needed to be now?

best, jeff gburek
--- Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> Stephen Hastings-King wrote:
> 
>  > the business of
> > transcendence is one undertaken by authorized
> specialists in transcendence
> > production.  there are special buildings around
> where you can go to look at
> > or listen to outputs generated by authorized
> specialists in transcendence
> > production.  
> 
> I'm currently undergoing an intense period of
> research into techno music 
> (of the Detroit/New York/Chicago variety) and these
> sentences resonate 
> strongly with the construction of the techno gig and
> the role of the DJ 
> therein. I'm also helping organise a techno party
> which happens in two 
> weeks and we find ourselves having discussions about
> how to bring about 
> this production of transcendance through the
> production of the party.
> 
> Interesting...
> 
> -- 
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
> 
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed
> 
> 
>
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> 


j.ff gbk

http://www.futurevessel.com/orphansound/

http://www.mattin.org/desetxea.html

http://www.djalma.com


 
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From: Philippe Petit <xxxxxxxx-xxxxx@xxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: [Microsound-announce] BiP_HOp Generation : January playlist
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BiP_HOp Generation on Radio Grenouille  //  88.8 FM
Wednesday evenings  : 19:00 - 20:30 PM  //  Marseille  //  France

January 2007 Playlist

  ARTIST      ALBUM     label
Barry Adamson : stranger on the sofa (Central Control International)
Alexandra Gardner : luminoso (Innova)
Sybarite : cut out shape (Temporary Residence)
Salvatore : days of rage (Racing Junior)
Rothko : a personal account of conflict (Badhand)
Illachime Quartet : s/t (Illachime)
Lawrence english : for varying degrees of winter (Baskaru)
Häuschka : room to expand (Fat Cat)
Trentemoller : the last resort (Poker Flat)
Panda Bear : bro's (FatCat)
W.A.S. : groove-je? (Label Bleu)
Animal Collective : people (Fat Cat)
(r) : under the cables, into the wind (Important)
Ulrike Haage : weisses land (Content)
Jeremy Warmsley : the art of fiction (Transgressive)
Coem : move/the mountain (Kinky Star)
Ascoltare : visceral vendor (Tripel)
Angelo Petronella : sintesi da un dario (Die Schachtel)
Urawa : parable of the driver (Divine Comedy)
Clara Rockmore : lost theremin album (Bridge)
Prima Donkey : rythme exotique (Radical Duke)
Dosh : the lost take (Anticon)
Chris Watson - BJ Nilsen : storm (Touch)
Inch-Time : as the moon draws water (Static Caravan)
VA. Blueprints (12K)
John Wiese : magical crystal blah v.3 (Kitty Play)
VA. Traumzeit (Traumton)
Reuber : südpol (Staubgold)
Thomas Leer : parts of a greater hole (Karvavena)
Par Lammers Trio : all die bunten schafe (Traumton)
Christa Pfangen : watch me getting back the end (Die Schachtel)
Julie Sokolow : something about violins (Western Vinyl)
VA. snappy turns (Tomlab)
Tellaro : setback on the right track (2nd Rec)
Hella : there is no 666 in outer space (Ipecac)


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> > or listen to outputs generated by authorized
> specialists in transcendence
> > production.
> 
> Who authorizes these things?
> 

oh, dont tell him!

j.ff gbk

http://www.futurevessel.com/orphansound/

http://www.mattin.org/desetxea.html

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david, of course there is no way to "insert" emotions
into the body of the audience members. but, to take it
from the pint of view of theater, the evolution of
radical theater is partcularly useful to think about
in this context. particukarly polish theater,
developing a certain kind of guardedness concerning
the role of language or direct statement and putting
the responsibilty of the actors to become vessels for
a feeling or a form of thought that, owing to
repressive condtions, had to go partly unspoken. i
still have the feeling that this is quite essential to
creating certain kinds of work, although not every
work of art needs to adopt such principles. in a
certain way, as when pasolini spoke about each film
"reinventing" cinema, works have need to find a
plateau wherein they particpate in something actually
more archaic, to bring the origin forward so to speak.
there are degress to which i feel personally
disinterested in those kinds of theater that have
tried to "simulate" the so-called "dromenon" of the
greeks. and greek avant-garde music is filled with
this tendency too which, by and large, i find myself
before an off-putting kind of massive block that is
saying "HERE IS THIS EMOTION FEEL IT OR DIE". i think
of christou's work as being peculiarly free of this
overblown sentiment and when you hear the cacophony he
creates i get a sense of propulsion into emotional
territories that ask large questions. in a culture of
overkill, more sensitive people can find a feeling in
understatement. but the emotion particular to
microsound i find to be quite another story. there is
an emotional range that is interesting but, as has
been pointed out, if there are no words, it is more
likely that one experiences maybe a freedom from
emotions, a sense of clearing and possibility. we need
this feeling of course. but it is not the only thing
that needs expressing.
--- David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> On 1/30/07, Ian Reddy <xxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx>
> wrote:
> > I think that in art, emotion is something either
> projected
> > onto the work or it is something acted out by the
> performer.
> > No work of art is a raw emotional outburst -
> that's impossible
> > as art and music are obviously mediated through
> the intellect
> > and already existing cultural forms.
> 
> Yes, I was hoping someone would point this out,
> thank you!
> 
> As I have insisted in the past, I  must once again
> point out how
> flawed I think the model of communication is, that
> implies that a
> creator is able to directly insert an emotion into a
> piece. This is
> impossible - emotion is a chemical response in the
> individual to
> various stimuli. The work of art is not a container.
> If an actor in a
> play is angry onstage, and starts screaming, it
> doesn't make me angry.
> 
> Emotion only exists in terms of probability. You can
> encode a set of
> gestures into a piece of music, that (given a
> culturally homogenous
> group with known conditioning) has a high
> probability of provoking an
> emotional response. However, if you played the music
> for someone who
> lacked the relevant cultural context and
> conditioning, there would be
> no emotional response.
> 
> Note that attempting to specifically provoke
> emotional responses is an
> aesthetic choice on the part of the creator.
> Alternately, creator can
> design artistic pieces using very minimal grammars
> and avoiding
> linguistic elements that provoke obvious responses.
> Such artwork may
> appear more cerebral to the average observer -
> though there is still
> the possibility that by virtue of its construction
> and the particular
> mindset and manner of observation, the artwork will
> nevertheless
> provoke an emotional response.
> 
> Finally, words are intimately connected with power
> and control. The
> level of conditioned response to language is high,
> so it's likely that
> lyric-based music does have a higher probability of
> provoking an
> emotional response in observers that can interpret
> the linguistic
> statements correctly (ie. you must know the language
> being used).
> 
> ~David
> 
>
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j.ff gbk

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From ???@??? Wed Jan 31 13:08:50 2007
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From: jeff gburek <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] miles of styles of philosophes
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stephen, your thinking is, as usual, very dense and
quite interesting to me. and i know you have given
time to the questions of improvisation, so if you can
indulge a sense of immediacy, can i not also say that
we indulge the structures of society with a similar
shrug of suspicion? one of the reasons i have chosen
to work outside the frameworks of institutions is of
course to address them with the important reference to
something they have displaced themselves upon. this is
done perhaps with a sense of naivety that i find
implicit in the structures themselves. as i have been
working on themes of medieval mystics, i am reading a
book, in italian, but i believe it is written in
english, called la santa anoressia, by a man named
bell. in this context, the religious experience is
recast, in the analysis of interpreting the psychology
of the eating habits of some of these woman saints, as
a struggle for personal autonomy. here i see perfect
accordance with your theories of the dependancy of the
existing social and political context driving a kind
of behaviour pattern towards a personal compromise
with the repressive powers that allows one a freedom
to influence the world. the case of catherine of siena
as best example. but the plane on which these things
were done is very different from our own. in her case
she developed her behaviours with the support of
institutionalized mystical experience which, owing to
the perceptions of heresy, were nevertheless very
dangerous. but perhaps the sense of danger is the one
that is most important to refer to in terms of the
institutions. for what a great work is going to
achieve is going to be pushing the way we think to
extremes that must seem dangerous. (think in the
modern context of berg's wozzeck and the fragmets of
buechner they are based upon, listen to what this work
says about the world, poverty etc.) the danger is that
we create something that is incoherent and it will not
be recieved by society. the despair that accompanies
it is that one has not "done anything". whereas, there
is another level of personal reception where one can
feel the work transmits what is neccessary through
those few people who are capable of recieving it. most
artists will work only in this way the whole of their
lives. you will probably never hear my music. but my
music has had an effect on people. there are too many
people and in the end too many structures in the world
for an artist to be bound by and in the end one has to
deal with only those that prevent the work from going
on. often i have the feeling of a big truth: the
institutions are not aware of the reality of
obscurity. this obsucrity and anonymity are the
primary conditions of humanity. a great work must take
them into consideration.

best, jeff gburek
  
--- Stephen Hastings-King <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> projections involve responses shaped by
> (social-historical) rule sets (or
> institutions).
> these rules range from genre outward to quite broad
> social matters.
> any response to any cultural object involves rules.
> questions concerning the origin, nature,
> institutional enframedness,
> legitimacy and binding nature of these rules are all
> political.
> so it follows that the most useful ways to stage
> these questions may well be
> found in political philosophy--or in philosophy more
> generally---and not in
> discussions too narrowly focused on directly musical
> questions--or on
> aesthetic philosophy.  aesthetics is a subset of
> larger-scale normative
> frameworks.  it is not a free-floating area of
> thought.  aesthetic
> philosophy is among the densest type of ideological
> thinking: existing
> social norms are most thoroughly in force around
> definitions of that which
> transcends them.  transcendence needs to be
> controlled, quarantined, placed
> socially and politically in authorized spaces.  the
> business of
> transcendence is one undertaken by authorized
> specialists in transcendence
> production.  there are special buildings around
> where you can go to look at
> or listen to outputs generated by authorized
> specialists in transcendence
> production.  while you are visiting, you can have a
> Moment during which you
> loose yourself.  this sense of loss of oneself is
> not one of freedom from
> instituted social norms: it is a total projection
> through those norms: you
> presuppose them in the act of forgetting about them.
> 
> while i think that the only coherent relation to the
> marxist tradition at
> this point has to be predicated on closure (in the
> decon/heidegger/nietzsche
> sense, in the "closure of western metaphysics"
> sense)--anything that enables
> folk to relativize their social position and by
> extension to relativise
> their responses is a good thing.  because it is only
> in relativizing your
> responses that you can start to see the structures
> that shape those
> responses.  these structures are indices of what
> binds you to what exists,
> of the extent to which you reproduce it, the extent
> to which you are it.
> it is good, i think, to be suspicous of immediacy. 
> it is also good not to
> loose the ability to indulge immediacy.  but it is
> good to be suspicious of
> it.
> 
> stephen
> 
> On 1/30/07, Ian Reddy <xxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx>
> wrote:
> >
> > >one thing about certain kinds of sound, when they
> hit
> > >you, when you are alone, for example, this
> perosnal
> > >experience, when you hear something cool, that
> you
> > >dont hear any hype about beforehand, and it
> creates
> > >this separation from alienation, this curiously
> > >numinous bubble, albeit momentary, until someone
> else
> > >says, oh, you're listening to that, didnt you
> hear the
> > >really great first album, or someone say its crap
> and
> > >you no longer feel intimate with it even if you
> dont
> > >care what someone else thinks. what the blogger
> guy
> > >says makes sense in terms of emotional range
> only. is
> > >all digital music in a sense governed by an irony
> > >(related to a high level of self-consciousness)
> that
> > >doesnt allow for the feelings such as joni
> mitchell
> > >might sing about? does the full range of human
> emotion
> > >demand words or demand the discarding of words?
> > >anyway, its about your own fantasy formations,
> your
> > >wildest imaginations, isnt it. what you desire.
> >
> > I think that in art, emotion is something either
> projected
> > onto the work or it is something acted out by the
> performer.
> > No work of art is a raw emotional outburst -
> that's impossible
> > as art and music are obviously mediated through
> the intellect
> > and already existing cultural forms.  I suggest
> that Joni Mitchel is
> > performing her emotions through song.  Also
> certain sounds are
> > culturally constructed as being connected to
> certain emotions (such as the
> > connection of low droning sounds to feelings of
> gloom) and the artist
> > often exploits these connections or we simply
> project them onto a
> > work.  So....in brief I do think that art can
> provoke an emotional
> > response BUT I also think the emotion we
> experience is drastically
> > different from the emotion we speak of as being
> present in art, and
> > probably not the same thing at all.
> >
> >
> >
>
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> >
> >
> 


j.ff gbk

http://www.futurevessel.com/orphansound/

http://www.mattin.org/desetxea.html

http://www.djalma.com


 
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From ???@??? Wed Jan 31 07:27:11 2007
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Hi Milan,

Milan Davidovic wrote:
> So, it's like this: I've come into possession of an old version of
> Logic. The disc is for Mac and Windows, but the dongle is only for
> Mac. I've got an old Windows machine.
> 
> I'm thinking "ADB to RS-232 adapter", but my initial Google searches
> suggest that such a thing may not exist.
> 
> Options?
sell it on ebay...

sorry,

Peter


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From ???@??? Wed Jan 31 08:08:19 2007
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Subject: Re: [microsound] miles of styles of philosophes
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Stephen Hastings-King wrote (albeit snipped a bit):

>digits just turn.  stuff happens.  it falls into a void.

A pure, elegant piece of philosophy, free of all pretension and 
intellectual wanking - quite possibly all the philosophy anyone ever 
needs to know.

R.




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From ???@??? Wed Jan 31 02:48:42 2007
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First, apologies for the OT question -- I'm not subscribed to anything
else where i could ask this.
Second, this might make you laugh; go ahead, I can take it.

So, it's like this: I've come into possession of an old version of
Logic. The disc is for Mac and Windows, but the dongle is only for
Mac. I've got an old Windows machine.

I'm thinking "ADB to RS-232 adapter", but my initial Google searches
suggest that such a thing may not exist.

Options?

Many thanks...

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
http://www.terminus1525.ca/studio/view/2758

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--Boundary_(ID_cjSlk67nc3EQSlreztweDA)
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 adrian:

i dont see any particular limits to what is discussed that can be drawn
using microsound as a placeholder.
i just dont. so far as i am concerned at any rate, microsound--whatever that
means, really--is like any other type of cultural work, operating in the
same context, subject to the same contradictions and problems as any other.

the public/private question refers most directly to an ongoing debate in 3-d
land: it has to do with whether one should or must bring one's work out, and
whether there are claims about that work that follow from bringing it
out--like whether it is art, whether the producer is an artist, that kind of
thing.  i am not sure that this is of any interest to anyone so i'll leave
it at that for now.

"the great conversation" is an academic cliche.  it refers to the
intertextual networks one can work out and play with amongst the text-traces
left by the sequence of legitimate Figures who constitute a tradition.  folk
act as though these Figures are Legitimate because of the quality of their
work, which implies that cultural markets are rational.  of course, they
aren't and the story behind the legitimation of any particular figure has as
much or more to do with the mass of commentary that builds up around them,
and with the relations of cultural power that play out across commentary.

the internet doesnt really resolve problems of bringing your work out.  you
can post it, people can download it, sure: but it is a funny kind of public,
isn't it?  in no particular place....just a bunch of atoms, it seems. when
the collective i am part of is active, we publicize new stuff and get a
couple thousand hits a month.  we are not entirely sure what any of them
mean, and we have no idea who these folk are or where they are or even if
they are.  digits just turn.  stuff happens.  it falls into a void.   there
is no press-like apparatus that classifies/sorts online releases, so there
is no structuring of a wide public for this kind of music (whatever that may
be)...and the sad fact of the matter is that it is the
classification/sorting that is the fundamental act of cultural construction
in the context through which we move.  people seem to want what they are
told they want.  of course, there are folk who operate off that radar and
trawl about for music that others dont know about, which is fine--but that
is still an act with sociological correlates.  around this point, i
generally make some reference to bourdieu.  when i do it, i usually feel
like "fuck, what an academic geek i have become." (as i do right now.  this
works every time.)


abstraction.
well, the cynic in me reverts to bourdieu again, who argues that the
tolerance for abstraction in art is a class thing, linked to a desire to
demonstrate one's distance from necessity which increases as you move up the
class gradient.
but that is general.
i dont know what you mean by abstraction.  i refers to many things, many
types of operations.  soundwise, i have found that folk refer to types of
organization that they are not familiar with as abstract--it is a kind of
default category that lets them say something other than "what the fuck was
that?" or "i didnt get it" or---more to the point--"i didnt like it,
whatever it was."--which is fine, but it doesnt tell me much.  so what do
you mean by it?

stephen
--Boundary_(ID_cjSlk67nc3EQSlreztweDA)--

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--- Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
>There's an exhibition of Egyptian relics currently on in
> the 
> museum, and she was using it as proof of the existence of universal
> art: 
> it had been made for the purpose of being beautiful, and beautiful
> was 
> how she found it, despite knowing almost nothing about Egyptian
> culture 
> or what the Egyptian way of life would have been.

Hmm.... fetishes have been around since the dawn of mankind... the
simple fact that someone obviously spent a great of time and effort
inspires curiousity, awe and an appreciation of the skill and labour
involved... I beleive this can exist otuside of any cultural
boundaries. 

I don't agree that those items were made simply to be beautiful
either.. unless in this case you consider a tomb to be the same as a
gallery. 

-Adrian


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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 23:49:21 2007
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David Powers wrote:

> Beauty is, I believe, a cultural or personal value. 

I was talking about whether art is universal with my other friend the 
other day. There's an exhibition of Egyptian relics currently on in the 
museum, and she was using it as proof of the existence of universal art: 
it had been made for the purpose of being beautiful, and beautiful was 
how she found it, despite knowing almost nothing about Egyptian culture 
or what the Egyptian way of life would have been.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed


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--- Stephen Hastings-King <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> afternoon better mood let's see.
> which buildings?
> why any number of those official respositories for the material you
> can
> collage together to form the "Great Conversation" within a particular
> genre--museyrooms galleries--clubs concert halls--all the spaces
> about which
> i cant help but be ambivalent--on the one hand, it's good to be able
> to see
> and listen to stuff--on the other, the sense of quarantine, of
> separation:
> from the processes that go into making things, from the aspects of
> social
> life from which they come, about which they speak (one way or
> another)
> toward which they are addressed.  the Reification Biz.

Okay well in regards to my experiencing microsound.. it's almost
entirely at home via the internet wether downloaded or purchased
online.. 

"Great Conversation"? 


> who authorizes?
> well at one level anyone who makes stuff authorizes themselves to
> engage a
> medium, the genres that operate, the traditions that structure each
> genre.
> but anyone who makes stuff also knows that this self-authorization,
> while
> necessary, only goes so far if you want to make your work public.  to
> what
> end make your work public?  any number of reasons.  but if you do
> want to
> make your work public, it becomes quickly obvious that there are any
> number
> of intermediaries who occupy positions of cultural power by
> generating
> classifications, who construct producers by situating them through
> classification, who stream outputs toward or away from their
> audience.
> record labels, critics, radio folk, academics...and on the other
> side, those
> who control access to the special buildings within which the
> Authorized
> Objects of the moment are displayed/encountered.
> within aesthetic theory, in the end, it is the theorist who
> authorizes.
> this authorization is not neutral: it generally relies one way or
> another on
> the accepted canon of Legitimate Producers which happens to be in
> force at a
> given period.
> this seems to me neither good nor bad in itself: just the way of
> things.
> if you want your work to become public that is.
> if you dont, for whatever reason, then none of this applies directly.
> but if your work is not public, then what is it?
> i dont know the answer to that.  i suspect there are many.

The internet. It used to be that if you wanted to make your work public
is was alot harder to do but now you can easily make yur work public
tot he entire world very cheaply with little effort.

Wether public or private is there any issues to do with any of this
that is specific to "microsound"?


> i dont really know what being a marxist means at this point.

Neither do I.

> variation:
> emotional responses to cultural objects is not unstructured.  you
> dont get
> around political questions by referring to immediacy.  immediacy is a
> kind
> of forgetting of these problems.  that is why i said what i did about
> relativizing your responses.  there are always rules that shape your
> reactions to what you encounter: there is no space outside.  so the
> important issue, it seems to me anyway, is your relation to them.

I think I can agree to all of that but when you say cultural objects I
don't know how well that fits into abstraction or microsound. In
regards to visual arts and especially in the realm of computer graphics
I have encountered alot of resistance to abstraction. Perhaps that is
because there may no or very little cultural reference or recognizable
objects. I see the same issue being for music that does not beats or
lyrics or traditonal scales and tones.

Like the computer geek generation might like granular synthesis because
it reminds them of the sound of a modem while grandpa can't stand
anything but Lawrence Welk.

Which political questions did you have in mind?

-Adrian

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Damian Stewart wrote on 1/30/07 at 5:51 PM

>.... Is the experience of beauty an emotion?

Google "aesthetic emotion" whydontcha...

<xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>

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On 1/30/07, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> Does this mean there is no such thing as universal art?
>
> ... Is the experience of beauty an emotion? I believe it is, but I was
> having an interesting discussion with my flatmate the other morning
> where she was saying that she didn't think that it was.

One possible answer is that there could be universal art, but ONLY
under the condition that one attempts to work with a "context free"
type of grammar, and remove all emotional and cultural content.  In
fact, this is precisely what the Constructivist tradition in European
art attempted to do (which also has a strong connection with elements
of the socialist tradition, fyi...).

Beauty is, I believe, a cultural or personal value. To declare
something beautiful, for me implies more of an intellectual judgement
than an emotional response. This is so, because emotional responses
depend on too many external factors to be available consistently, but
the aesthetic judgements may remain consistent despite fluctuating
emotions. To illustrate my point: I believe that most trees are
beautiful, however, I don't feel an emotional response every time I
look at trees. Many days I'm too busy and stressed out to appreciate
them, and to observe them in an aesthetic manner.

~David

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--Boundary_(ID_UuA/5imn1TF+uPz5B9wLdQ)
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afternoon better mood let's see.
which buildings?
why any number of those official respositories for the material you can
collage together to form the "Great Conversation" within a particular
genre--museyrooms galleries--clubs concert halls--all the spaces about which
i cant help but be ambivalent--on the one hand, it's good to be able to see
and listen to stuff--on the other, the sense of quarantine, of separation:
from the processes that go into making things, from the aspects of social
life from which they come, about which they speak (one way or another)
toward which they are addressed.  the Reification Biz.

who authorizes?
well at one level anyone who makes stuff authorizes themselves to engage a
medium, the genres that operate, the traditions that structure each genre.
but anyone who makes stuff also knows that this self-authorization, while
necessary, only goes so far if you want to make your work public.  to what
end make your work public?  any number of reasons.  but if you do want to
make your work public, it becomes quickly obvious that there are any number
of intermediaries who occupy positions of cultural power by generating
classifications, who construct producers by situating them through
classification, who stream outputs toward or away from their audience.
record labels, critics, radio folk, academics...and on the other side, those
who control access to the special buildings within which the Authorized
Objects of the moment are displayed/encountered.
within aesthetic theory, in the end, it is the theorist who authorizes.
this authorization is not neutral: it generally relies one way or another on
the accepted canon of Legitimate Producers which happens to be in force at a
given period.
this seems to me neither good nor bad in itself: just the way of things.
if you want your work to become public that is.
if you dont, for whatever reason, then none of this applies directly.
but if your work is not public, then what is it?
i dont know the answer to that.  i suspect there are many.

answer questions?
sure.  if i can.

you dont need to be a marxist to use marxian styles of analysis:
agreed.  i dont really know what being a marxist means at this point.  but i
do find alot about the modes of analysis within the marxist tradition to be
useful, powerful even.  but you have to be critical about them too.  it is
not, and never was, a space outside the capitalist order that it opposed.

variation:
emotional responses to cultural objects is not unstructured.  you dont get
around political questions by referring to immediacy.  immediacy is a kind
of forgetting of these problems.  that is why i said what i did about
relativizing your responses.  there are always rules that shape your
reactions to what you encounter: there is no space outside.  so the
important issue, it seems to me anyway, is your relation to them.

stephen
--Boundary_(ID_UuA/5imn1TF+uPz5B9wLdQ)--

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--- Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> Ian Reddy wrote:
>  > Also certain sounds are
> > culturally constructed as being connected to certain emotions (such
> as the
> > connection of low droning sounds to feelings of gloom) 

Explain more about the cultural construction that connects low droning
sounds to a feeling either gloom or otherwise?


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--- Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
> Does this mean there is no such thing as universal art?
> 
> ... Is the experience of beauty an emotion? I believe it is, but I
> was 
> having an interesting discussion with my flatmate the other morning 
> where she was saying that she didn't think that it was.

I beleive there might be universal art.. at least amongst us humans on
earth but these also revolve around lowest common denominators. But
breasts for example may only have acheived that status because of them
being stuck in our faces during infancy.

Desire is an emotion which seems to me to be the foundation of ideals
formed from such common denominators.

-Adrian

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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 22:54:48 2007
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Ian Reddy wrote:

> I think that in art, emotion is something either projected
> onto the work or it is something acted out by the performer.

Is the experience of beauty an emotion?

 > Also certain sounds are
> culturally constructed as being connected to certain emotions (such as the
> connection of low droning sounds to feelings of gloom) 

I find low droning sounds connected to feelings of calm, solidarity, 
stability, and a resting place, especially when they're accompanied by a 
bit of white noise, for example in large-scale air-conditioning systems. 
(Air-con can make beautiful, beautiful noises). It's only when they're 
dissonant that they're gloomy...

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed


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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 22:51:34 2007
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David Powers wrote:

> Emotion only exists in terms of probability. You can encode a set of
> gestures into a piece of music, that (given a culturally homogenous
> group with known conditioning) has a high probability of provoking an
> emotional response. However, if you played the music for someone who
> lacked the relevant cultural context and conditioning, there would be
> no emotional response.

Does this mean there is no such thing as universal art?

.... Is the experience of beauty an emotion? I believe it is, but I was 
having an interesting discussion with my flatmate the other morning 
where she was saying that she didn't think that it was.

I wonder if that means that in order to describe microsound as 
'emotional' one has to broaden one's idea about what an emotion is. 
Defenders of scifi writing are sometimes in the same boat, finding 
themselves having to argue that sense-of-wonder is an emotion, just to 
counter claims that scifi is unemotional.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 22:20:03 2007
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Stephen Hastings-King wrote:

 > the business of
> transcendence is one undertaken by authorized specialists in transcendence
> production.  there are special buildings around where you can go to look at
> or listen to outputs generated by authorized specialists in transcendence
> production.  

I'm currently undergoing an intense period of research into techno music 
(of the Detroit/New York/Chicago variety) and these sentences resonate 
strongly with the construction of the techno gig and the role of the DJ 
therein. I'm also helping organise a techno party which happens in two 
weeks and we find ourselves having discussions about how to bring about 
this production of transcendance through the production of the party.

Interesting...

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
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--- Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> Who authorizes these things?

For realz...

> What about the use of marxian dialectics to analyze a system or
> structure? You need not be a marxist to use Marx.

I'd rather not but as long as the person using it is willing to answer
questions then why not.

-adrian

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On 1/30/07, Stephen Hastings-King <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> transcendence needs to be controlled, quarantined, placed
> socially and politically in authorized spaces.  the business of
> transcendence is one undertaken by authorized specialists in transcendence
> production.  there are special buildings around where you can go to look at
> or listen to outputs generated by authorized specialists in transcendence
> production.

Who authorizes these things?

> while i think that the only coherent relation to the marxist tradition at
> this point has to be predicated on closure (in the decon/heidegger/nietzsche
> sense, in the "closure of western metaphysics" sense)--anything that enables
> folk to relativize their social position and by extension to relativise
> their responses is a good thing.

What about the use of marxian dialectics to analyze a system or
structure? You need not be a marxist to use Marx.

~Kyle

-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

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On 1/30/07, Ian Reddy <xxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
> I think that in art, emotion is something either projected
> onto the work or it is something acted out by the performer.
> No work of art is a raw emotional outburst - that's impossible
> as art and music are obviously mediated through the intellect
> and already existing cultural forms.

Yes, I was hoping someone would point this out, thank you!

As I have insisted in the past, I  must once again point out how
flawed I think the model of communication is, that implies that a
creator is able to directly insert an emotion into a piece. This is
impossible - emotion is a chemical response in the individual to
various stimuli. The work of art is not a container. If an actor in a
play is angry onstage, and starts screaming, it doesn't make me angry.

Emotion only exists in terms of probability. You can encode a set of
gestures into a piece of music, that (given a culturally homogenous
group with known conditioning) has a high probability of provoking an
emotional response. However, if you played the music for someone who
lacked the relevant cultural context and conditioning, there would be
no emotional response.

Note that attempting to specifically provoke emotional responses is an
aesthetic choice on the part of the creator. Alternately, creator can
design artistic pieces using very minimal grammars and avoiding
linguistic elements that provoke obvious responses. Such artwork may
appear more cerebral to the average observer - though there is still
the possibility that by virtue of its construction and the particular
mindset and manner of observation, the artwork will nevertheless
provoke an emotional response.

Finally, words are intimately connected with power and control. The
level of conditioned response to language is high, so it's likely that
lyric-based music does have a higher probability of provoking an
emotional response in observers that can interpret the linguistic
statements correctly (ie. you must know the language being used).

~David

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Are you describing movie theatres?? What? what?

--- Stephen Hastings-King <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> social norms are most thoroughly in force around definitions of that
> which
> transcends them.  transcendence needs to be controlled, quarantined,
> placed
> socially and politically in authorized spaces.  the business of
> transcendence is one undertaken by authorized specialists in
> transcendence
> production.  there are special buildings around where you can go to
> look at
> or listen to outputs generated by authorized specialists in
> transcendence
> production.  while you are visiting, you can have a Moment during
> which you
> loose yourself.  

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--Boundary_(ID_tG5rXMD0g+3fKnlUbyFK5g)
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projections involve responses shaped by (social-historical) rule sets (or
institutions).
these rules range from genre outward to quite broad social matters.
any response to any cultural object involves rules.
questions concerning the origin, nature, institutional enframedness,
legitimacy and binding nature of these rules are all political.
so it follows that the most useful ways to stage these questions may well be
found in political philosophy--or in philosophy more generally---and not in
discussions too narrowly focused on directly musical questions--or on
aesthetic philosophy.  aesthetics is a subset of larger-scale normative
frameworks.  it is not a free-floating area of thought.  aesthetic
philosophy is among the densest type of ideological thinking: existing
social norms are most thoroughly in force around definitions of that which
transcends them.  transcendence needs to be controlled, quarantined, placed
socially and politically in authorized spaces.  the business of
transcendence is one undertaken by authorized specialists in transcendence
production.  there are special buildings around where you can go to look at
or listen to outputs generated by authorized specialists in transcendence
production.  while you are visiting, you can have a Moment during which you
loose yourself.  this sense of loss of oneself is not one of freedom from
instituted social norms: it is a total projection through those norms: you
presuppose them in the act of forgetting about them.

while i think that the only coherent relation to the marxist tradition at
this point has to be predicated on closure (in the decon/heidegger/nietzsche
sense, in the "closure of western metaphysics" sense)--anything that enables
folk to relativize their social position and by extension to relativise
their responses is a good thing.  because it is only in relativizing your
responses that you can start to see the structures that shape those
responses.  these structures are indices of what binds you to what exists,
of the extent to which you reproduce it, the extent to which you are it.
it is good, i think, to be suspicous of immediacy.  it is also good not to
loose the ability to indulge immediacy.  but it is good to be suspicious of
it.

stephen

On 1/30/07, Ian Reddy <xxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
>
> >one thing about certain kinds of sound, when they hit
> >you, when you are alone, for example, this perosnal
> >experience, when you hear something cool, that you
> >dont hear any hype about beforehand, and it creates
> >this separation from alienation, this curiously
> >numinous bubble, albeit momentary, until someone else
> >says, oh, you're listening to that, didnt you hear the
> >really great first album, or someone say its crap and
> >you no longer feel intimate with it even if you dont
> >care what someone else thinks. what the blogger guy
> >says makes sense in terms of emotional range only. is
> >all digital music in a sense governed by an irony
> >(related to a high level of self-consciousness) that
> >doesnt allow for the feelings such as joni mitchell
> >might sing about? does the full range of human emotion
> >demand words or demand the discarding of words?
> >anyway, its about your own fantasy formations, your
> >wildest imaginations, isnt it. what you desire.
>
> I think that in art, emotion is something either projected
> onto the work or it is something acted out by the performer.
> No work of art is a raw emotional outburst - that's impossible
> as art and music are obviously mediated through the intellect
> and already existing cultural forms.  I suggest that Joni Mitchel is
> performing her emotions through song.  Also certain sounds are
> culturally constructed as being connected to certain emotions (such as the
> connection of low droning sounds to feelings of gloom) and the artist
> often exploits these connections or we simply project them onto a
> work.  So....in brief I do think that art can provoke an emotional
> response BUT I also think the emotion we experience is drastically
> different from the emotion we speak of as being present in art, and
> probably not the same thing at all.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--Boundary_(ID_tG5rXMD0g+3fKnlUbyFK5g)--

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--- Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
> http://netlabel.qunabu.com/ -> releases -> qnb001 NN - Bugs Are
> Welcome -> 
> 07 transmiter 1
> 
> For me, this is an intensely emotional experience - it leaves me
> short of 
> breath, as though something is grabbing my gut and squeezing, not
> letting 
> me go.

Hmm.. nice track.. I didn't have that experience but for me the closest
I think I have felt to a similar sounding track is Nurse With Wound's
Soliloquy For Lilith although that technically might not be considered
microsound.

But as a baseline this transmiter track is somber. I would expect most
people to get that from it.. and is perhaps a tonality that reminds me
of other microsound artists like Oval.


> I'm saying that the kind of emotion I get from microsound music is of
> a 
> quite different character to the kind I get from say Ani DiFranco, or
> the 
> kind of passionate gypsy music that always forms the centrepiece in
> Tony 
> Gatlif's films - especially the theme music to Vengo.
> It's not even that microsound is more cerebral, because microsound
> can hit 
> my gut (I feel emotions in my gut) just as hard if I'm in the right
> mood.

I can get the hairs raised as an a occasional response.. Doesn't seem
like much microsound music has lyrical content so that'd be a big
difference from most pop music. I'd have to say that drones of the type
above feel like an outer body experience or that I'm travelling or are
in a foreign place. It's like a soundtrack to a movie about floating.

-Adrian

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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 16:32:15 2007
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There was no instruction at all in any of the art schools I attended
along these lines. I know of very few alumni who are making "fine arts"
for a living... that is not to say that there aren't many that aren't
working creatively in a profession.

-adrian

--- Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> It's a shame that so many people go to these fine institutions to
> learn such wonderful skills, only to have them choked off by the
> tourniquet of business inexperience.
> 
> ~Kyle


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>one thing about certain kinds of sound, when they hit
>you, when you are alone, for example, this perosnal
>experience, when you hear something cool, that you
>dont hear any hype about beforehand, and it creates
>this separation from alienation, this curiously
>numinous bubble, albeit momentary, until someone else
>says, oh, you're listening to that, didnt you hear the
>really great first album, or someone say its crap and
>you no longer feel intimate with it even if you dont
>care what someone else thinks. what the blogger guy
>says makes sense in terms of emotional range only. is
>all digital music in a sense governed by an irony
>(related to a high level of self-consciousness) that
>doesnt allow for the feelings such as joni mitchell
>might sing about? does the full range of human emotion
>demand words or demand the discarding of words?
>anyway, its about your own fantasy formations, your
>wildest imaginations, isnt it. what you desire. 

I think that in art, emotion is something either projected
onto the work or it is something acted out by the performer.
No work of art is a raw emotional outburst - that's impossible
as art and music are obviously mediated through the intellect
and already existing cultural forms.  I suggest that Joni Mitchel is
performing her emotions through song.  Also certain sounds are
culturally constructed as being connected to certain emotions (such as the
connection of low droning sounds to feelings of gloom) and the artist
often exploits these connections or we simply project them onto a
work.  So....in brief I do think that art can provoke an emotional
response BUT I also think the emotion we experience is drastically
different from the emotion we speak of as being present in art, and
probably not the same thing at all.


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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 14:37:53 2007
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one thing about certain kinds of sound, when they hit
you, when you are alone, for example, this perosnal
experience, when you hear something cool, that you
dont hear any hype about beforehand, and it creates
this separation from alienation, this curiously
numinous bubble, albeit momentary, until someone else
says, oh, you're listening to that, didnt you hear the
really great first album, or someone say its crap and
you no longer feel intimate with it even if you dont
care what someone else thinks. what the blogger guy
says makes sense in terms of emotional range only. is
all digital music in a sense governed by an irony
(related to a high level of self-consciousness) that
doesnt allow for the feelings such as joni mitchell
might sing about? does the full range of human emotion
demand words or demand the discarding of words?
anyway, its about your own fantasy formations, your
wildest imaginations, isnt it. what you desire. 
--- Peter Worth <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> > I find some .microsound music
> > to be highly 'emotional' but I don't have any
> conceptual framework to
> > explain where it comes from - certainly not one
> that stands up next to
> > for example Bob Lefsetz explaining why Joni
> Mitchell speaks to your
> > heart, where "beat-driven music" doesn't.
> >
> >
>
http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2007/01/27/greetings-from-to/
> >
> 
> can you give a few examples of the microsound music
> you find most
> emotional? cheers.
> 
>
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> 
> 


j.ff gbk

http://www.futurevessel.com/orphansound/

http://www.mattin.org/desetxea.html

http://www.djalma.com


 
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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 14:31:14 2007
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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:30:58 -0600
From: Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Business Art (was iConsume)
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This is a valid statement.

My girlfriend just got a BFA in painting. She learned a lot about her
skills with media and concepts, and how to defend her ideas. What she
didn't learn much of were the business things: pricing her art,
networking with collectors/gallery owners, marketing herself, etc. I
believe that she was only required to take a single one-hour, half
semester course that touched on any sort of business practicalities.

It's a shame that so many people go to these fine institutions to
learn such wonderful skills, only to have them choked off by the
tourniquet of business inexperience.

~Kyle

On 1/29/07, Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
> "Business art is the step that comes after Art.  I started as a
> commercial artist, and I want to finish as a business artist.  After
> I did the thing called "art" or whatever it's called, I went into
> business art.  I wanted to be an Art Businessman or a Business
> Artist.  Being good in business is the most fascinating kind of art.
> During the hippie era people put down the idea of business - they'd
> say, "Money is bad," and "working is bad," but making money is art
> and working is art and good business is the best art"
>
> Andy Warhol
> The Philosophy of Andy Warhol (from A to B and Back Again), p. 92,
> softcover edition.
>
> On 25-Jan-07, at 3:16 PM, Steven McLeod wrote:
>
> > "Good marketing/advertising" is designed for one thing only and
> > that is you to give the company your cash.  They are not concerned
> > with anything else. As an artform it is manipulative and uses
> > psycholgical techniques designed to make one believe their life
> > will be better as a result of buying into the product/lifestyle,
> > sounds like a shit form of art to me, be as well saying that the
> > way governments manipulate the populase can be an artform..'spose
> > one could say that, not my asthetic tho...
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Barknecht"
> > <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> > To: <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 9:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: [microsound] iConsume
> >
> >
> >> Hallo,
> >> Graham Miller hat gesagt: // Graham Miller wrote:
> >>
> >>> i just can't believe anyone of intelligence can't see marketing
> >>> as an
> >>> art form unto itself.  it's not evil.  it's only bad when it's done
> >>> poorly.  i love good advertising. apple computers has good
> >>> advertising.  they understand aesthetics. fonts. graphic design.
> >>> there is certainly not enough of it. i say more. not less.
> >>
> >> Aesthetics, fonts and graphic design are not marketing. Marketing
> >> uses
> >> these things among other things to sell products, but that doesn't
> >> make good or bad design equal to good or bad marketing.
> >>
> >> Ciao
> >> --
> >> Frank Barknecht                 _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
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> >
> >
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-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 13:22:12 2007
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> I find some .microsound music
> to be highly 'emotional' but I don't have any conceptual framework to
> explain where it comes from - certainly not one that stands up next to
> for example Bob Lefsetz explaining why Joni Mitchell speaks to your
> heart, where "beat-driven music" doesn't.
>
> http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2007/01/27/greetings-from-to/
>

can you give a few examples of the microsound music you find most
emotional? cheers.

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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 11:41:41 2007
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From: Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] miles of styles of philosophes
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Xdugef wrote:

> Do you mind if I ask you for an example of microsound music you find
> emotional.. maybe even something from the projects page? 

http://netlabel.qunabu.com/ -> releases -> qnb001 NN - Bugs Are Welcome -> 
07 transmiter 1

For me, this is an intensely emotional experience - it leaves me short of 
breath, as though something is grabbing my gut and squeezing, not letting 
me go.

> Some songs and sounds have nostalgia that could evoke emotion in some
> people and shrill sounds might induce panic etc.

It's not nostalgia. For me, in the track I mentioned above it's something 
to do with the repetition, the ever-unresolved chord, the sense of breathing...

> But are you saying that you find alot of microsound music is missing
> emotion?

I'm saying that the kind of emotion I get from microsound music is of a 
quite different character to the kind I get from say Ani DiFranco, or the 
kind of passionate gypsy music that always forms the centrepiece in Tony 
Gatlif's films - especially the theme music to Vengo.

It's not even that microsound is more cerebral, because microsound can hit 
my gut (I feel emotions in my gut) just as hard if I'm in the right mood.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 06:09:56 2007
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From: Xdugef <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] miles of styles of philosophes
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Damian,

Hmm well I can't help but to think that this person's close
relationship to Joni would be a big factor in inducing emotion in them.

Do you mind if I ask you for an example of microsound music you find
emotional.. maybe even something from the projects page? 

Some songs and sounds have nostalgia that could evoke emotion in some
people and shrill sounds might induce panic etc.

But are you saying that you find alot of microsound music is missing
emotion?

Adrian

--- Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> Xdugef wrote:
> > Here's a request... define or list some ".microsound issues". Maybe
> > that will get the ball rolling in a new direction. Obviously there
> are
> > probably many issues that would apply to all music but which ones
> only
> > apply to .microsound music.
> 
> "Where's the emotion" would be my biggest. I find some .microsound
> music 
> to be highly 'emotional' but I don't have any conceptual framework to
> 
> explain where it comes from - certainly not one that stands up next
> to 
> for example Bob Lefsetz explaining why Joni Mitchell speaks to your 
> heart, where "beat-driven music" doesn't.
> 
>
http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2007/01/27/greetings-from-to/
> 
> -- 
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
> 
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed
> 
> 
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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 03:53:10 2007
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Xdugef wrote:
> Here's a request... define or list some ".microsound issues". Maybe
> that will get the ball rolling in a new direction. Obviously there are
> probably many issues that would apply to all music but which ones only
> apply to .microsound music.

"Where's the emotion" would be my biggest. I find some .microsound music 
to be highly 'emotional' but I don't have any conceptual framework to 
explain where it comes from - certainly not one that stands up next to 
for example Bob Lefsetz explaining why Joni Mitchell speaks to your 
heart, where "beat-driven music" doesn't.

http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2007/01/27/greetings-from-to/

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed


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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 02:55:29 2007
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hi

> During the hippie era people put down the idea of business - they'd
> say, "Money is bad," and "working is bad," but making money is art
> and working is art and good business is the best art"
>
> Andy Warhol

warhol is the perfect figure to bring up in this discussion. most
would agree he was a sucessful artist [with all the conflicting
criteria that implies]. most would also agree he was a successful
businessman [his 60s studio was called 'the factory' for more than
it's past use].

business was a part of his art, definitely. one thread in his
multi-dimentional artwork is the dehumanizing alienation of consumer
life.

-- 
\js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]

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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 02:22:48 2007
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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:22:32 -0500
From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] Business Art (was iConsume)
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"Business art is the step that comes after Art.  I started as a  
commercial artist, and I want to finish as a business artist.  After  
I did the thing called "art" or whatever it's called, I went into  
business art.  I wanted to be an Art Businessman or a Business  
Artist.  Being good in business is the most fascinating kind of art.   
During the hippie era people put down the idea of business - they'd  
say, "Money is bad," and "working is bad," but making money is art  
and working is art and good business is the best art"

Andy Warhol
The Philosophy of Andy Warhol (from A to B and Back Again), p. 92,  
softcover edition.

On 25-Jan-07, at 3:16 PM, Steven McLeod wrote:

> "Good marketing/advertising" is designed for one thing only and  
> that is you to give the company your cash.  They are not concerned  
> with anything else. As an artform it is manipulative and uses  
> psycholgical techniques designed to make one believe their life  
> will be better as a result of buying into the product/lifestyle,  
> sounds like a shit form of art to me, be as well saying that the  
> way governments manipulate the populase can be an artform..'spose  
> one could say that, not my asthetic tho...
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Barknecht"  
> <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> To: <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 9:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [microsound] iConsume
>
>
>> Hallo,
>> Graham Miller hat gesagt: // Graham Miller wrote:
>>
>>> i just can't believe anyone of intelligence can't see marketing  
>>> as an
>>> art form unto itself.  it's not evil.  it's only bad when it's done
>>> poorly.  i love good advertising. apple computers has good
>>> advertising.  they understand aesthetics. fonts. graphic design.
>>> there is certainly not enough of it. i say more. not less.
>>
>> Aesthetics, fonts and graphic design are not marketing. Marketing  
>> uses
>> these things among other things to sell products, but that doesn't
>> make good or bad design equal to good or bad marketing.
>>
>> Ciao
>> -- 
>> Frank Barknecht                 _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.7/647 - Release Date:  
>> 23/01/2007 08:02
>>
>
>
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From ???@??? Tue Jan 30 02:06:45 2007
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Could you be more specific? Are you referring to the concept of the
"refrain" in A Thousand Plateaus, or something else?
~David

On 1/29/07, v dish <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> Has anbody here read Deleuze's theory of music? If so can you suggest any
> interpretations of this aspect of his philosophy, as I'm not finding it very
> accessible.
> Thanks!
>
> Sidasah
>
> On 1/29/07, Xdugef <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> >
> > Are you really responding to my post?
> >
> > It was a serious question that was not asked out of anger (despite any
> > of my not so recent posts). Since this is the ".microsound list" I
> > thought it would be more relevant to the list to talk about how a
> > philosophy.. any philosophy actually applies to a style or how one
> > structures their music.
> >
> > Is that wrong of me to ask??? What is an example of a  "microsound
> > issue"? I really want to know.
> >
> > Or maybe I'm missing the obvious.. take a recording of protesters, chop
> > it up into indecipherable bits and call it ode to Marx?
> >
> > But to address some of issues you bring up... if consumerism is an
> > issue then I suppose it is an unavoidable fact that if you use current
> > technology and upgrade and add to your arsenal new gear on a regular
> > basis then you might be considered a supporter of consumerism and
> > therefore capitalism.
> >
> > Solution.. buy old/used equipment, use open source software and give
> > your music away... move off the grid.. ferment soy beeans.. I dunno.
> >
> > Personally as much as I can I use "recycled" gear but I have money so I
> > buy new shit too.. but I also giveaway alot of music as well.
> >
> > Is it an issue for anybody that Apple sells computers to the DOD?
> >
> > Adrian
> >
> > --- xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx wrote:
> >
> > > > Here's a request... define or list some ".microsound issues". Maybe
> > > > that will get the ball rolling in a new direction. Obviously there
> > > are
> > > > probably many issues that would apply to all music but which ones
> > > only
> > > > apply to .microsound music.
> > > >
> > > > Adrian
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't see a need for this constraint. I read more than I post
> > > because
> > > there is rarely little more I can add. But to me all forms of art are
> > > currently so dominated and manipulated by capitalism as it operates
> > > today
> > > that I see the kind of posts that Kim is making to be acutely
> > > relevant and
> > > they make me think contextually about what I do. It's not purely
> > > political, it's socio-political and the environment in which we
> > > create art
> > > is so dominated by US socio-political imperialism that the worth of
> > > such
> > > discussion shouldn't be dismissed so easily. Consumerism is the
> > > prevailing
> > > religion in my country (Australia - the other developed country that
> > > rejected Kyoto).
> > >
> > > The topics of the posts are quite transparent. It's easy not to open
> > > them
> > > if you don't want to engage in the debate. I don't understand the
> > > anger at
> > > all.
> > >
> > > It's not like there isn't a choice or there isn't room for discussion
> > > about the wider social context as well as the narrower .microsund
> > > minutae.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> >
> >
>
>

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Has anbody here read Deleuze's theory of music? If so can you suggest any
interpretations of this aspect of his philosophy, as I'm not finding it very
accessible.
Thanks!

Sidasah

On 1/29/07, Xdugef <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> Are you really responding to my post?
>
> It was a serious question that was not asked out of anger (despite any
> of my not so recent posts). Since this is the ".microsound list" I
> thought it would be more relevant to the list to talk about how a
> philosophy.. any philosophy actually applies to a style or how one
> structures their music.
>
> Is that wrong of me to ask??? What is an example of a  "microsound
> issue"? I really want to know.
>
> Or maybe I'm missing the obvious.. take a recording of protesters, chop
> it up into indecipherable bits and call it ode to Marx?
>
> But to address some of issues you bring up... if consumerism is an
> issue then I suppose it is an unavoidable fact that if you use current
> technology and upgrade and add to your arsenal new gear on a regular
> basis then you might be considered a supporter of consumerism and
> therefore capitalism.
>
> Solution.. buy old/used equipment, use open source software and give
> your music away... move off the grid.. ferment soy beeans.. I dunno.
>
> Personally as much as I can I use "recycled" gear but I have money so I
> buy new shit too.. but I also giveaway alot of music as well.
>
> Is it an issue for anybody that Apple sells computers to the DOD?
>
> Adrian
>
> --- xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx wrote:
>
> > > Here's a request... define or list some ".microsound issues". Maybe
> > > that will get the ball rolling in a new direction. Obviously there
> > are
> > > probably many issues that would apply to all music but which ones
> > only
> > > apply to .microsound music.
> > >
> > > Adrian
> > >
> >
> > I don't see a need for this constraint. I read more than I post
> > because
> > there is rarely little more I can add. But to me all forms of art are
> > currently so dominated and manipulated by capitalism as it operates
> > today
> > that I see the kind of posts that Kim is making to be acutely
> > relevant and
> > they make me think contextually about what I do. It's not purely
> > political, it's socio-political and the environment in which we
> > create art
> > is so dominated by US socio-political imperialism that the worth of
> > such
> > discussion shouldn't be dismissed so easily. Consumerism is the
> > prevailing
> > religion in my country (Australia - the other developed country that
> > rejected Kyoto).
> >
> > The topics of the posts are quite transparent. It's easy not to open
> > them
> > if you don't want to engage in the debate. I don't understand the
> > anger at
> > all.
> >
> > It's not like there isn't a choice or there isn't room for discussion
> > about the wider social context as well as the narrower .microsund
> > minutae.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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From ???@??? Mon Jan 29 22:32:46 2007
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Are you really responding to my post?

It was a serious question that was not asked out of anger (despite any
of my not so recent posts). Since this is the ".microsound list" I
thought it would be more relevant to the list to talk about how a
philosophy.. any philosophy actually applies to a style or how one
structures their music. 

Is that wrong of me to ask??? What is an example of a  "microsound
issue"? I really want to know.

Or maybe I'm missing the obvious.. take a recording of protesters, chop
it up into indecipherable bits and call it ode to Marx?

But to address some of issues you bring up... if consumerism is an
issue then I suppose it is an unavoidable fact that if you use current
technology and upgrade and add to your arsenal new gear on a regular
basis then you might be considered a supporter of consumerism and
therefore capitalism.

Solution.. buy old/used equipment, use open source software and give
your music away... move off the grid.. ferment soy beeans.. I dunno.

Personally as much as I can I use "recycled" gear but I have money so I
buy new shit too.. but I also giveaway alot of music as well.

Is it an issue for anybody that Apple sells computers to the DOD?

Adrian

--- xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx wrote:

> > Here's a request... define or list some ".microsound issues". Maybe
> > that will get the ball rolling in a new direction. Obviously there
> are
> > probably many issues that would apply to all music but which ones
> only
> > apply to .microsound music.
> >
> > Adrian
> >
> 
> I don't see a need for this constraint. I read more than I post
> because
> there is rarely little more I can add. But to me all forms of art are
> currently so dominated and manipulated by capitalism as it operates
> today
> that I see the kind of posts that Kim is making to be acutely
> relevant and
> they make me think contextually about what I do. It's not purely
> political, it's socio-political and the environment in which we
> create art
> is so dominated by US socio-political imperialism that the worth of
> such
> discussion shouldn't be dismissed so easily. Consumerism is the
> prevailing
> religion in my country (Australia - the other developed country that
> rejected Kyoto).
> 
> The topics of the posts are quite transparent. It's easy not to open
> them
> if you don't want to engage in the debate. I don't understand the
> anger at
> all.
> 
> It's not like there isn't a choice or there isn't room for discussion
> about the wider social context as well as the narrower .microsund
> minutae.
> 
> 
> 


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From ???@??? Mon Jan 29 18:43:22 2007
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Here's a request... define or list some ".microsound issues". Maybe
that will get the ball rolling in a new direction. Obviously there are
probably many issues that would apply to all music but which ones only
apply to .microsound music.

Adrian

--- Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> hey, if anyone wants to discuss .microsound issues from a post- 
> colonial or feminist or queer or post-modern or Straussian neocon or 
> 
> whatever viewpoint that's fine too...
> but boysenberry is cool too
> 
> 
> 
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From ???@??? Mon Jan 29 18:13:06 2007
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hey, if anyone wants to discuss .microsound issues from a post- 
colonial or feminist or queer or post-modern or Straussian neocon or  
whatever viewpoint that's fine too...
but boysenberry is cool too



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Subject: [microsound] L'oeuvre ouverte | PureData Convention '07 - Call for
 Proposals
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[VERSION FRANÇAISE CI-DESSOUS]

L'oeuvre ouverte | PureData Convention '07 - Call for Proposals

* August 21st-26th, 2007 - Montreal, Canada

* Deadline for artworks/performances and workshops: February 28th 2007
* Deadline for papers: March 31st 2007

http://convention.puredata.org/

The PureData Convention Steering Committee is now accepting proposals
for participation in L'oeuvre ouverte (the Open Work), the 2nd
International PureData Convention. L'oeuvre ouverte invites an open
relation between the artwork and the public as well as open attitudes
and practices in the fields of programming, artistic creation and
scientific research. It will bring together artists, developers and
writers who develop, use and reflect on PureData.

The Convention will acknowledge the broad range of artistic and
technical disciplines that make use of the software and will address
questions of openness and accessibility. It will provide a theoretical
and artistic context for the understanding of the aesthetics and
politics of Free / Open Source Software culture.

Selected proposals will reflect varied perspectives and outlooks on
the artistic possibilities of free software and hardware that emanate
from a wide-ranging community. These include, but are not restricted
to: connections to art, science and society as well as demonstrations of
innovative and intuitive interactions. We encourage a wide range of
submissions from all levels of proficiency with the software as well
as from emergent and diverse PureData communities. Submissions will be
evaluated by peer review committees.

Proposals are sought in the following categories:

Artwork/Performances:
The selected artworks should make use of PureData.  All forms of audio
and visual art including real-time interactive works, improvisations
with technology, instrumental/electroacoustic mixes, sound
installations, performances, network art, robotics, software art and
interdisciplinary work are welcome.

Papers and posters:
We are accepting papers that offer varying perspectives on technical,
social, cultural as well as art theory/historical aspects of PureData
or the aesthetics and politics of Free / Open Source Software (FOSS)
culture.

Demos:
Externals, performance patches, packages of abstractions, sensors and
physical computing interfaces, etc.

Workshops:
Beginner to advanced level hands-on workshops, installation help, DIY etc.

::applicants are invited to submit in multiple categories::

please read the application guidelines here:
http://convention.puredata.org/guidelines

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

L'oeuvre ouverte | Congrès PureData 2007 - Appel de propositions

* Du 21 au 26 août 2007, Montréal, Canada

* Appel à participation ? Jusqu'au 28 février pour les projets
artistiques et les ateliers, le 31 mars pour les exposés.

http://convention.puredata.org/convention07-fr

Le comité organisateur du Congrès de PureData accepte maintenant les
propositions en vue de participer à L'oeuvre ouverte, 2e Congrès
international de PureData. L'oeuvre ouverte propose une relation
d'ouverture entre l'oeuvre d'art et le public et encourage les
attitudes et les pratiques ouvertes dans les domaines de la
programmation, de la création artistique et de la recherché
scientifique. Le congrès réunira artistes, développeurs et théoriciens
qui sont les créateurs de PureData, qui exploitent le logiciel ou en
font l'objet de leur réflexion.

Le Congrès témoignera de toute la gamme des disciplines artistiques et
techniques qui exploitent le logiciel libre et s'intéressera aux
questions d'ouverture et d'accessibilité. Il servira de cadre
théorique et artistique pour la compréhension des aspects esthétiques
et politiques propres à la culture du logiciel libre.

Les propositions retenues refléteront les nombreuses perspectives que
le logiciel libre et ses applications, émanant d'une collectivité
diversifiée, offrent en matière de possibilités artistiques, qu'il
s'agisse, notamment, de jonctions établies entre l'art, la science et
la société ou de la présentation d'interactions innovatrices et
intuitives. Les propositions les plus diverses sont les bienvenues,
peu importe le degré de compétence de l'auteur à l'égard du logiciel.
L'invitation est lancée, entre autres, aux collectifs de PureData en
émergence. Les propositions seront évaluées par des comités de pairs.

Les propositions doivent se situer dans les catégories suivantes:

Oeuvres d'art/installations:
les ?uvres de toute nature, produites à l'aide de PureData, soit toute
forme d'art audio et visuel, y compris les ?uvres interactives en
temps réel, les improvisations technologiques, les pièces
instrumentales et électroacoustiques, les installations sonores, les
performances, l'art robotique et télématique et les ?uvres
multidisciplinaires.

Exposés et affiche:
communications apportant diverses perspectives sur les aspects
techniques, sociaux, culturels, l'histoire de l'art de PureData, de
même que sur les aspects esthétiques et politiques de la culture du
logiciel libre.

Démonstrations:
périphériques, outils de performance, extras, senseurs et interfaces, etc.

Ateliers:
travaux pratiques de niveau débutant à avancé, aide aux installations,
activités manuelles, etc.

SVP lisez les lignes directrices:
http://convention.puredata.org/guidelines-fr

::Les intéressés sont invités à faire des propositions de nature multiple::
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From ???@??? Sun Jan 28 23:05:29 2007
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Subject: [microsound] Microsound List Archive...
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Greets-

Just wanted to let folks know I did one of my once-in-a-blue-moon
updates of the microsound list archive, available here:

<http://www.propheticdesire.us/menu.html>

Only limited checking on my part, so if you find something broken,
please let me  know.

Enjoy! vatic

<xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>

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From ???@??? Sun Jan 28 21:48:18 2007
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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:48:04 +1300
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Subject: Re: [microsound] a primer in marxist asthetics
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john saylor wrote:

> in other words, it 'arrives' when
> more than one person makes microsound music that is multi-leveled and
> evocative. small packets of culture develop here and there ...

Isn't this happening already?

> so you see, it has nothing to do with television for me. and with the
> internet as a distribution channel, no one from a major corporation
> [record label] needs to be involved at all ...

I think microsound if it appears on television will have appeared in 
various other far more obvious places first.

> hmm, but what about if the wild-eyed free-jazz cat is your [hungry]
> friend? does that change your answer?

It's usually me, actually. And no, I kinda like dumpster diving.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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From: Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] post-globalization socialist art
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> 3. Theoretically speaking, what could a new
> post-globalization, socialist art look like?   What
> would decidedly be its tenor, its thrust, at this
> point?  Does a kind of melancholic glitch 'space' go
> beyond a humanistic soulfulness and actually challenge
> hegemony, at the level of the imaginary?  Is
> singularity important (or rather how could singularity
> work without becoming the Great Author of the Work)?


I don't think you can impose a top-down methodology on to the  
development of cultural work
most of the time the process takes on a more viral form anyway
one person starts something
and others follow with mimetic content
which then breeds other derivations
-----------------------------------------------
I see collaboration having more of a role in the future
this is the basis of my 'Emergent Content' workshops
the content is brought about by a group of people all shaping the  
materials into a single form
which btw is an exciting process to watch
in this process all the participants vote on a particular bit of content
which then helps determine whether or not it gets a chance to 'breed'
the process uses a simple genetic algorithm
which means the resulting content is formed by the 'fitness function'  
imposed by the group
not by any one individual
I see this as one possible model for a post-globalization, socialist  
process

and it is already taking place in open source development and Wiki- 
styled content
where the content is shaped by many hands
all adding their unique perspective to the mix


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One of the most interesting philosophers of aesthetics I've read is
Stefan Morawski, whose book:  _Inquiries into the Fundamentals of
Aesthetics_ (MIT Press, 1974) is the best english language statement of
his thinking.

I've uploaded a bunch of his essays to the repository, some more recent
and others ("Artistic Value," "Expression") overlapping the contents of
the book above.

Perhaps some will find them an worthwhile read.

vatic

<xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>

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hi

On 1/28/07, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
> I think microsound on a television ad would be a good /indication/ that
> microsound had 'arrived', yes.

arrived as a corpse!

i think this is an indication of where we diverge. if we can equate
artistic maturity with 'arriving', i would say it arrives when its
'language' is sufficiently nuanced to have more than one person doing
meaningful work within the language. in other words, it 'arrives' when
more than one person makes microsound music that is multi-leveled and
evocative. small packets of culture develop here and there ...

so you see, it has nothing to do with television for me. and with the
internet as a distribution channel, no one from a major corporation
[record label] needs to be involved at all ...

> Do we care more that the wild-eyed free-jazz cat is rewarded for his
> efforts, or that his efforts reach the rest of the world and affect change?
> I think the latter.

hmm, but what about if the wild-eyed free-jazz cat is your [hungry]
friend? does that change your answer?

-- 
\js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]

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john saylor wrote:

> ok- sure. that argument is very sensible.
> maybe i missed something- but why do we care that  advertisers are
> interested in art [as another means to manipulate consumers]: is that
> how we measure art? economically?

First of all - for anyone going 'oh sigh, Marxism', Marxism actually has 
little to do with self-righteous middle-class student protestors, or the 
Soviet Union, and a lot to do with a pretty solid framework for 
understanding how an industrial or post-industrial economy (ie ours) 
operates. For an updated version of Marxism that takes the IT industry into 
account I can thoroughly recommend "A Hacker Manifesto" by McKenzie Wark. 
It paints possibly the best picture of what the employer/employee 
relationship feels like if you're an IT professional, while (from memory, 
it's been a while since I read it) taking into account the open source 
movement and other interesting bits of digital culture that have emerged 
recently.

Having got that out of the way, if you read the primer on Marxist 
aesthetics that Kim posted on the website (under .microsound 
repository/miscellaneous/Reading), one of the questions raised was how to 
interpret a particular paragraph on the place of art in the world. Two 
possible interpretations are outlined (on Page 10). One interpretation puts 
art as something that arises wholly from the economic/material world, thus 
irreducible to the economic/material world, and thus not important in 
influencing those who currently hold power in our world. The other 
interpretation puts art in a position where it is capable of influencing 
the economic/material world, and thus capable of affecting change in 'the 
real world'.

> to some people, everything in their lives is valued according to its
> worth in a currency. but isn't there so much more to being alive than
> collecting money? esp. for 'creative' people.

Yes, but that's not my point. Here's an analogy: one of the strongest (IMO) 
ways of making the environmental movement a more powerful force for 
affecting change is by adopting the language of accounting and then turning 
it back on itself. If you can put a dollar value on a cubic metre of clean 
air, then you can put a dollar cost on polluting that cubic metre of clean 
air, and thus you can write environmental costs into accounting sheets in 
ways that businesspeople understand how to deal with. Or take this example 
here: http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/003255.html .

I'm not saying that art has to have an impact on the economy, or that it 
should be valued by its worth in currency - I'm just saying that it *can*, 
and such an analysis if performed could prove hugely useful in, for 
example, convincing rich people to fund art projects.

>> The wild-eyed free-jazz cats put on a gig,
> [deletions]
>> and next thing you know something of the essence of the
>> wild-eyed free-jazz music (mutated and translated but still there) 
>> shows up
>> on prime-time television selling toothpaste.
> 
> sure- to grab the glitchy audience ...

No, not at all.

Go listen to 'Don't Tell Me' by Madonna. Notice how enormously it features 
the glitchy cut-up guitar. But this is not a glitchy work, and not designed 
to 'grab the glitchy audience' - rather, the producers of the track chose 
that one particular aesthetic as a way of hooking in the straight pop 
audience to a fresh sound.

Do you think the producers of 'Don't Tell Me' would've dared do this had 
there not been a significant body of pre-existing glitch work, that 
doubtless they or some of their more out-there music-geek friends played 
them at some stage? It's all networking.

> is this artistic sucess? does it mean microsound music has 'arrived'
> once it's used as a soundtrack for a television advertisement?

I think microsound on a television ad would be a good /indication/ that 
microsound had 'arrived', yes. Ads tend to be quite conservative. But I 
don't think that placement on a television advertisement could ever in 
itself bring about the 'arrival' of microsound.

> your wild-eyed free-jazz cat is still dumpster diving for dinner ...

Do we care more that the wild-eyed free-jazz cat is rewarded for his 
efforts, or that his efforts reach the rest of the world and affect change? 
I think the latter.

Besides, I currently earn a very enormous hourly wage for my design job, 
and I still dumpster dive for my dinner sometimes.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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this is an excellent discussion, imo. 

i wanted to provoke a slightly different vantage point
into this. 

it more operates around a cluster of questions, that
have to do with the present:
 

1. is the digital era a revolution culturally (akin to
the industrial revolution)? Or a shift
technologically. In other words, do things like JIT
(just-in-time) technologies make an extraordinary
difference to the culture of capitalism, or represent
a kind of ramping up (a kind of hyper capitalism)? 

2. As Negri & Hardt argue in Empire, the development
of today's Neo-Liberal order -- Globalization --state
was specifically created by the ruling class to
essentially push back the working class and
post-colonial self-determination struggles which were
making popular, mass inroads into such things as
quality of life issues (healthcare, education, etc.
etc), as well as simply the wage.  So, this communist
possibility was 'sensed' by the politicos/economists
of the ruling class and it was beaten back, stripped
clean at its roots, so as to allow for "unfettered
markets". The first structural adjustment being Sept
11, 1972 in Chile, which installed not only Pinochet
but also let the  "chicago school of economics" run
with the ball. This 'school' was the first imprint of
the new Neo-Liberal economic system (hallmarks being
no welfare state, no 'dangerous' workers unions,
environmental protections, reduction of education
programs, etc as much as possible), to be put into
place. So, now almost forty years later, with
globalization -- as a cultural order or general
concept -- considered not only "inevitable" but
virtually the-way-things-are by most everyday people
in europe and north america, I wonder where is the new
point of rupture or change? In wildcat strikes in
China (thousands are occuring every month), in mass
uprisings in the global south (Oaxaca being a recent
example)?  There is a disparate quality to all these
actions, as if against the police state of the
Neo-Liberal order are events which are acts of
resistance and genuine desire for moral sense, but
which are not nonetheless, 'enough' to create a sense
of global momentum across regions.  Why are they not
'enough'? The media? Or are we -- the 'first' world --
so invested/socialized/scared into our corners of the
hi-lo ghettos of the Terrordome vis-a-vis the non-stop
sex-war-shampoo Spectacle that we can't possibly
imagine 'others' as in any way our brothers and
sisters (to use decidedly old fashioned terminology). 

3. Theoretically speaking, what could a new
post-globalization, socialist art look like?   What
would decidedly be its tenor, its thrust, at this
point?  Does a kind of melancholic glitch 'space' go
beyond a humanistic soulfulness and actually challenge
hegemony, at the level of the imaginary?  Is
singularity important (or rather how could singularity
work without becoming the Great Author of the Work)?

-Andrew

 there would
> be difficulty in  
> 'opening' european markets due to the proliferation
> of workers unions
> which was an outgrowth of and directly influenced by
> communist/ 
> socialist/anarchist/marxist (I'll call this
> 'leftist' for ease of  
> typing) parties
> so the US devised this program called the Marshall
> Plan
> which had two purposes:
> one was the help rebuild europe (in our own
> likeness) thereby  
> establishing markets for the US overproduction of
> goods
> the other was to bust the unions and discourage
> 'leftist' political  
> philosophy from spreading in europe
> thus making it cheaper for american businesses to
> operate there
> 



 
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Have an item listed on ebay. Email me off-list if you are interested.  
Thanks.

http://tinyurl.com/2n8k5m

Dom.


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From ???@??? Sat Jan 27 23:56:24 2007
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From: john saylor <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
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hi

> On 1/26/07, Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > maybe some interesting protest recordings could form the basis of a
> > new microsound project?

On 1/26/07, john saylor <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> i'm gonna be in boston- so i'll bring my edirol r1 and see if i can
> grab anything interesting ...

posted 15 mins of the protest rally:
http://or8.net/~johns/misc/20070127.mp3

there's a nice chant several minutes in, and then the bells in a
nearby church started ringing, making a nice mix.

the only processing i did on the file was a fade in and out, and i
brought the levels down a tiny bit in the middle when it was clipping.

if people want to 'reprocess' this audio- it's ok with me. i don't
know how long i'll leave it up at its present location. prolly at
least a month, maybe more.

-- 
\js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]

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boysenberry?

>
>
>
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From ???@??? Sat Jan 27 16:57:14 2007
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Unfortunately Baskin Robins (this list) is now only selling only
flavor.. guess which one it is?


--- Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> v dish wrote:
> > why can't this list be geared toward a philosophical discussion of
> digital
> > and post-digital audio culture without discussion of marxism?
> 
> because that's like saying why can't this list be geared toward a 
> philosophical discussion of icecream without discussing boysenberry
> flavour.


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IMHO, this list has long gone off-topic...

Hernan

www.cooptrol.com



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hi

On 1/27/07, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
> my point is that if advertising is an important
> economic force (which it is), and if advertisers are interested in art
> (which they appear to be), then art does have an effect on the economy.

ok- sure. that argument is very sensible.
maybe i missed something- but why do we care that  advertisers are
interested in art [as another means to manipulate consumers]: is that
how we measure art? economically?

to some people, everything in their lives is valued according to its
worth in a currency. but isn't there so much more to being alive than
collecting money? esp. for 'creative' people.

> The wild-eyed free-jazz cats put on a gig,
[deletions]
> and next thing you know something of the essence of the
> wild-eyed free-jazz music (mutated and translated but still there) shows up
> on prime-time television selling toothpaste.

sure- to grab the glitchy audience ...

is this artistic sucess? does it mean microsound music has 'arrived'
once it's used as a soundtrack for a television advertisement?

your wild-eyed free-jazz cat is still dumpster diving for dinner ...

-- 
\js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]

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No one did it better than Stockhausen :). Check the 3rd region of Hymnen.

//p
http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0/

On 1/26/07, Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> Yeah, especially since the best microsound is in the mind...tools
> can't express it like I think it.
>
> Hah!
>
> Let's do a remix of the Soviet National Anthem contest.
>
> (In jest,)
>
> ~Kyle

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Kim Cascone wrote:
> a .pdf of the first chapter only
> was uploaded to the repository
> in the reading dir.

Thanks for that Kim.

This makes me think about the "creative industry" - design, advertising, 
and film and television production. Given as how almost all manufacturing 
work now happens overseas, it could be argued that these are becoming the 
most economically important forces in the Western world.

Now, I work in this industry (with a small company that makes interactive 
museum installations), and having spoken to the owners of several of the 
most successful companies here in Wellington, New Zealand, it strikes me 
that one of the things that they all have in common is an interest in art. 
This makes a lot of sense - advertisers are often looking for different 
ways of enticing people to experience their ads, and artists are often 
trying to create works that allow listeners or viewers to experience 
something new or different, or at least in a different way.

Whether or not advertising is art is a separate matter and one I'm not 
really interested in, but my point is that if advertising is an important 
economic force (which it is), and if advertisers are interested in art 
(which they appear to be), then art does have an effect on the economy. 
Even if it's indirect, it's there. The wild-eyed free-jazz cats put on a 
gig, someone from the audience goes home later that night and composes some 
electronica in response; he plays it to his buddy who writes soundtracks 
for Saatchi & Saatchi, his buddy goes off later that week and writes some 
new music for the ad he's working on, having drawn inspiration from his 
mate's electronica, and next thing you know something of the essence of the 
wild-eyed free-jazz music (mutated and translated but still there) shows up 
on prime-time television selling toothpaste.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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From ???@??? Sat Jan 27 12:33:49 2007
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v dish wrote:
> why can't this list be geared toward a philosophical discussion of digital
> and post-digital audio culture without discussion of marxism?

because that's like saying why can't this list be geared toward a 
philosophical discussion of icecream without discussing boysenberry flavour.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
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http://www.frey.co.nz
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didnt think that was the point Kim's making,
discussing different philosophical outlooks / pov's
would make for a more diverse and richer discussion.
sounds like things could be getting
argumentative....this might not help....and there is a
lot of contempt at times on this list, i've noted this
and its a drag and unnecessary. dont feel
unnecessarily excluded.....

and yes swapping mp3's, myspace stuff might be better
done on the announce list or off list to maintain a
certain focus. i'm subbed to the announce list too....

best

ben 

--- Xdugef <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> Seems to me that only certain philosophies are
> acceptable (especially
> ones having to do with marxists povs).. and
> obviously if yours is not a
> supported one then yours must be that of an
> anti-intellectual.
> 
> 
> Style
> The way in which something is said, done, expressed,
> or performed: a
> style of speech and writing. 
> The combination of distinctive features of literary
> or artistic
> expression, execution, or performance characterizing
> a particular
> person, group, school, or era. 
> 
> Philosophy
> 1. the rational investigation of the truths and
> principles of being,
> knowledge, or conduct.  
> 2. any of the three branches, namely natural
> philosophy, moral
> philosophy, and metaphysical philosophy, that are
> accepted as composing
> this study.  
> 
> The difference seems clear to me.
> 
> --- Milan Davidovic <xxxxx.xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> wrote:
> 
> > On 1/26/07, Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> wrote:
> > > the purpose of microsound is to foster
> philosophical discourse
> > about
> > > digital music
> > 
> > The purpose is described on the microsound
> homepage as follows:
> > 
> > .microsound is an unmediated mailing list oriented
> toward discussion
> > of the styles of digital and post-digital music
> promulgated by the
> > proliferation and widespread adoption of digital
> signal processing
> > (dsp) tools.
> > 
> > My reading of "styles" is somewhat narrower than
> "philosophical
> > discourse" -- not that I have anything against
> philosophical
> > discourse. What about the rest of you?
> 
> 
>
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> 



 
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From ???@??? Sat Jan 27 05:11:25 2007
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why can't this list be geared toward a philosophical discussion of digital
and post-digital audio culture without discussion of marxism?

On 1/26/07, Jon <xxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx.xx> wrote:
>
> > if you want the fanboy sort of thing
> > I implore you to unsub from microsound and go start your own list
> > on yahoogroups
> > there you will be free to announce your new mp3s, post software
> > reviews, chat about all the cool new CD packaging
> > and send each other MySpace URL's
> > ad nauseam
> >
> > I'm sorry to keep repeating this over and over but...
> > that is not why the founders started the microsound list
> >
> > rigorous discussions on digital aesthetics are welcomed and
> > encouraged here
> > you want fluff? go elsewhere
>
> whether or not this is in reference to my previous post, i would like
> to state that:
>
> 1) as stated, i am interested in theory and philosophy myself, but i
> also believe there are better, more rigorous and generally useful
> forums for that;
> 2) i am not 'anti-intellectual'... in fact, i am pro-intellectual, if
> such a thing exists, which is why i find the piecemeal nature of the
> marxist banter here unbecoming;
> 3) i am definitely not a fanboy and suspect many of the people here
> who have a problem with the torrent of karl aren't either... i just
> want intelligent discussion of music, not marxist analyses of the
> middle class as they relate to the apple iphone.
>
> i hope nobody is taking my (or most other peoples' constructively
> critical) comments personally.  in the spirit of pro-intellectualism,
> we should be able to discuss these things without getting upset, right?
>
> - jon.
>
>
>
>
> ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
> dizzydonor.org
>
>
>
--Boundary_(ID_z+3XZRSj/ky3W2fLMRCQuQ)--

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> if you want the fanboy sort of thing
> I implore you to unsub from microsound and go start your own list  
> on yahoogroups
> there you will be free to announce your new mp3s, post software  
> reviews, chat about all the cool new CD packaging
> and send each other MySpace URL's
> ad nauseam
>
> I'm sorry to keep repeating this over and over but...
> that is not why the founders started the microsound list
>
> rigorous discussions on digital aesthetics are welcomed and  
> encouraged here
> you want fluff? go elsewhere

whether or not this is in reference to my previous post, i would like  
to state that:

1) as stated, i am interested in theory and philosophy myself, but i  
also believe there are better, more rigorous and generally useful  
forums for that;
2) i am not 'anti-intellectual'... in fact, i am pro-intellectual, if  
such a thing exists, which is why i find the piecemeal nature of the  
marxist banter here unbecoming;
3) i am definitely not a fanboy and suspect many of the people here  
who have a problem with the torrent of karl aren't either... i just  
want intelligent discussion of music, not marxist analyses of the  
middle class as they relate to the apple iphone.

i hope nobody is taking my (or most other peoples' constructively  
critical) comments personally.  in the spirit of pro-intellectualism,  
we should be able to discuss these things without getting upset, right?

- jon.




.... ... ... ... ... ... ...
dizzydonor.org

--Boundary_(ID_LN218IbCkrqINEihTP3ikg)--

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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:29:42 -0600
From: Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] [ot] jan 27 protest
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Yeah, especially since the best microsound is in the mind...tools
can't express it like I think it.

Hah!

Let's do a remix of the Soviet National Anthem contest.

(In jest,)

~Kyle

On 1/26/07, Milan Davidovic <xxxxx.xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> one might well conclude that the tools themselves are off-topic -- or
> at best, peripheral.
>
-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
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On 1/26/07, Luke Iannini (pd) <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> hahahahahhaha go off on a tangent to talk about the R1.  Come on. That's funny.

Well, if the list is billed as:

"an unmediated mailing list oriented toward discussion of the styles
of digital and post-digital music promulgated by the proliferation and
widespread adoption of digital signal processing (dsp) tools",

one might well conclude that the tools themselves are off-topic -- or
at best, peripheral.

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
http://www.terminus1525.ca/studio/view/2758

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From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 23:17:56 2007
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hahahahahhaha go off on a tangent to talk about the R1.  Come on. That's funny.

On 1/26/07, Kevin Paul <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> at risk for castigation for going off on a tangent, how do you like
> the edirol r1?  i'm going to istanbul in april and am considering
> purchase of a microsized recording device.  tia.
>
> kevin paul
> abq, nm
>
> >
> > i'm gonna be in boston- so i'll bring my edirol r1 and see if i can
> > grab anything interesting ...
> >
> > --
> > \js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
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From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 23:08:25 2007
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Awsome!

Lets get a project going so we can possibly redirect the vibe on this 
list which seems to be veering all over the place of late...


aLEKs


On Jan 26, 2007, at 5:59 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:

> a .pdf of the first chapter only
> was uploaded to the repository
> in the reading dir.
>
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From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 22:59:49 2007
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a .pdf of the first chapter only
was uploaded to the repository
in the reading dir.

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From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 21:59:39 2007
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Seems to me that only certain philosophies are acceptable (especially
ones having to do with marxists povs).. and obviously if yours is not a
supported one then yours must be that of an anti-intellectual.


Style
The way in which something is said, done, expressed, or performed: a
style of speech and writing. 
The combination of distinctive features of literary or artistic
expression, execution, or performance characterizing a particular
person, group, school, or era. 

Philosophy
1. the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being,
knowledge, or conduct.  
2. any of the three branches, namely natural philosophy, moral
philosophy, and metaphysical philosophy, that are accepted as composing
this study.  

The difference seems clear to me.

--- Milan Davidovic <xxxxx.xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> On 1/26/07, Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > the purpose of microsound is to foster philosophical discourse
> about
> > digital music
> 
> The purpose is described on the microsound homepage as follows:
> 
> .microsound is an unmediated mailing list oriented toward discussion
> of the styles of digital and post-digital music promulgated by the
> proliferation and widespread adoption of digital signal processing
> (dsp) tools.
> 
> My reading of "styles" is somewhat narrower than "philosophical
> discourse" -- not that I have anything against philosophical
> discourse. What about the rest of you?


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From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 21:42:24 2007
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On 1/26/07, Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> the purpose of microsound is to foster philosophical discourse about
> digital music

The purpose is described on the microsound homepage as follows:

..microsound is an unmediated mailing list oriented toward discussion
of the styles of digital and post-digital music promulgated by the
proliferation and widespread adoption of digital signal processing
(dsp) tools.

My reading of "styles" is somewhat narrower than "philosophical
discourse" -- not that I have anything against philosophical
discourse. What about the rest of you?

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
http://www.terminus1525.ca/studio/view/2758

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From: Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] anti-intellectualism
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--Boundary_(ID_J+RjJHv7l/oYBuO98RMqZg)
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there is a rampant anti-intellectualism displayed by people on this  
list who have somehow misjudged its purpose

the purpose of microsound is to foster philosophical discourse about  
digital music
not just weigh in on topics with personal opinions

there is a very important legacy in aesthetics of Marxist critique
[good place to start BTW is Macdonald Daly's -- 'A Primer in Marxist  
Aesthetics']
and I see no reason not to discuss the foundation of Marxist  
philosophy with other list members
in order for them to gain a better understanding and further engage  
in discussions that might include Marxist thought

I find that most of the anti-intellectualism on this list can be  
attributed one thing:
people's desire to turn the microsound list into a fanboy  
trainspotting list
because they would rather be 'entertained'
and don't want to challenged by philosophical discussions
because it is uncomfortable for them

if you want the fanboy sort of thing
I implore you to unsub from microsound and go start your own list on  
yahoogroups
there you will be free to announce your new mp3s, post software  
reviews, chat about all the cool new CD packaging
and send each other MySpace URL's
ad nauseam

I'm sorry to keep repeating this over and over but...
that is not why the founders started the microsound list

rigorous discussions on digital aesthetics are welcomed and  
encouraged here
you want fluff? go elsewhere

--Boundary_(ID_J+RjJHv7l/oYBuO98RMqZg)--

From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 21:12:06 2007
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Subject: Re: [microsound] [ot] jan 27 protest
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at risk for castigation for going off on a tangent, how do you like
the edirol r1?  i'm going to istanbul in april and am considering
purchase of a microsized recording device.  tia.

kevin paul
abq, nm

>
> i'm gonna be in boston- so i'll bring my edirol r1 and see if i can
> grab anything interesting ...
>
> --
> \js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>
>

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From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 21:06:47 2007
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From: Brent Colflesh <xxxxx.xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Fwd: IMPORTANT MESSAGE - illegal mp3s selling on
 http://boxmp3.net/
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Chris Bryan wrote:
> So, my label's releases are up for sale illegally on this website 2.
> I know there have been posts in the past regarding this happening
> before.  Anyone have any experience with what to do about this?
> -chris
> (1.8)sec.records
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Afe Records <xxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Date: Jan 26, 2007 2:12 PM
> Subject: IMPORTANT MESSAGE - illegal mp3s selling on http://boxmp3.net/
> To: xxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
> 
> 
> [Segue versione italiana]
> 
> Hello, I recently discovered this website: http://boxmp3.net/
> 
> They are illegally selling hundreds and hundreds of albums in mp3 format.
> 
> I was quite surprise to discover that some of my music is included along
> with many other well-known and lesser-known artists operating in the
> experimental/ambient/alternative scene.
> 
> I don't know what can be done to stop the unauthorized selling, but I think
> that the first step is to inform all the artists and labels.
> 
> I invite you to check if your music is available on such website (...and
> there is a high chance that it is, including albums released in very 
> limited
> editions...) and to spread this news to all your friends, musicians,
> newsgroups, myspace pages, etc.
> 
> Thanks for reading, ciao!
> 
> (8-) Andrea
> 
> 
> 
> Ciao, oggi ho scoperto l'esistenza di questo sito: http://boxmp3.net/
> 
> Su tale sito è possibile acquistare centinaia, migliaia di albums in 
> formato
> mp3.
> 
> Sono rimasto piuttosto sopreso di scoprire che anche alcuni miei dischi 
> sono
> scaricabili insieme a un sacco di altri albums di musicisti operanti nel
> settore della sperimentazione.
> 
> Non ho idea di che cosa si possa fare per fermare questa vendita non
> autorizzata, ma credo che il primo passo da fare sia quello di informare
> dell'accaduto il maggior numero possibile di musicisti ed etichette.
> 
> Vi invito a controllare se la vostra musica è disponibile sul sito in
> oggetto (...ed è molto probabile che lo sia, comprese album editi in
> pochissimi esemplari...) e a inoltrare questo messaggio a tutti i vostri
> contatti in ambito musicale e, soprattutto, newsgroups, forums, pagine
> myspace, etc.
> 
> Grazie per l'attenzione, ciao!
> 
> (8-) Andrea
> 
> Afe Records www.aferecords.com
> Andrea Marutti www.aferecords.com/am
> Amon / Never Known www.aferecords.com/ank
> The Afeman on MySpace www.myspace.com/afeman
> Afe Records on MySpace www.myspace.com/aferecords
> Afe Pins on MySpace www.myspace.com/afepins
> The Afeman's pictures on Flickr www.flickr.com/photos/afeman
> 
> Andrea Marutti
> Via Villoresi, 5
> 20143 Milano
> Italy
> 
> 
> 

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 http://boxmp3.net/
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So, my label's releases are up for sale illegally on this website 2.
I know there have been posts in the past regarding this happening
before.  Anyone have any experience with what to do about this?
-chris
(1.8)sec.records

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Afe Records <xxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Date: Jan 26, 2007 2:12 PM
Subject: IMPORTANT MESSAGE - illegal mp3s selling on http://boxmp3.net/
To: xxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx


[Segue versione italiana]

Hello, I recently discovered this website: http://boxmp3.net/

They are illegally selling hundreds and hundreds of albums in mp3 format.

I was quite surprise to discover that some of my music is included along
with many other well-known and lesser-known artists operating in the
experimental/ambient/alternative scene.

I don't know what can be done to stop the unauthorized selling, but I think
that the first step is to inform all the artists and labels.

I invite you to check if your music is available on such website (...and
there is a high chance that it is, including albums released in very limited
editions...) and to spread this news to all your friends, musicians,
newsgroups, myspace pages, etc.

Thanks for reading, ciao!

(8-) Andrea



Ciao, oggi ho scoperto l'esistenza di questo sito: http://boxmp3.net/

Su tale sito è possibile acquistare centinaia, migliaia di albums in formato
mp3.

Sono rimasto piuttosto sopreso di scoprire che anche alcuni miei dischi sono
scaricabili insieme a un sacco di altri albums di musicisti operanti nel
settore della sperimentazione.

Non ho idea di che cosa si possa fare per fermare questa vendita non
autorizzata, ma credo che il primo passo da fare sia quello di informare
dell'accaduto il maggior numero possibile di musicisti ed etichette.

Vi invito a controllare se la vostra musica è disponibile sul sito in
oggetto (...ed è molto probabile che lo sia, comprese album editi in
pochissimi esemplari...) e a inoltrare questo messaggio a tutti i vostri
contatti in ambito musicale e, soprattutto, newsgroups, forums, pagine
myspace, etc.

Grazie per l'attenzione, ciao!

(8-) Andrea

Afe Records www.aferecords.com
Andrea Marutti www.aferecords.com/am
Amon / Never Known www.aferecords.com/ank
The Afeman on MySpace www.myspace.com/afeman
Afe Records on MySpace www.myspace.com/aferecords
Afe Pins on MySpace www.myspace.com/afepins
The Afeman's pictures on Flickr www.flickr.com/photos/afeman

Andrea Marutti
Via Villoresi, 5
20143 Milano
Italy



-- 
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
(1.8)sec.records
www.1pt8.com    <---hey look, it's a .com
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Two (1.8)sec.records releases
featured on xstream-radio top 10
http://xstreamradio.free.fr/topten.htm
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|| 3x3is9 - Data Errors + Field Recordings
mp3 EP on Robotopera [o.o] ))))
http://robotopera.yearofthemachine.com/rop-003.php
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 19:30:01 2007
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Subject: Re: [microsound] [ot] jan 27 protest
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--- aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
> Watch out for this if u protest, your tax dollars may cook you alive
> in the very near future!

What happened to good ole tear gas???? There's nothing better than
propaganda to make people fearful of "non-lethal" weapons.

Actually it'd be awesome if the gov would use such a thing on US
citizens.. maybe then people would actually "do something".




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From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 19:09:17 2007
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From: aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] [ot] jan 27 protest
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Watch out for this if u protest, your tax dollars may cook you alive in 
the very near future!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6300985.stm

I wish more people would take the initiative, or at least get off of 
there asses and get involved.

I also think this would be a great subject matter for a Project.

aLEKs




On Jan 26, 2007, at 1:28 PM, john saylor wrote:

> hi
>
> On 1/26/07, Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>> maybe some interesting protest recordings could form the basis of a
>> new microsound project?
>
> i'm gonna be in boston- so i'll bring my edirol r1 and see if i can
> grab anything interesting ...
>
> -- 
> \js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]
>
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>


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From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 18:28:43 2007
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hi

On 1/26/07, Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> maybe some interesting protest recordings could form the basis of a
> new microsound project?

i'm gonna be in boston- so i'll bring my edirol r1 and see if i can
grab anything interesting ...

-- 
\js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]

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From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 17:54:42 2007
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:54:26 -0800
From: Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] [ot] jan 27 protest
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--Boundary_(ID_uoWU5tXDMKGXYG2MjlsEPg)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

to US citizens:
I encourage you to get out there and have your voice heard tomorrow
check this web site for info on a protest in a city near you:
http://www.unitedforpeace.org/

maybe some interesting protest recordings could form the basis of a  
new microsound project?

--Boundary_(ID_uoWU5tXDMKGXYG2MjlsEPg)--

From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 14:41:58 2007
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From: Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
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Great! It's especially hilarious since Al Gore is an Apple board member.

This quote is particularly appealing, and On Topic for this Off Topic thread:

"Someone important once said 'It is difficult to get a man to
understand the need for something when he already has it in his
pocket.'"

~Kyle


On 1/26/07, Milan Davidovic <xxxxx.xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> On 1/25/07, Milan Davidovic <xxxxx.xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > A bit more fun, in case you haven't seen it already...
> > http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2007/1/11cahr.html
>
> And more still:
>
> http://joyoftech.com/joyoftech/joyarchives/911.html
>
> --
> Milan Davidovic
> http://altmilan.blogspot.com
> http://www.terminus1525.ca/studio/view/2758
>
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>


-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
(())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
_____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO

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From ???@??? Fri Jan 26 12:18:41 2007
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On 1/25/07, Milan Davidovic <xxxxx.xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> A bit more fun, in case you haven't seen it already...
> http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2007/1/11cahr.html

And more still:

http://joyoftech.com/joyoftech/joyarchives/911.html

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
http://www.terminus1525.ca/studio/view/2758

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From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 20:45:36 2007
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From: gerwin <xxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] history of the middle class
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dude.

so you learned a grate deal from some listfolk on the various topics that have
been explored. good for you.

> As far as middle-class crap.  Read 'Lies My Teacher Told Me' by
> James W. Loewen.  I am still reading it and it will contradict
> all the crap you have been say thus far.

this is brilliant. it's just about the most inarticulate response to the
challenges posed by the current discussion that i can imagine. you *really*
put those left-wing wackos in their place. and once you're done reading that
important text, do report your findings to us. tell it like it is!

the degree of hostility to any kind of complex intellectual engagement or
rumination continues to amaze me.

what's up with that? where does that *fear* come from? what's grating you?

read a book.
make some connections.
bring the love.
don't be afraid.

gerwin.






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From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 20:32:25 2007
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:29:39 -0500
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Subject: Re: [microsound] iConsume
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good. shit. art.

http://www.clioawards.com/winners/index.cfm

On 25-Jan-07, at 3:16 PM, Steven McLeod wrote:

> "Good marketing/advertising" is designed for one thing only and  
> that is you to give the company your cash.  They are not concerned  
> with anything else. As an artform it is manipulative and uses  
> psycholgical techniques designed to make one believe their life  
> will be better as a result of buying into the product/lifestyle,  
> sounds like a shit form of art to me, be as well saying that the  
> way governments manipulate the populase can be an artform..'spose  
> one could say that, not my asthetic tho...
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Barknecht"  
> <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> To: <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 9:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [microsound] iConsume
>
>
>> Hallo,
>> Graham Miller hat gesagt: // Graham Miller wrote:
>>
>>> i just can't believe anyone of intelligence can't see marketing  
>>> as an
>>> art form unto itself.  it's not evil.  it's only bad when it's done
>>> poorly.  i love good advertising. apple computers has good
>>> advertising.  they understand aesthetics. fonts. graphic design.
>>> there is certainly not enough of it. i say more. not less.
>>
>> Aesthetics, fonts and graphic design are not marketing. Marketing  
>> uses
>> these things among other things to sell products, but that doesn't
>> make good or bad design equal to good or bad marketing.
>>
>> Ciao
>> -- 
>> Frank Barknecht                 _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.7/647 - Release Date:  
>> 23/01/2007 08:02
>>
>
>
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From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 20:16:34 2007
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Subject: Re: [microsound] iConsume
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"Good marketing/advertising" is designed for one thing only and that is you 
to give the company your cash.  They are not concerned with anything else. 
As an artform it is manipulative and uses psycholgical techniques designed 
to make one believe their life will be better as a result of buying into the 
product/lifestyle, sounds like a shit form of art to me, be as well saying 
that the way governments manipulate the populase can be an artform..'spose 
one could say that, not my asthetic tho...


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank Barknecht" <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [microsound] iConsume


> Hallo,
> Graham Miller hat gesagt: // Graham Miller wrote:
>
>> i just can't believe anyone of intelligence can't see marketing as an
>> art form unto itself.  it's not evil.  it's only bad when it's done
>> poorly.  i love good advertising. apple computers has good
>> advertising.  they understand aesthetics. fonts. graphic design.
>> there is certainly not enough of it. i say more. not less.
>
> Aesthetics, fonts and graphic design are not marketing. Marketing uses
> these things among other things to sell products, but that doesn't
> make good or bad design equal to good or bad marketing.
>
> Ciao
> -- 
> Frank Barknecht                 _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.7/647 - Release Date: 23/01/2007 
> 08:02
>
> 


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From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 20:15:37 2007
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--- isjtar <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> here's ten bucks most of us own a mac and now don't go pretending the
 
> marketing didn't get to you....

You owe me ten bucks..

The best thing about the apple ipods and stuff is that there is
pleothora of accesories.. I bought a cheaper mp3 player several years
ago and have never been able to find a usb car lighter adpater that
worked with it short of buying an invertor and even then I can't listen
while it freaking recharges.

So for the premium price of apple products you can be sure that you'll
beable to get all the realworld widgets you need to make use of it.

Marketing??? Whatever... my cellphone is 6 year old nokia that I only
recently discovered can send text messages..yeah! 

Adrian

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From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 19:56:24 2007
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I don't think anything about this has been posted here yet.

http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/009294.php

Don't have time to look further into it myself, and there's always a
danger that I'll forget, so here's the URL for anyone with free time
at the moment...

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
http://www.terminus1525.ca/studio/view/2758

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From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 16:10:31 2007
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Hahaha, that was quite amusing. I love McSweeny's, thanks for sharing.

~Kyle

On 1/25/07, Milan Davidovic <xxxxx.xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> On 1/19/07, emanuele de raymondi <xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDnIajyXDLs&mode=related&search=
>
> A bit more fun, in case you haven't seen it already...
>
> http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2007/1/11cahr.html
>
> --
> Milan Davidovic
> http://altmilan.blogspot.com
> http://www.terminus1525.ca/studio/view/2758
>
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-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
(())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
_____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO

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On 1/19/07, emanuele de raymondi <xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDnIajyXDLs&mode=related&search=

A bit more fun, in case you haven't seen it already...

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2007/1/11cahr.html

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com
http://www.terminus1525.ca/studio/view/2758

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From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 04:15:53 2007
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:15:41 -0600
From: Rod Stasick <xxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
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The "sound 101" site mentioned below is pretty amusing - take the test!

[links and formatting in original]

http://tinyurl.com/2mkhmt

January 24, 2007, 10:00 am

Most Horrible Sound in the World
By Tom Zeller Jr.

A British researcher says he has uncovered what he
believes is the most horrible sound in the world — or
at least it was rated the most horrible of 34 sample
sounds listened to by over a million Internet
participants over the last year.

A professor at Britain's Salford University, Trevor
Cox, claims to have reached a new plateau in the
understanding of human hearing and acoustics, based on
a year of input from of over a million online test
subjects: Vomiting is the worst sound ever.

Or, at least, vomiting as recorded for Professor Cox's
acoustics tests, and as performed by a hired actor
using a bucket of diluted baked beans to recreate the
sound of cascading slop.

“I am driven by a scientific curiosity about why
people shudder at certain sounds and not others,”
Professor Cox said at his Web site. "We are
pre-programmed to be repulsed by horrible things such
as vomiting, as it is fundamental to staying alive to
avoid nasty stuff but, interestingly, the voting
patterns from the sound did not match expectation for
a pure‘disgust’reaction.”

(Readers who feel brave, and wish to listen to the
foul sound clip can do so here, but be warned: it
sounds, well, like someone vomiting.)

As Britain's Guardian newspaper put it today:

The study...sought opinions on 34 sounds at the Web
site http://www.sound101.org in the hope of learning what
makes certain noises so objectionable...

The researchers expected sounds that evoke disgust to
be near the top of the list, such as vomiting,
coughing and spitting, eating an apple with the mouth
open and a lengthy blast from a whoopee cushion.
Revulsion to such sounds is partly governed by culture
and partly an evolutionary legacy that helps us avoid
picking up diseases.

Indeed, the question of just how much of the “disgust”
response is nature and how much is nurture has been a
matter of some speculation. In 2004, researchers at
the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine,
writing in the journal Biology Letters, suggested that
they’d found evidence that the human proclivity to
become disgusted by certain things — say, feces or
rotting meat — was an instinctive and evolutionary
response, developed to protect us from the risk of
disease.

Other researchers, BBC News pointed out at the time,
attribute the disgust response to learned behavior.
Clark McCauley, a professor of psychology at Bryn Mawr
University College in Pennsylvania, spoke to The BBC:

“What people today find disgusting goes far beyond
what can be understood in the evolutionary sense,”
Professor McCauley told BBC News Online.

“This biological mechanism was taken up and extended
to produce a much broader mechanism of revulsion at
different cultural horizons.

“For example, what counts for appropriate care of hair
in our society is not the same as in some other
societies.”

(Readers who want to test their own stomachs can take
a “Disgust Test” at the BBC, in which they are invited
to rate a series of images — from a dirty soccer ball
to rotting teeth — on a scale from “Not Disgusted” to
“Very Disgusted.”)

As for Professor Cox's disgusting sounds study, it's
worth noting that the classic bad sound — fingernails
on a chalkboard — ranked only 16th among the field of
34 horrible sounds. (Note, too, that researchers have
explored whether human revulsion to that sound derives
from its similarity to the warning cries of macaque
monkeys — the idea being that our response to the
scraping might be some residual reflex handed down
from our ancestors.)

Ranking No. 2, just after vomiting, was the sound of
microphone feedback. And tying at number three were
the sounds of many babies crying, and what was simply
called a “horrible scraping” sound.
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From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 01:40:44 2007
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Jon,

I fully agree.

We have been reminded far too many times from Kim himself that this is a thread for microsound and the announce list is a different thread.  I have learned a grate deal from most everyone's feedback on the various topics that have been explored.  

As far as middle-class crap.  Read 'Lies My Teacher Told Me' by James W. Loewen.  I am still reading it and it will contradict all the crap you have been say thus far.

I just may bump off this thread again.

Derek


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jon <xxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx.xx>
> To: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: Re: [microsound] history of the middle class
> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:48:26 +1100
> 
> 
> i have to admit, even as someone who is really interested in politics,
> history and critical theory, it's getting really tiresome the way
> marxist rant clogs this list up every few weeks.  not only that, but
> it's really trite, too; and that figures, really, considering this is a
> list about microsound, not about political theory (so it should follow
> that it isn't quite the right forum to perfect an understanding of the
> term 'bourgeois', for example).  worse still, anyone who doesn't agree
> or who contradicts this understanding of the world / society /
> microsound is shouted down in a torrent of boring links and shabby
> textual references.
> 
> thank goodness for the handful of genuinely interesting people still
> posting to this list.  despite how much anyone wants to make it so,
> microsound isn't 'left-wing' music.  you should know well enough that a
> style can't seal in meaning.  all your references to punk should have
> taught you that.
> 
> best wishes,
> jon.
> 
> ..
> dizzydonor.org
> 
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>


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From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 00:48:39 2007
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i have to admit, even as someone who is really interested in politics,
history and critical theory, it's getting really tiresome the way
marxist rant clogs this list up every few weeks.  not only that, but
it's really trite, too; and that figures, really, considering this is a
list about microsound, not about political theory (so it should follow
that it isn't quite the right forum to perfect an understanding of the
term 'bourgeois', for example).  worse still, anyone who doesn't agree
or who contradicts this understanding of the world / society /
microsound is shouted down in a torrent of boring links and shabby
textual references.  

thank goodness for the handful of genuinely interesting people still
posting to this list.  despite how much anyone wants to make it so,
microsound isn't 'left-wing' music.  you should know well enough that a
style can't seal in meaning.  all your references to punk should have
taught you that.

best wishes,
jon.

...
dizzydonor.org

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From ???@??? Wed Jan 24 23:32:45 2007
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> I think that the 'Middle Class' was a tactical construction to combat
> the growing threat of Marxism in the Post-WWII Western world.
well it's a complex issue
post WWII american businesses found that there would be difficulty in  
'opening' european markets due to the proliferation of workers unions
which was an outgrowth of and directly influenced by communist/ 
socialist/anarchist/marxist (I'll call this 'leftist' for ease of  
typing) parties
so the US devised this program called the Marshall Plan
which had two purposes:
one was the help rebuild europe (in our own likeness) thereby  
establishing markets for the US overproduction of goods
the other was to bust the unions and discourage 'leftist' political  
philosophy from spreading in europe
thus making it cheaper for american businesses to operate there

in order to understand the US situation you need to read a little  
about labor unions in the US
most unions were rank and file pretty much 'leftist'

while leftists have always had problems here in the US post- 
industrial revolution
it wasn't until after WWII and the start of the cold war
that the US started to bust the unions here as well
witness the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947

shortly afterwards McCarthy was made the head witch-hunter of the red  
scare
and further made it verboten to be a leftist and/or join a union  
without suspicion of being a communist

so when you use the term 'middle class'
you have to realize that the term changed its meaning over the years  
(~20C onwards)
from meaning blue collar/working class
to a more inclusive term meaning blue and white collar workers
so middle class was not something that was invented in the US
but rather is a stratification which occurs under capitalism


> Because socialist trends were developing and outright during the first
> half of the 20th Century, there was a growing concern that the unruly
> masses would rebel and take down the Bourgeoisie class.
not really the bourgeoisie but the elite, ruling class, the  
capitalists, the wealthy, the captains of industry

>
> The easiest solution to this was to extend the concept of 'property
> ownership' to include niceties like washing machines, personal
> vehicles, houses, and the like.
in marxism the phrase 'private property' doesn't refer to cars,  
appliances, etc
this often confuses people
'private property' refers to the 'means of production' owned by  
capitalists
i.e., it is privately owned and not state owned
private property refers to the printing presses, assembly lines,  
automotive plants, steel foundries, etc owned by private corporations
the items you mention are better termed 'commodities'
the phenomenon you refer to is called 'commodity fetishism' (the  
desire to own goods aroused by marketing rather than need)

> Then the dominant class could point to
> these trinkets (which by no means match the real idea of property
> ownership in terms of means of production)
see above

> and say, 'the Commies want
> to take away your right to own these things,' and thus scare the lowly
> serfs into protecting their minuscule treasures from the Red Devils.
yes...but this is because they twisted the meaning of private property
this is often used to further try and spread misinformation about  
leftist politics
it is the means of production that should belong to the state which  
is made up of the people
which we have mini-me versions of in the US in the form of workers  
collectives and cooperatives



> So, in a sense, Marx DID predict the future.
marx wasn't the first to have figured out where all this was  
headed...there were other thinkers in England and France who had  
covered similar ground but were less well known


> But by writing it down,
> the elite power structure was able to hedge the flow of history by
> offering a palatable alternative by leveraging marketing, debt, and
> greed.
that all depends on what you mean by a palatable alternative...?
is capitalism really a palatable alternative to self-governed autonomy?

you also have to figure into this the aspect of societal control  
exercised by religion which set a precedent in offering consolation  
to the down-trodden and needy
while it kept aristocracy and merchants and church elite fat and  
powerful for many years before capitalism evolved (due to mass  
production via machines)
once a system of control is in place is it easy to replace or expand  
that system

capitalism is anathema to what it started out to be: a system of self- 
correcting free markets which would benefit all citizens who  
participated
it has turned into corporate feudalism in which only the top 2%  
benefit at the expense of the rest




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From ???@??? Wed Jan 24 17:52:41 2007
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Subject: [microsound] Soundbikes
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Thought y'all might find this interesting.

R.

STEIM presents a workshop and a lecture by soundbike artist Kaspar König.

Soundbikes - BIKE YOUR BEAT
by Kaspar König

A workshop in which do-it-yourself manipulation 
of ordinairy bicycles leads to high-end 
sound-generators and performing instruments. 
Bring a bike and transform it together with the 
knowledge and enthousiasm of inventor-artist 
Kaspar König. 

Creating acoustic extensions for the bicycle 
sounds like a contradiction-in-terms to the 
design of a bicycle. In this workshop everybody 
is invited to discover the many sounds hidden in 
the bicycle itself and the bicycling. To make a 
regular bicycle-sound we can easily neglect the 
maintainance of a bicycle. By not only turning 
the bicycle upside down but by actively 
adding sound-sensors, we'll discover the 
possibilities of soundbiking. Add-ons can be 
everything from a playing-card and laundry 
wedges, to fully powered amplification for 
strings, microphones and all other things that 
fit the conditions of the soundbicycle and its 
creative maker.

How can a bicycle brake become a brake beat?
By turning the wheel regularly, a bicycle likely 
becomes a time-pulse or measure. By finding the 
right spots to control the sound input, more 
musical patterns can be discovered while the 
wheel is turning. Now it's up to our imagination 
to invent all kinds of little things we could try 
to mount on the existing mechanisms as well as 
discover new mechanisms.

Can every bicycle become a musical instrument?
Basically yes, if some parts are still rotating, 
sounds can be created. Although a full functional 
bicycle can ride on the streets and the street is 
the best trigger for the soundbike!

Is there a composition in the street?
That is a good question. For many reasons I 
believe several streets sound better then others 
with and without the use of a soundbike, 
depending on the charactaristics of the bike and 
the street. Drive your soundbike outside and 
experience the biggest score of the world: the 
street!  Let your ear decide! 

Location: STEIM, Achtergracht 19, Amsterdam
Dates: Monday February 19 through Thursday February 22
Time: 10:00 - 17:00h
Fee: ¤ 100

The fee for the workshop is ¤100, registration 
can be done only through the STEIM website, at 
http://www.steim.org/steim/workshops.php .
For questions please email xxxxx@xxxxx.xx or call +31 206228690.


Also:

AUDIOSPORT Lecture

A lecture on the works of Kaspar König: Recycling 
firehose, Transmitting Object Behaviours, 
Architectural Acoustic research (xiloseum), Mr. 
Bend and
How sound meets sport in the festival called Audiolympics, Beijing 08.

Location: STEIM, Utrechtsedwarsstraat 134, Amsterdam
Date: Tuesday February 20
Time: 20:30h
Entrance: free


And:

At the Y-helling (NDSM) on Saturday February 24

A concert with Kaspar König and guests playing 
the soundbikes and the circuitbended 
hardwarehacks like the Audioshaver from China.
More information www.kasparkoenig.com



Biography

Kaspar König (1975)  is a dutch artist living in 
Berlin and Maastricht . He studied Industrial 
Design at the UdK in Berlin. He is interested in 
the goods for daily use and their sound-universe. 
He invents instruments like the Soundbikes and 
Mr. Bend and he recycles firehoses in a delicate 
way. Furthermore he composes soundpieces for 
(dance) theatre.  Recently he started working as 
a lecturer at the Cafa in Beijing. He also 
organizes the Audiolympics, an off-festival 
during the Olympic Games, with the contribution 
of artists on the threshold between music and 
sports. www.kasparkoenig.com



To unsubscribe from this list please go to 
http://list.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/steim

STEIM                    
(studio for electro instrumental music)
(studio voor elektro instrumentale muziek)    

Achtergracht 19
1017 WL Amsterdam
The Netherlands

Tel: 020-6228690
Fax: 020-6264262
Email: xxxxx@xxxxx.xx
Website: www.steim.nl

_______________________________________________
STEIM mailing list
xxxxx@xxxx.xxxxxx.xx
https://list.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/steim
-- 

--
Website: http://www.warbaby.com
(Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
Blog: http://raggedwings.blogspot.com/
Nifty Stuff: http://www.cafepress.com/warbaby
--

"Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and 
were good, God would permit us to be pirates."

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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 22:14:21 2007
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From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] society of debt
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http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1581036,00.html?cnn=yes

the iPhone suddenly doesn't look so bad...

g.

On 22-Jan-07, at 4:12 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:

>> I'm personally curious how companies use marketing to perpetuate the
>> 'society of debt,' which encourages all walks of life in the United
>> States to relinquish financial freedoms in the 'interest' of  
>> acquiring
>> loans to pay for goods that they cannot immediately afford (no pun
>> intended).
> yes this is a very interesting topic
> in a nutshell:
> during WWII the engines of production had been running full blast
> it was the first time since the depression that the US had been  
> producing at that level
> but of course most of the goods we were producing were going to the  
> war effort:
> bombs, planes, uniforms, bullets, guns, walkie-talkies, etc.
> were all being produced by a machine that had not existed before
> this was the birth of the US military-industrial complex
> companies had gotten fat off the war
> and once it was over and
> the soldiers came back home from the war
> they needed to work
> so factories were retooled for producing consumer goods
> which had to produce x amount to be profitable
> so we 'rebuilt' Europe and opened those markets to american goods
> but in order to keep the home fires burning
> we also needed to open US markets as well
> so the automobile was marketed heavily and sold as part of the  
> american dream
> as well as appliances for stay-at-home moms raising the kids
> being born after WWII
> this was called the 'baby boom'
> problem was americans weren't consuming as much as corporations  
> needed them to
> so the credit card was introduced
> the first 'general purpose' credit or charge card in the US was the  
> Diners Club card -- introduced in 1950
>
> check out a good documentary here:
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/view/
>
> so americans could now consume more than they produced
> in other words: they were able to buy more than their salaries  
> would allow them to
> and we have been on a steadily rising curve of consumption
> we consume way more than we produce
> and in order to sustain this
> we are in debt
> massive debt
> as a nation and as a society
> and marketing greases the engine of consumer debt
> by making us believe that we need more than we actually do
> which is a waste of resources and contributes to global warming
>
> another good documentary:
> http://www.endofsuburbia.com/
>
>
> "Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of  
> actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing,  
> synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or  
> generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or  
> communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary  
> form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend  
> subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision,  
> consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth,  
> breadth, and fairness."
>
>
>


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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 22:03:42 2007
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This is turning into a delightful discussion that touches some deep
issues that have been plaguing my thoughts lately.

I've been toying with an idea lately that somehow sprung up in my
mind, but is more than likely mentioned in a paper or journal
somewhere that I'm unaware of.

I think that the 'Middle Class' was a tactical construction to combat
the growing threat of Marxism in the Post-WWII Western world.

Because socialist trends were developing and outright during the first
half of the 20th Century, there was a growing concern that the unruly
masses would rebel and take down the Bourgeoisie class.

The easiest solution to this was to extend the concept of 'property
ownership' to include niceties like washing machines, personal
vehicles, houses, and the like. Then the dominant class could point to
these trinkets (which by no means match the real idea of property
ownership in terms of means of production) and say, 'the Commies want
to take away your right to own these things,' and thus scare the lowly
serfs into protecting their minuscule treasures from the Red Devils.

So, in a sense, Marx DID predict the future. But by writing it down,
the elite power structure was able to hedge the flow of history by
offering a palatable alternative by leveraging marketing, debt, and
greed.

Thoughts on this?

~Kyle

On 1/22/07, Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> > I'm personally curious how companies use marketing to perpetuate the
> > 'society of debt,' which encourages all walks of life in the United
> > States to relinquish financial freedoms in the 'interest' of acquiring
> > loans to pay for goods that they cannot immediately afford (no pun
> > intended).
> yes this is a very interesting topic
> in a nutshell:
> during WWII the engines of production had been running full blast
> it was the first time since the depression that the US had been
> producing at that level
> but of course most of the goods we were producing were going to the
> war effort:
> bombs, planes, uniforms, bullets, guns, walkie-talkies, etc.
> were all being produced by a machine that had not existed before
> this was the birth of the US military-industrial complex
> companies had gotten fat off the war
> and once it was over and
> the soldiers came back home from the war
> they needed to work
> so factories were retooled for producing consumer goods
> which had to produce x amount to be profitable
> so we 'rebuilt' Europe and opened those markets to american goods
> but in order to keep the home fires burning
> we also needed to open US markets as well
> so the automobile was marketed heavily and sold as part of the
> american dream
> as well as appliances for stay-at-home moms raising the kids
> being born after WWII
> this was called the 'baby boom'
> problem was americans weren't consuming as much as corporations
> needed them to
> so the credit card was introduced
> the first 'general purpose' credit or charge card in the US was the
> Diners Club card -- introduced in 1950
>
> check out a good documentary here:
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/view/
>
> so americans could now consume more than they produced
> in other words: they were able to buy more than their salaries would
> allow them to
> and we have been on a steadily rising curve of consumption
> we consume way more than we produce
> and in order to sustain this
> we are in debt
> massive debt
> as a nation and as a society
> and marketing greases the engine of consumer debt
> by making us believe that we need more than we actually do
> which is a waste of resources and contributes to global warming
>
> another good documentary:
> http://www.endofsuburbia.com/
>
>
> "Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of
> actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing,
> synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or
> generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or
> communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary
> form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend
> subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency,
> relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness."
>
>
>
>
>


-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 21:12:37 2007
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> I'm personally curious how companies use marketing to perpetuate the
> 'society of debt,' which encourages all walks of life in the United
> States to relinquish financial freedoms in the 'interest' of acquiring
> loans to pay for goods that they cannot immediately afford (no pun
> intended).
yes this is a very interesting topic
in a nutshell:
during WWII the engines of production had been running full blast
it was the first time since the depression that the US had been  
producing at that level
but of course most of the goods we were producing were going to the  
war effort:
bombs, planes, uniforms, bullets, guns, walkie-talkies, etc.
were all being produced by a machine that had not existed before
this was the birth of the US military-industrial complex
companies had gotten fat off the war
and once it was over and
the soldiers came back home from the war
they needed to work
so factories were retooled for producing consumer goods
which had to produce x amount to be profitable
so we 'rebuilt' Europe and opened those markets to american goods
but in order to keep the home fires burning
we also needed to open US markets as well
so the automobile was marketed heavily and sold as part of the  
american dream
as well as appliances for stay-at-home moms raising the kids
being born after WWII
this was called the 'baby boom'
problem was americans weren't consuming as much as corporations  
needed them to
so the credit card was introduced
the first 'general purpose' credit or charge card in the US was the  
Diners Club card -- introduced in 1950

check out a good documentary here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/view/

so americans could now consume more than they produced
in other words: they were able to buy more than their salaries would  
allow them to
and we have been on a steadily rising curve of consumption
we consume way more than we produce
and in order to sustain this
we are in debt
massive debt
as a nation and as a society
and marketing greases the engine of consumer debt
by making us believe that we need more than we actually do
which is a waste of resources and contributes to global warming

another good documentary:
http://www.endofsuburbia.com/


"Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of  
actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing,  
synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or  
generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or  
communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary  
form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend  
subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency,  
relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness."



--Boundary_(ID_yxUxYFmOf14bmyKz//Q3hQ)--

From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 21:01:26 2007
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Subject: Re: [microsound] ten bucks
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ah but you do use a mac!  and you are pretending the marketing didn't  
get to you.
i said:
> here's ten bucks most of us own a mac and now don't go pretending  
> the marketing didn't get to you....
and i'd argue that part of the marketing towards beginners is  
usability, osx-unix towards advanced users.
of course they are just nice features too.

look, it's all the same to me, but i'd never go as far as (for  
myself) stating that i'm immune to marketing just because i'm  
critical towards it.
as you stated, it works on so many levels.

you're going to have to do better than that ; )

Op 22-jan-07, om 21:44 heeft Kim Cascone het volgende geschreven:

> a friends Dad worked for IBM for many years
> back in 1979 or so I helped him unpack and set up the first IBM  
> computer sold on the market
> I much preferred my KIM-1 single board microcomputer on which I had  
> taught myself Assembly Language
>
> in the late 80's I had been working as a sound editor in the film  
> industry
> most people in film sound were very reluctant to make the switch  
> from 35mm mag to digital
> they didn't think they were smart enough to work a computer
> but Apple was invading the post production environment via a sound  
> editor called 'Alchemy' by Donny Blank
> then Q-Sheet, Sound Designer and finally Sound Tools by Digidesign  
> which then became Pro Tools
>
> but it wasn't until 1989 that I bought my first Mac
> it was more than I could afford and I wrote a Filemaker database to  
> track sales and inventory for my company Silent Records
> we ran Silent on it for a year or so until salespeople needed  
> individual access to the database
> then we needed to design catalogs and CD covers
> then I started mastering all the CD's on the label
> and we kept buying more and more Mac's
>
> so I can safely say that my use of Mac's was never really driven by  
> the mystification created by Apple
>
> but more of what OS was simpler for salespeople and artists to use  
> -- which at that time was Apple not Microsoft
>
> I now use both Linux and OS X because they are both based on UNIX  
> not because the marketing 'got to me'
>
> so please Paypal me 10 bucks
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>


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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 20:45:13 2007
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a friends Dad worked for IBM for many years
back in 1979 or so I helped him unpack and set up the first IBM  
computer sold on the market
I much preferred my KIM-1 single board microcomputer on which I had  
taught myself Assembly Language

in the late 80's I had been working as a sound editor in the film  
industry
most people in film sound were very reluctant to make the switch from  
35mm mag to digital
they didn't think they were smart enough to work a computer
but Apple was invading the post production environment via a sound  
editor called 'Alchemy' by Donny Blank
then Q-Sheet, Sound Designer and finally Sound Tools by Digidesign  
which then became Pro Tools

but it wasn't until 1989 that I bought my first Mac
it was more than I could afford and I wrote a Filemaker database to  
track sales and inventory for my company Silent Records
we ran Silent on it for a year or so until salespeople needed  
individual access to the database
then we needed to design catalogs and CD covers
then I started mastering all the CD's on the label
and we kept buying more and more Mac's

so I can safely say that my use of Mac's was never really driven by  
the mystification created by Apple

but more of what OS was simpler for salespeople and artists to use --  
which at that time was Apple not Microsoft

I now use both Linux and OS X because they are both based on UNIX not  
because the marketing 'got to me'

so please Paypal me 10 bucks
  

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For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 20:43:25 2007
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Subject: Re: [microsound] iConsume
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I love this thread. Keep it up.

 
Peter Lasell
Web Design, Illustration, Digital Audio
www.peterlasell.net





 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html 
--Boundary_(ID_UUfMGqAQUsfVbkHvR3HvlA)--

From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 20:10:49 2007
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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:10:32 -0600 (CST)
From: Mika Martini <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] SORRY FOR "difusion||pueblonuevo||20.01.07"
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sorry list, its a mistake.
   
  mika.


      + + + + + + + + + + + + + 
[M!M] [CHILE]
  [www.pueblonuevo.cl]
   
   
   




 __________________________________________________
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! 
Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ 
--Boundary_(ID_0RiFz4d5Jg9WSGUrsOPuIg)--

From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 19:53:58 2007
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noticias || news || pueblo nuevo netlabel || www.pueblonuevo.cldifusion 20.01.07
cartelera de presentaciones en vivo / live_acts
ultimos lanzamientos / last releases
novedades / news
sitios recomendados / recommended"La velocidad desinfla la acción crítica. El capitalismo requiere de la estupidez para generar mayor consumo. La falta de pensamiento crítico genera mayor beneficio." || Charles Esche ||

Hola Microsound 
Luego de un breve receso, donde aprovechamos de revisar la base de datos de emails, hemos vuelto con los informativos de nuestras actividades. Nuevamente les reitero que si NO DESEAN RECIBIR MAS EMAILS, simplemente respondan NO+ en el subject. Cualquier comentario es bien recibido. Disfruten el verano...


cartelera de presentaciones en vivo / live_acts

Martes 23 eneroCiclo Pueblo Nuevo en Bluebird
Freddy Musri
ver flyer >> http://www.pueblonuevo.cl/images/Flyer_ciclo_bluebird.jpgBluebird Restobar.
Av. Providencia 1670-b, Galería El Patio, Stgo. 22:00 hrs. / $ gratis



Martes 30 eneroLanzamiento "Presente EP" / Musica y visuales
Equipo (Cristobal Saavedra + visuales de Michelle BossySala 2 SCD Bellavista.
20:00 hrs / $ GRATIS



Martes 30 eneroCiclo Pueblo Nuevo en Bluebird
Hans Carstens
ver flyer >> http://www.pueblonuevo.cl/images/Flyer_ciclo_bluebird.jpgBluebird Restobar.
Av. Providencia 1670-b, Galería El Patio, Stgo. 22:00 hrs. / $ gratis



Sabado 03 febreroCiclo Pueblo Nuevo en Bluebird
Mika Martini + Alisu + Equipo

Bluebird Restobar.
Av. Providencia 1670-b, Galería El Patio, Stgo. 22:00 hrs. / $ gratis



ultimos lanzamientos / last releases

08.01.2007[vg003] antipublicidad
http://www.pueblonuevo.cl/pn_site/index_vg003.htmstreet art, stencil.acuario [cl]


29.12.2006[pn012] voyage ep
http://www.pueblonuevo.cl/pn_site/index_pn012.htmminimal.d.soul [de]


20.12.2006[pn011] presente ep
http://www.pueblonuevo.cl/pn_site/index_pn011.htmminimal, idm, electro, experimental.equipo [cl]



novedades / news

06.01.2007Pueblo Nuevo es seleccionado entre los ganadores del concurso DIRAC. En Abril Mika Martini, Danieto y Alisu inician gira a Mexico por tres semanas, tocando en las ciudades de Mexico DF, Morelia, Guadalajara y Tijuana. Pronto mas info...


29.12.2006Photo report Pueblo Nuevo en Buenos Aires, Argentina [Hotel Youkali]
http://www.pueblonuevo.cl/pn_site/index_news_youkali.htm




sitios recomendados / recommended

http://www.amencoma.cl [cl]http://www.theremyn4.com [pe]http://www.electrograph.gr [gr]


http://www.impar.cl [cl]http://www.chiletransparente.cl [cl]http://www.ertza.net [es]


http://www.manziping.cl [cl]http://www.neurotyka.org [cl]http://www.mus.cl [cl]



Hasta la proxima, saludos!
Mika Martini & Pueblo Nuevo Crew
visita / visit:
http://www.pueblonuevo.cl
--Boundary_(ID_R4bhHbPQP5RTSNqzNB2bTw)--

From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 17:24:31 2007
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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:23:40 -0600
From: Jason Hollis <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] That will be quite enough.
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Too bad a few pompous cunts fee like they have to dominate every discussion,
or pollute it with irrelevant off topic bullshit.
Like, say, the maintainers.
I'll miss a few of you.
Bye now.

~!J!




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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 16:33:15 2007
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From: Frank Barknecht <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] ubuntustudio & 4
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Hallo,
xxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx hat gesagt: // xxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx wrote:

> I am about to set up a new mac powerpc  with OS X 10.4.8 and a linux
> distribution with Parallel. I am downloading pure:dyne now. Does anyone
> have any opinions about whether pure:dyne or ubuntu would be better to
> run? I am working primarily with pd.

The nice thing about pure:dyne is that it's a live CD, which means,
that you don't need to install it to disk (but you can do so, if you
like). AFAIK pure:dyne is one of the small number of Linux live CDs
which actually boot on Intel-Macs. 

However pure:dyne also is still in development and may have some rough
edges, especially on Intel-Macs. It probably is wise to subscribe to
the pure:dyne mailing list to get support from the makers. 

Personally I'm not too fond of Ubuntu, but that's because I'm really
old school when it comes to Linuxes: I just need a command line and
I'm happy, I don't like all the graphical setup tools which come
included in standard Ubuntu. However it's a great distribution for
people who are new to Linux. The included Pd and Pd externals packages
are a bit limited, though, and you may be better off in the long run
if you install you're own version. This means: compiling, but
compiling stuff is really not hard on Linux because all needed tools
are already included and the triplet "configure && make && make
install" is just as familiar to Linux users as double-clicking
setup.exe is to Windows users. (And besides: For installing standard
software packages, Ubuntu or Debian have even more comfortable tools
like "Synaptic")

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht                 _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 16:09:09 2007
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I am about to set up a new mac powerpc  with OS X 10.4.8 and a linux
distribution with Parallel. I am downloading pure:dyne now. Does anyone
have any opinions about whether pure:dyne or ubuntu would be better to
run? I am working primarily with pd.


> Hallo,
> Kyle Klipowicz hat gesagt: // Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
>
>> Looks good, I can't wait for it!
>
> Why wait? Ubuntustudio is just an Ubuntu with some special
> preconfiguration and probably a kernel patched for insanely low
> latencies. You can also install Ubuntu for now, or Debian or 64Studio
> from http://64studio.com/ or run a pure:dyne live CD:
> http://puredyne.goto10.org/
>
> But I suppose you know that already. ;)
>
> Ciao
> --
>  Frank Barknecht                 _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>



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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 16:01:48 2007
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Hallo,
Kyle Klipowicz hat gesagt: // Kyle Klipowicz wrote:

> Looks good, I can't wait for it!

Why wait? Ubuntustudio is just an Ubuntu with some special
preconfiguration and probably a kernel patched for insanely low
latencies. You can also install Ubuntu for now, or Debian or 64Studio
from http://64studio.com/ or run a pure:dyne live CD:
http://puredyne.goto10.org/

But I suppose you know that already. ;) 

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht                 _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 15:49:48 2007
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hi

On 1/22/07, Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
> she was quite insane, i'll give you that.

just like xenakis ... [or cage, or george clinton, or ...]

it's pretty easy to reduce her [or anyone] to a glib dismissal. much
more difficult to try and understand what drove her so, and what kind
of relevance those ideas may or may not have for us now.

-- 
\js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]

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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 15:17:47 2007
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Looks good, I can't wait for it!

~Kyle

On 1/21/07, Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> http://ubuntustudio.org/
>
> also check out the film '4' by Ilya Khrzhanovsky
> very nice (although sometimes a tad overbearing) sound design
>
>
>


-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 14:57:07 2007
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yes. she was quite insane, i'll give you that.

On 22-Jan-07, at 9:44 AM, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:

> I did read almost the complete 'Atlas Shrugged' by Ayn Rand, until I
> got stuck on that damn 80 page brainwashingly repetitive John Galt
> speech and realized that Ayn Rand was a lunatic reacting to her
> twisted, idealist fascist upbringing with an equal and oppositely
> idealist fascist reaction.
>
> ~Kyle
>
> On 1/21/07, Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
>> now go out a read ayn rand like good little children:)
>>
>> g.
> -- 
>
> http://theradioproject.com
> http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
>
> (((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
> (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
> ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
> _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
> ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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I did read almost the complete 'Atlas Shrugged' by Ayn Rand, until I
got stuck on that damn 80 page brainwashingly repetitive John Galt
speech and realized that Ayn Rand was a lunatic reacting to her
twisted, idealist fascist upbringing with an equal and oppositely
idealist fascist reaction.

~Kyle

On 1/21/07, Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
> now go out a read ayn rand like good little children:)
>
> g.
-- 

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Wait, is this a sarcastic joke? The operative word is 'new
technology,' I suppose. Isn't a laptop fairly new?

Maybe Kim's got something on this technology fetishism.

~Kyle

On 1/21/07, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
> isjtar wrote:
> > exactly. besides i've still to meet a laptop performer who doesn't get
> > kicks from new tech.
>
> i'm a laptop performer. i don't get kicks from new technology.
>
-- 

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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 13:27:56 2007
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Hallo,
Graham Miller hat gesagt: // Graham Miller wrote:

> i just can't believe anyone of intelligence can't see marketing as an  
> art form unto itself.  it's not evil.  it's only bad when it's done  
> poorly.  i love good advertising. apple computers has good  
> advertising.  they understand aesthetics. fonts. graphic design.  
> there is certainly not enough of it. i say more. not less.

Aesthetics, fonts and graphic design are not marketing. Marketing uses
these things among other things to sell products, but that doesn't
make good or bad design equal to good or bad marketing.

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht                 _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 09:07:16 2007
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Damian Stewart wrote:

>i'm a laptop performer.

Is that something like being a lap dancer?

R.
-- 

--
Website: http://www.warbaby.com
(Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
Blog: http://raggedwings.blogspot.com/
Nifty Stuff: http://www.cafepress.com/warbaby
--

"Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would 
permit us to be pirates."

          - Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi


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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 05:43:53 2007
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dead dinosaurs! i don't hear them complaining.

besides, what else are dead dinosaurs good for other than turning  
them into iPhones!


On 22-Jan-07, at 12:34 AM, Damian Stewart wrote:

> Graham Miller wrote:
>
>>> Excessive resource consumption.
>> don't worry - i'm sure they'll make enough iPhones for everyone:)
>
> Um. That's exactly my point. Each iPhone uses enormous amounts of  
> fresh water and enormous amounts of dead dinosaurs, plus  
> (especially once you include shipping) results in the injection of  
> enormous amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.
>
> Err, unless that's what you were saying anyway :-)
>
> -- 
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
>
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed
>
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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 05:35:00 2007
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Graham Miller wrote:

>> Excessive resource consumption.
> 
> don't worry - i'm sure they'll make enough iPhones for everyone:)

Um. That's exactly my point. Each iPhone uses enormous amounts of fresh 
water and enormous amounts of dead dinosaurs, plus (especially once you 
include shipping) results in the injection of enormous amounts of carbon 
dioxide into the atmosphere.

Err, unless that's what you were saying anyway :-)

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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--Boundary_(ID_V5EpsK8PWTm92LCZ2mrlsA)
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http://ubuntustudio.org/

also check out the film '4' by Ilya Khrzhanovsky
very nice (although sometimes a tad overbearing) sound design

--Boundary_(ID_V5EpsK8PWTm92LCZ2mrlsA)--

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>
>> besides, what's so wrong with commodity fetishism?
>
> Excessive resource consumption.

don't worry - i'm sure they'll make enough iPhones for everyone:)

>
> -- 
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
>
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed
>
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Graham Miller wrote:

> to assume that every corporation is made up of 
> the Evil Minions Of Commodity Fetishism is pretty naive unto itself. 

An argument (after The Corporation) can be made here that even though a 
particular corporation isn't full of the Evil Minions of Commodity 
Fetishism, this doesn't mean that the actions of said company don't require 
or bring about commodity fetishism.

I'd say that technology companies, and in particular Apple, thrive on 
commodity fetishism, and to some extent require it to stay in business. iWant.

> besides, what's so wrong with commodity fetishism?  

Excessive resource consumption.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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fed-ex.

On 21-Jan-07, at 10:31 PM, aleks vasic wrote:

> Surely you are not insinuating that Kevin Federline  is not  
> interesting?  Please... :)
>
>
>
> aLEKs
>


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Surely you are not insinuating that Kevin Federline  is not  
interesting?  Please... :)



aLEKs


On Jan 21, 2007, at 10:24 PM, Graham Miller wrote:

> marketing isn't magic. it can only do so much. if the product  
> itself is no good, whether it is computer or kevin federline, no  
> amount of maketing in the world is going to insure that that  
> product succeeds in the marketplace.  there is a reason why  
> products like madonna and apple are successful. because, at the  
> core (no pun intended), there is something there that people find  
> truly interesting, useful or appealing.
>
> g.
>
>> here's ten bucks most of us own a mac and now don't go pretending  
>> the marketing didn't get to you....
>>
>>
>>
>> Op 21-jan-07, om 21:24 heeft xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx het volgende  
>> geschreven:
>>


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marketing isn't magic. it can only do so much. if the product itself  
is no good, whether it is computer or kevin federline, no amount of  
maketing in the world is going to insure that that product succeeds  
in the marketplace.  there is a reason why products like madonna and  
apple are successful. because, at the core (no pun intended), there  
is something there that people find truly interesting, useful or  
appealing.

g.

> here's ten bucks most of us own a mac and now don't go pretending  
> the marketing didn't get to you....
>
>
>
> Op 21-jan-07, om 21:24 heeft xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx het volgende  
> geschreven:
>
>> Okay, you don't like the iPhone, we get it already.
>>
>> Johan.
>>
>>
>>> - the thread on the iPhone touches on a larger and more complex  
>>> issue
>>> of 'marketing' and how people are trained (via the media) to respond
>>> psychologically to the money lubricated mechanisms of manipulation
>>> that corporations use to fleece the public
>>>
>>> - corporations prey on our naiveté and childlike propensity to
>>> mystify and be mystified by new complex accumulations of symbols
>>> (mobile phone + touch-screen = must-have gadget)
>>>
>>> when I hear the term 'marketing' I take it to mean the ability to
>>> manipulate the media in order to project an 'aura' which arouses a
>>> state of desire and fetishism in the consumer
>>>
>>> - 'marketing' is much more complex than simply issuing an  
>>> announcement
>>> while its quaint to quote the dictionary, real-world/working
>>> definitions are much too complex to encapsulate in a single sound-
>>> bite from the dictionary
>>>
>>> real-world marketing is a carefully constructed admixture of  
>>> multiple
>>> nodes (a network) that creates the 'presence' or 'aura' of an object
>>> in the essay: "Grain, Sequence, System: three levels of reception in
>>> the performance of laptop music"
>>> (it's on the microsound Wiki if people want to read it)
>>> I point out that it is the  _combination_  of TV advertising, music
>>> videos, web presence, press releases, CD displays at big-box stores,
>>> etc that creates a 'network of aura' for a pop-star such as Madonna
>>> in which the individual nodes exchange energy - i.e., a synergistic
>>> network which creates desire is formed by its combined power
>>>
>>> the iPhone is no different
>>> as Apple has placed the fetish of the iPhone appropriately in all  
>>> the
>>> Internet locations where it would solicit the correct market  
>>> response
>>> of desire
>>>
>>> there is an interesting book on the marketing of music tech titled:
>>> 'Any Sound You Can Imagine: Making Music/Consuming Technology' by
>>> Paul Theberge
>>> http://tinyurl.com/2rtk9p
>>>
>>> which analyzes how musicians consume technology
>>>
>>> the point is to think critically about consumption
>>> and not fall prey to the the fetishism created by corporate  
>>> marketing
>>> dept's
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
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From ???@??? Mon Jan 22 03:14:14 2007
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'any sound you can imagine' is a good book.  but it's not really the  
marxist rant kim makes it out to be. it's far more objective and  
rational. i'd recommend it, even though it is pretty dated and never  
really addresses electronic music, microsound, techno, house,  
whatever. it's mostly concerned with pop and rock.

as far as the rest of kim's post: you are criticizing people for over  
simplifying 'larger and more complex' issues and yet this kind of  
unilateral marxist thinking is just as much an oversimplification as  
anything here. in fact it strikes me as incredibly romantic.  like  
when first year university students read 'das kapital' for the first  
time and run out and join some juvenile club that can't wait for the  
next TA strike so they can compare their protest pickets, still  
glistening wet with magic marker.

i just can't believe anyone of intelligence can't see marketing as an  
art form unto itself.  it's not evil.  it's only bad when it's done  
poorly.  i love good advertising. apple computers has good  
advertising.  they understand aesthetics. fonts. graphic design.  
there is certainly not enough of it. i say more. not less.

music is not just music. it's the entire sphere of 'larger and more  
complex' social relations that encompass it.  that's what draws me  
toward ethnomusicology.  it looks at the whole 'synergistic network'   
and calls that 'music.' it goes beyond the musician and sees the  
entire collaborative nexus of all the artists and different kinds of  
art forms that go into amking 'music.'  i mean, how is me company any  
less significant than say björk in the way her music is articulated  
or perceived?

to think that an ad or a video or an album cover has nothing to do  
with music is a major oversight and pretty damn square, if you ask  
me. and not in the waveform way.

being hyper-aware of this so-called 'manipulation' only makes the  
experience more pleasurable when it is done well.  media literacy is  
essential, no doubt, but to assume that every corporation is made up  
of the Evil Minions Of Commodity Fetishism is pretty naive unto  
itself. besides, what's so wrong with commodity fetishism?  i think  
it's one of the defining attributes of humanity; this fact that we  
can ascribe some kind of psychic energy to our own creations, whether  
it is a rolex, a steak dinner, or a favourite CD. i don't see  
dolphins doing this.

i for one, would like to retain this childlike propensity to be  
mystified by the world around us.

that's where good art comes from.

now go out a read ayn rand like good little children:)

g.



On 21-Jan-07, at 2:29 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:

> - the thread on the iPhone touches on a larger and more complex  
> issue of 'marketing' and how people are trained (via the media) to  
> respond psychologically to the money lubricated mechanisms of  
> manipulation that corporations use to fleece the public
>
> - corporations prey on our naiveté and childlike propensity to  
> mystify and be mystified by new complex accumulations of symbols  
> (mobile phone + touch-screen = must-have gadget)
>
> when I hear the term 'marketing' I take it to mean the ability to  
> manipulate the media in order to project an 'aura' which arouses a  
> state of desire and fetishism in the consumer
>
> - 'marketing' is much more complex than simply issuing an announcement
> while its quaint to quote the dictionary, real-world/working  
> definitions are much too complex to encapsulate in a single sound- 
> bite from the dictionary
>
> real-world marketing is a carefully constructed admixture of  
> multiple nodes (a network) that creates the 'presence' or 'aura' of  
> an object
> in the essay: "Grain, Sequence, System: three levels of reception  
> in the performance of laptop music"
> (it's on the microsound Wiki if people want to read it)
> I point out that it is the  _combination_  of TV advertising, music  
> videos, web presence, press releases, CD displays at big-box  
> stores, etc that creates a 'network of aura' for a pop-star such as  
> Madonna
> in which the individual nodes exchange energy - i.e., a synergistic  
> network which creates desire is formed by its combined power
>
> the iPhone is no different
> as Apple has placed the fetish of the iPhone appropriately in all  
> the Internet locations where it would solicit the correct market  
> response of desire
>
> there is an interesting book on the marketing of music tech titled:
> 'Any Sound You Can Imagine: Making Music/Consuming Technology' by  
> Paul Theberge
> http://tinyurl.com/2rtk9p
>
> which analyzes how musicians consume technology
>
> the point is to think critically about consumption
> and not fall prey to the the fetishism created by corporate  
> marketing dept's
>
>


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isjtar wrote:
> exactly. besides i've still to meet a laptop performer who doesn't get 
> kicks from new tech.

i'm a laptop performer. i don't get kicks from new technology.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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exactly. besides i've still to meet a laptop performer who doesn't  
get kicks from new tech.
yes it's marketing, yes it's bourgeois, but it has nice tech and  
could be great to hack with a version of linux + pd - if possible of  
course.
the integration of technology in the thing is pretty nice even if i  
loathe the over flashy smoothness.
here's ten bucks most of us own a mac and now don't go pretending the  
marketing didn't get to you....



Op 21-jan-07, om 21:24 heeft xxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx het volgende geschreven:

> Okay, you don't like the iPhone, we get it already.
>
> Johan.
>
>
>> - the thread on the iPhone touches on a larger and more complex issue
>> of 'marketing' and how people are trained (via the media) to respond
>> psychologically to the money lubricated mechanisms of manipulation
>> that corporations use to fleece the public
>>
>> - corporations prey on our naiveté and childlike propensity to
>> mystify and be mystified by new complex accumulations of symbols
>> (mobile phone + touch-screen = must-have gadget)
>>
>> when I hear the term 'marketing' I take it to mean the ability to
>> manipulate the media in order to project an 'aura' which arouses a
>> state of desire and fetishism in the consumer
>>
>> - 'marketing' is much more complex than simply issuing an  
>> announcement
>> while its quaint to quote the dictionary, real-world/working
>> definitions are much too complex to encapsulate in a single sound-
>> bite from the dictionary
>>
>> real-world marketing is a carefully constructed admixture of multiple
>> nodes (a network) that creates the 'presence' or 'aura' of an object
>> in the essay: "Grain, Sequence, System: three levels of reception in
>> the performance of laptop music"
>> (it's on the microsound Wiki if people want to read it)
>> I point out that it is the  _combination_  of TV advertising, music
>> videos, web presence, press releases, CD displays at big-box stores,
>> etc that creates a 'network of aura' for a pop-star such as Madonna
>> in which the individual nodes exchange energy - i.e., a synergistic
>> network which creates desire is formed by its combined power
>>
>> the iPhone is no different
>> as Apple has placed the fetish of the iPhone appropriately in all the
>> Internet locations where it would solicit the correct market response
>> of desire
>>
>> there is an interesting book on the marketing of music tech titled:
>> 'Any Sound You Can Imagine: Making Music/Consuming Technology' by
>> Paul Theberge
>> http://tinyurl.com/2rtk9p
>>
>> which analyzes how musicians consume technology
>>
>> the point is to think critically about consumption
>> and not fall prey to the the fetishism created by corporate marketing
>> dept's
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>


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From ???@??? Sun Jan 21 21:57:27 2007
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This is interesting. Thank you for defining your terms more precisely.
It's easy to confuse ideas and arguments when definitions are not
presented and agreed upon prior to debate.

I'm personally curious how companies use marketing to perpetuate the
'society of debt,' which encourages all walks of life in the United
States to relinquish financial freedoms in the 'interest' of acquiring
loans to pay for goods that they cannot immediately afford (no pun
intended).

It seems like debt has permeated our entire society: military
spending, education, vehicle and home ownership, consumer credit,
medical expenses, etc. I think that the type of marketing you refer to
here is definitely a culprit in more than one of these symptoms of
excess that an Instant Gratification Society exhibits.

~Kyle

On 1/21/07, Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> - the thread on the iPhone touches on a larger and more complex issue
> of 'marketing' and how people are trained (via the media) to respond
> psychologically to the money lubricated mechanisms of manipulation
> that corporations use to fleece the public
>
> - corporations prey on our naiveté and childlike propensity to
> mystify and be mystified by new complex accumulations of symbols
> (mobile phone + touch-screen = must-have gadget)
>
> when I hear the term 'marketing' I take it to mean the ability to
> manipulate the media in order to project an 'aura' which arouses a
> state of desire and fetishism in the consumer
>
> - 'marketing' is much more complex than simply issuing an announcement
> while its quaint to quote the dictionary, real-world/working
> definitions are much too complex to encapsulate in a single sound-
> bite from the dictionary
>
> real-world marketing is a carefully constructed admixture of multiple
> nodes (a network) that creates the 'presence' or 'aura' of an object
> in the essay: "Grain, Sequence, System: three levels of reception in
> the performance of laptop music"
> (it's on the microsound Wiki if people want to read it)
> I point out that it is the  _combination_  of TV advertising, music
> videos, web presence, press releases, CD displays at big-box stores,
> etc that creates a 'network of aura' for a pop-star such as Madonna
> in which the individual nodes exchange energy - i.e., a synergistic
> network which creates desire is formed by its combined power
>
> the iPhone is no different
> as Apple has placed the fetish of the iPhone appropriately in all the
> Internet locations where it would solicit the correct market response
> of desire
>
> there is an interesting book on the marketing of music tech titled:
> 'Any Sound You Can Imagine: Making Music/Consuming Technology' by
> Paul Theberge
> http://tinyurl.com/2rtk9p
>
> which analyzes how musicians consume technology
>
> the point is to think critically about consumption
> and not fall prey to the the fetishism created by corporate marketing
> dept's
>
>
>
>


-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
(())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
_____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO

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From ???@??? Sun Jan 21 20:24:12 2007
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Okay, you don't like the iPhone, we get it already.

Johan.


> - the thread on the iPhone touches on a larger and more complex issue
> of 'marketing' and how people are trained (via the media) to respond
> psychologically to the money lubricated mechanisms of manipulation
> that corporations use to fleece the public
>
> - corporations prey on our naiveté and childlike propensity to
> mystify and be mystified by new complex accumulations of symbols
> (mobile phone + touch-screen = must-have gadget)
>
> when I hear the term 'marketing' I take it to mean the ability to
> manipulate the media in order to project an 'aura' which arouses a
> state of desire and fetishism in the consumer
>
> - 'marketing' is much more complex than simply issuing an announcement
> while its quaint to quote the dictionary, real-world/working
> definitions are much too complex to encapsulate in a single sound-
> bite from the dictionary
>
> real-world marketing is a carefully constructed admixture of multiple
> nodes (a network) that creates the 'presence' or 'aura' of an object
> in the essay: "Grain, Sequence, System: three levels of reception in
> the performance of laptop music"
> (it's on the microsound Wiki if people want to read it)
> I point out that it is the  _combination_  of TV advertising, music
> videos, web presence, press releases, CD displays at big-box stores,
> etc that creates a 'network of aura' for a pop-star such as Madonna
> in which the individual nodes exchange energy - i.e., a synergistic
> network which creates desire is formed by its combined power
>
> the iPhone is no different
> as Apple has placed the fetish of the iPhone appropriately in all the
> Internet locations where it would solicit the correct market response
> of desire
>
> there is an interesting book on the marketing of music tech titled:
> 'Any Sound You Can Imagine: Making Music/Consuming Technology' by
> Paul Theberge
> http://tinyurl.com/2rtk9p
>
> which analyzes how musicians consume technology
>
> the point is to think critically about consumption
> and not fall prey to the the fetishism created by corporate marketing
> dept's
>
>
>



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From ???@??? Sun Jan 21 19:29:26 2007
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--Boundary_(ID_6RK0KKqw9BNEifobx7CQsQ)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

- the thread on the iPhone touches on a larger and more complex issue  
of 'marketing' and how people are trained (via the media) to respond  
psychologically to the money lubricated mechanisms of manipulation  
that corporations use to fleece the public

- corporations prey on our naiveté and childlike propensity to  
mystify and be mystified by new complex accumulations of symbols  
(mobile phone + touch-screen = must-have gadget)

when I hear the term 'marketing' I take it to mean the ability to  
manipulate the media in order to project an 'aura' which arouses a  
state of desire and fetishism in the consumer

- 'marketing' is much more complex than simply issuing an announcement
while its quaint to quote the dictionary, real-world/working  
definitions are much too complex to encapsulate in a single sound- 
bite from the dictionary

real-world marketing is a carefully constructed admixture of multiple  
nodes (a network) that creates the 'presence' or 'aura' of an object
in the essay: "Grain, Sequence, System: three levels of reception in  
the performance of laptop music"
(it's on the microsound Wiki if people want to read it)
I point out that it is the  _combination_  of TV advertising, music  
videos, web presence, press releases, CD displays at big-box stores,  
etc that creates a 'network of aura' for a pop-star such as Madonna
in which the individual nodes exchange energy - i.e., a synergistic  
network which creates desire is formed by its combined power

the iPhone is no different
as Apple has placed the fetish of the iPhone appropriately in all the  
Internet locations where it would solicit the correct market response  
of desire

there is an interesting book on the marketing of music tech titled:
'Any Sound You Can Imagine: Making Music/Consuming Technology' by  
Paul Theberge
http://tinyurl.com/2rtk9p

which analyzes how musicians consume technology

the point is to think critically about consumption
and not fall prey to the the fetishism created by corporate marketing  
dept's


--Boundary_(ID_6RK0KKqw9BNEifobx7CQsQ)--

From ???@??? Sun Jan 21 15:49:15 2007
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From: mattyo <xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] [ot] travel grants for US artists with overseas
 residencies?
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You can tell from the below posts that the actual answer to your post  
is "not really."  Meet the Composer has something called Global  
Connections that's worth looking at, and the Jerome Foundation does  
something as well.  Another group called CEC ArtsLink funds stuf to  
Eastern Europe & central asia, but it's not just for gigs -- you need  
to do some kind of co-project with the locals.

None of these are very useful if you get invited to some underfunded  
festival in western Europe, however -- they tend to be more oriented  
towards places that have less money sloshing around.  There is no  
American Pro Helvetia -- we are only concerned about exporting  
Hollywood culture.

\M


On Jan 20, 2007, at 1:01, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:

> Same here (although Pd on iPhone would be drool-worthy ;-) ).
>
> ~Kyle
>
> On 1/19/07, Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>> Not all that off-topic and certainly more interesting than wanking
>> about a mobile toy for yuppies with too much money. If replies to
>> this query are off-list, I'd like to be included in the off.
>>
>> R..
>>
>>
>> >Sorry for the offtopic query,
>> >
>> >but this seemed about the best place I knew to ask:  any american  
>> artists
>> >know of travel grants available for american artists with  
>> residencies
>> >overseas?
>> >
>> >It seems in enlightended parts of the world one's gov't often  
>> will offer
>> >travel support to artists going abroad.
>> >
>> >I can't imagine that my own does, but hope there may be NPOs or  
>> NGOs that
>> >do...?
>> >
>> >Taking replies off-list might be best given the OT-nature of the
>> >question...
>> >
>> >  thanks!
>> >
>> >   aaron
>> >
>> >   xxxxx@xxxx.xxx
>> >   http://www.quietamerican.org
>> >
>> >   |  quod omne animal post   |
>> >   |  cogitum est triste...   |
>> >
>> >
>> >-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> -
>> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> >For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> >website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> --
>> Website: http://www.warbaby.com
>> (Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not  
>> work yet.)
>> Blog: http://raggedwings.blogspot.com/
>> Nifty Stuff: http://www.cafepress.com/warbaby
>> --
>>
>> "Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would
>> permit us to be pirates."
>>
>>           - Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
> http://theradioproject.com
> http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
>
> (((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
> (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
> ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
> _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
> ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
>
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http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/experimental-touchscreen-makes- 
iphone-look-like-a-toy-229965.php

http://tinyurl.com/2t5psn
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http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001586.html
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do we get to choose who we can call, at least?

g.

the new apple iphone: steve jobs is listening™


On 20-Jan-07, at 5:14 PM, Eloy Anzola wrote:

>
> Apple, so far, plans to basically control every aspect of the  
> iPhone experience.
>
> Eloy
>  -----
> xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>
>


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There's apparantely a small distinction, what runs on our Apple  
computers is "Mac OS X", the iPhone will run "OS X".

Apple, so far, plans to basically control every aspect of the iPhone  
experience.

Eloy
  -----
xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx




On Jan 19, 2007, at 4:32 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:

>
> On Jan 19, 2007, at 3:15 AM, xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx  
> wrote:
>
>> You _doubt_? You don't _know_?
>> I _know_ - It uses OS X widgets.
> actually my friend - who is a senior programmer at Apple Inc. -  
> just confirmed that widgets that work on OS X  *WILL NOT*,  I  
> repeat, WILL NOT work on the iPhone.
> sorry, but your 'knowledge' is wrong
>
>> So I suggest you read the articles I posted previously and educate  
>> yourself.
>> Or stay off the subject until you do.  Either way.
>> Whatever.  Free country.
> a free market in a free country where free individuals live!
> viva la Chavez! :)
>
>


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Now we're on to something... skiing... now there's something we can  
all agree to hate.

slithering down some snow covered slope listening to iPods no  
doubt... listening to terrible music.
music they probably PAID for on iTunes. DRM protected music... Death  
to the skiers!!!


On Jan 20, 2007, at 3:57 AM, Steven McLeod wrote:

> I don't know who's more of a cunt. Him, or the sycophants who lap  
> up whatever swill he tosses at them. Cunts who shop on the king's  
> road and go skiing.
>

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http://www.jimmyr.com/blog/hearingloss.html

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Just to at flames to a smolderingly shite thread, I would like to draw your attention to this quote from,
http://www.holymoly.co.uk/index.php?option=com_glossary&func=display&Itemid=3&catid=14
        STEVE JOBS-He's an outrageous cunt who palms other people's ideas off as his own. Nokia and Sony Ericsson already have a phone out that's better than the iPhone  but because it's not an Apple product the media don't give 2 shits and everyone assumes Jobs has single-handedly invented not only the mobile phone but touchscreen technology, the internet, digital music, gravity, oxygen and the ecosystem. I don't know who's more of a cunt. Him, or the sycophants who lap up whatever swill he tosses at them. Cunts who shop on the king's road and go skiing. 

--Boundary_(ID_nZzIMmo4T4buyAKb7rpO4g)--

From ???@??? Sat Jan 20 06:01:31 2007
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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 00:01:19 -0600
From: Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] [ot] travel grants for US artists with overseas
 residencies?
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Same here (although Pd on iPhone would be drool-worthy ;-) ).

~Kyle

On 1/19/07, Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> Not all that off-topic and certainly more interesting than wanking
> about a mobile toy for yuppies with too much money. If replies to
> this query are off-list, I'd like to be included in the off.
>
> R..
>
>
> >Sorry for the offtopic query,
> >
> >but this seemed about the best place I knew to ask:  any american artists
> >know of travel grants available for american artists with residencies
> >overseas?
> >
> >It seems in enlightended parts of the world one's gov't often will offer
> >travel support to artists going abroad.
> >
> >I can't imagine that my own does, but hope there may be NPOs or NGOs that
> >do...?
> >
> >Taking replies off-list might be best given the OT-nature of the
> >question...
> >
> >  thanks!
> >
> >   aaron
> >
> >   xxxxx@xxxx.xxx
> >   http://www.quietamerican.org
> >
> >   |  quod omne animal post   |
> >   |  cogitum est triste...   |
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >website: http://www.microsound.org
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>
> --
>
> --
> Website: http://www.warbaby.com
> (Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
> Blog: http://raggedwings.blogspot.com/
> Nifty Stuff: http://www.cafepress.com/warbaby
> --
>
> "Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would
> permit us to be pirates."
>
>           - Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi
>
>
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-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

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From ???@??? Sat Jan 20 03:51:43 2007
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From: Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] [ot] travel grants for US artists with overseas
 residencies?
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Not all that off-topic and certainly more interesting than wanking 
about a mobile toy for yuppies with too much money. If replies to 
this query are off-list, I'd like to be included in the off.

R..


>Sorry for the offtopic query,
>
>but this seemed about the best place I knew to ask:  any american artists
>know of travel grants available for american artists with residencies
>overseas?
>
>It seems in enlightended parts of the world one's gov't often will offer
>travel support to artists going abroad.
>
>I can't imagine that my own does, but hope there may be NPOs or NGOs that
>do...?
>
>Taking replies off-list might be best given the OT-nature of the
>question...
>
>  thanks!
>
>   aaron
>
>   xxxxx@xxxx.xxx
>   http://www.quietamerican.org
>
>   |  quod omne animal post   |
>   |  cogitum est triste...   |
>
>
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>website: http://www.microsound.org


-- 

--
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(Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
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"Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would 
permit us to be pirates."

          - Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi


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From ???@??? Fri Jan 19 23:30:39 2007
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Sorry for the offtopic query,

but this seemed about the best place I knew to ask:  any american artists
know of travel grants available for american artists with residencies
overseas?

It seems in enlightended parts of the world one's gov't often will offer
travel support to artists going abroad.

I can't imagine that my own does, but hope there may be NPOs or NGOs that
do...?

Taking replies off-list might be best given the OT-nature of the
question...

 thanks!

  aaron

  xxxxx@xxxx.xxx
  http://www.quietamerican.org

  |  quod omne animal post   |
  |  cogitum est triste...   |


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From ???@??? Fri Jan 19 21:32:27 2007
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On Jan 19, 2007, at 3:15 AM, xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx wrote:

> You _doubt_? You don't _know_?
> I _know_ - It uses OS X widgets.
actually my friend - who is a senior programmer at Apple Inc. - just  
confirmed that widgets that work on OS X  *WILL NOT*,  I repeat, WILL  
NOT work on the iPhone.
sorry, but your 'knowledge' is wrong

> So I suggest you read the articles I posted previously and educate  
> yourself.
> Or stay off the subject until you do.  Either way.
> Whatever.  Free country.
a free market in a free country where free individuals live!
viva la Chavez! :)


--Boundary_(ID_ITKLFSWXsJyKkwgYOY9jeA)--

From ???@??? Fri Jan 19 20:41:30 2007
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Luckily, Pure Data has already been compiled for ARM processors in the
form of PDa.

http://gige.xdv.org/pda/
http://gige.xdv.org/pda/ICMC2003.pdf

Calling an 'announcement' 'marketing' is more of a tongue-in-cheek
jibe than a sincere accusation. Again though, marketing is defined in
one way(googleing 'define:marketing') as a "means to make a
communication about a product or service a purpose of which is to
encourage recipients of the communication to purchase or use the
product or service."

So If you're selling a CD, and distribute information regarding the
contents, price and how to purchase it... ;-)

A press kit is a marketing tool, from what I can tell. But what's
wrong with that? If you are in a business or non-profit and you don't
market your services/products, then success != likely.

~Kyle

On 1/19/07, Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> my announcing a new release does not constitute marketing
> but judging from the usual reductionist reactions on this list I
> suppose it would look that way
> and since the iPhone uses an ARM processor - and not a PPC - I would
> venture a hunch that one would have to recompile anything for OS X to
> get it to work on the iPhone version of OS X -- in other words you
> won't be able to just drag a plain vanilla widget onto your iPhone
> and expect it to work...
> e.g., different OS services, different math (integer vs floating
> point), different function calls, etc.
> I'm having lunch with a friend of mine next week down at Apple (they
> have a great cafeteria!) and will ask him for more details then...
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>


-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
(())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
_____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO

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From ???@??? Fri Jan 19 16:13:16 2007
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my announcing a new release does not constitute marketing
but judging from the usual reductionist reactions on this list I  
suppose it would look that way
and since the iPhone uses an ARM processor - and not a PPC - I would  
venture a hunch that one would have to recompile anything for OS X to  
get it to work on the iPhone version of OS X -- in other words you  
won't be able to just drag a plain vanilla widget onto your iPhone  
and expect it to work...
e.g., different OS services, different math (integer vs floating  
point), different function calls, etc.
I'm having lunch with a friend of mine next week down at Apple (they  
have a great cafeteria!) and will ask him for more details then...


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDnIajyXDLs&mode=related&search=
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From ???@??? Thu Jan 18 18:35:56 2007
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:35:45 -0500
From: aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] Extrapolating into the moment of Saddam's death
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The grim subject matter does not bother me even though i know some may 
be offended by it.

Having said that, i really liked this piece a lot.  Very  gripping.

I think if it would be imbedded into a flash piece that had text synced 
to the audio via code/action scripting it would be even more effective. 
  Simple text builds no different then the intro/descriptions you have 
on your site before the listener/visitor presses the download button.  
Just a friendly suggestion!

aLEKs






On Jan 18, 2007, at 1:22 PM, Thomas Ashcraft wrote:

>
> In light of the recent thread on cellphones as recorders I am posting 
> a short sketch  .mp3 with a sonic extrapolation into the moment of 
> Saddam's death by hanging.
>
> This piece may lean more towards hybrid phonography but it does have a 
> pulsing microsound middle.
>
> http://www.heliotown.com/Possible_Bardo_of_Saddam.html
>
> 4 minutes  4 seconds
>
> NOTE :   Due to morbid sonic content, please do not listen to this 
> piece while high or in a state of altered consciousness.
>
> Thomas Ashcraft
>
>
>
>
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From ???@??? Thu Jan 18 18:22:18 2007
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 11:22:06 -0700
From: Thomas Ashcraft <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] Extrapolating into the moment of Saddam's death
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In light of the recent thread on cellphones as recorders I am posting a 
short sketch  .mp3 with a sonic extrapolation into the moment of 
Saddam's death by hanging.

This piece may lean more towards hybrid phonography but it does have a 
pulsing microsound middle.

http://www.heliotown.com/Possible_Bardo_of_Saddam.html

4 minutes  4 seconds

NOTE :   Due to morbid sonic content, please do not listen to this piece 
while high or in a state of altered consciousness.

Thomas Ashcraft




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From ???@??? Thu Jan 18 16:58:13 2007
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:58:03 -0600
From: David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] Creating video with a circuit bent Casio Sk-1
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http://www.getlofi.com/?p=684

The circuit is simply a diode to prevent the back flow of current and
a resistor to drop the +5 Volt logic gate to a +1 Volt required for
generating a video signal. The color of the pixel is determined by the
voltage in between 0 ( Black ) and 1 ( White ), so if multiple points
on the ROM chip were mixed with various resistor values color images
will occur. Gijs' result is a series of lines that appear on a monitor
in a scrolling fashion. The resulting image is neat and in sync with
the sounds generated, however it is out of sync with the screen. The
NTSC and PAL video standards require a sync pulse to be sent every so
often, without it the image will scroll. Very nice work and I am sure
that this technique will work with other circuit bent devices.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU_SB88RXTw

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From ???@??? Thu Jan 18 15:15:07 2007
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:14:46 -0500
From: Brent Colflesh <xxxxx.xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] ***world community grid***
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This is a great project - I started when it was still grid.org - I'm 
currently at:

1 year: 185 days: 13 h: 21 m: 39 s

on WCG, user "bcolflesh".

Thanks for publicizing this project on the list!

Regards,
Brent

Kim Cascone wrote:
> List member Mel has started a glitch team over at the World Community Grid.
> 
> This is a project that is using networked computer's downtime to
> process potential HIV and AIDS medicines. Many other projects are
> also ongoing relating to genome comparison and human/pathogen
> protein research. WCG uses BOINC software like the more famous SETI
> project, or can also work with a simpler standalone agent for
> processing tasks.
> 
> I encourage members of the microsound list to join up and pool their 
> computer
> resources.
> 
> http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/team/viewTeamInfo.do?teamId=7BS4ZCMFR1
> 
> 
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