Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration

From Andrew Cameron
Sent Fri, Dec 1st 2006, 04:16

Beatport can be flaky for me, lost items in the crate a few times  
etc... The best part of bleep.com for me is how (in safari in my  
case) when you preview a track, just create a new tab and read the  
news or something, and the track will play with no fade-out until you  
click back on the bleep tab. Great for certain tracks that you want  
to hear in full (pedantically).

It flaked on me only once, I think in the first week of its life, so  
I think it's definitely the benchmark.


On 01/12/2006, at 6:07 AM, Graham Miller wrote:

> my problem with beatport is that the preview quality is atrocious.   
> you can't tell if the production of the actual recording is any  
> good and that deters me from buying any digital downloads. i think  
> this is especially shortsighted when you consider that in the idiom  
> of electronic dance music the production IS the music.
>
> i'm really hooked on bleep.com. the preview system they have there  
> is perfect. you see the entire track as a waveform and can shuttle  
> instantly anywhere in the track, with really decent preview audio  
> quality that plays for about 20 seconds before fading to silence.
>
> it's also a beautiful website done by the geniuses at kleber.net.
>
> g.
>
>>
>> Anyway I buy the releases I like, in part because I do want to  
>> support
>> artists. But note that beyond that, a digital download from beatport
>> is normally of higher quality, especially since I usually buy WAV
>> rather than mp3 for instance. So all ethics aside, there is, in fact,
>> good incentive for a discriminating consumer to buy legal digital
>> copies of files.
>>
>> ~David
>>
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From ???@??? Fri Dec  1 01:47:00 2006
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On 2006 Nov 28, at 9:48 PM, Simon Hampson wrote:

> Maaaannnn.. I can't believe this film is from 1983. It looks like a  
> '50s US
> sci-fi film.
>
> Thanks for the link Rod.

Sure, didja check out the other parts - ending with the Fairlight?
memories...


R~~






---
Now playing: Harmonia - Poljana, poljana/Poracki Zenicky

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From ???@??? Thu Nov 30 22:31:06 2006
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:30:51 -0500
From: Chris Molinski <xxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] Dec 1: Neuhaus, Interactive Sound Network
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 FILETIME=[32A81310:01C714CF]

hello microsound:

Dec 1 - 23: The Art Gallery of Knoxville is proud to present the
Networks of acclaimed sound artist Max Neuhaus.

Friday Dec 1 Participate Online!
USA: 6 -11pm EST
Go to http://www.auracle.org and
log into Auracle - broadcast though
the Art Gallery of Knoxville exhibition.

--
"The Networks propose the self-evolution of new musics.
Their premise is a  form of music-making which remains now
only in societies untouched by modern civilization.

Rather than something to be listened to, music in these cultures is an
activity open to the public at large – a dialogue with sound rather
than a performance. I believe this to be the original impulse for
music in mankind."  -Max Neuhaus

Max Neuhaus has worked in the fields of contemporary art and
music for more than 40 years. He is credited with being the first
to extend sound as a primary medium into the field of
contemporary art.  His work has been exhibited internationally
in museums and galleries, including exhibitions at the Dia Art
Foundation, New York; the Museum of Modern Art, New York;
Whitney Museum of American Art, New York; Musée d'art
moderne de la ville de Paris; and the Kunsthalle, Bern.

The Networks of Max Neuhaus are both a tremendous
experiment in new sound – and an early example of Network Art.

Max Neuhaus: "It grew out of an interest of mine in the potential
of music-making with the lay public over networks. The first
realization in this direction was Public Supply in 1966. … Over
the next decade, I gradually developed this concept with other
realizations and finally in 1977 realized Radio Net, a two-hour
nationwide radio event where ten thousand people played a
cross-country instrument with their voices. … In 2000 I realized
that I could do it on the web…."

"Auracle is a networked sound instrument, controlled by
the voice. It is played and heard over the Internet. Anyone
can use it by simply launching it in their web browser at
www.auracle.org and creating sounds unaccompanied or
with other participants in real time.."

An exhibition of these Networks, featuring the online tool Auracle,
will be on display during the month of December at the Art Gallery
of Knoxville.  The Networks (or broadcast works) are systems, "
virtual architectures," which act as a forum open to anyone for the
evolution of new musics.  Auracle, the most recent Neuhaus
network, is an online tool available at Auracle.org - visitors to the
Auracle website may experience the artwork 24 hours a day, seven
days a week.  During the month of December Auracle will become
an active sound, broadcast through the Art Gallery of Knoxville space.

Please participate with this exhibition through Auracle.org –
starting on Dec 1 all sounds on Auracle will be broadcast live in the
Art Gallery of Knoxville space.

For Additional Information: http://www.max-neuhaus.info/

*********************
The Art Gallery of Knoxville
317 N Gay St.
Knoxville, TN 37917
TEL: +1 978 857 0474
www.theartgalleryofknoxville.com



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From ???@??? Thu Nov 30 19:08:06 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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my problem with beatport is that the preview quality is atrocious.   
you can't tell if the production of the actual recording is any good  
and that deters me from buying any digital downloads. i think this is  
especially shortsighted when you consider that in the idiom of  
electronic dance music the production IS the music.

i'm really hooked on bleep.com. the preview system they have there is  
perfect. you see the entire track as a waveform and can shuttle  
instantly anywhere in the track, with really decent preview audio  
quality that plays for about 20 seconds before fading to silence.

it's also a beautiful website done by the geniuses at kleber.net.

g.

>
> Anyway I buy the releases I like, in part because I do want to support
> artists. But note that beyond that, a digital download from beatport
> is normally of higher quality, especially since I usually buy WAV
> rather than mp3 for instance. So all ethics aside, there is, in fact,
> good incentive for a discriminating consumer to buy legal digital
> copies of files.
>
> ~David
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org


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From ???@??? Thu Nov 30 17:54:02 2006
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hello david,

ok, this is what you do, choose the ones you like and pay the artists and delete the other downloads you don't like, nothing to say, i think this is a fair way of acting.

i am pretty sure though (yes i may have a distrustful view of the consumer, maybe of the human race?...), there are thousands of people who donwload everything, keep everything, listen to everything, illegally.

as for people who cannot afford to buy cds: so they are granted the permission to steal? there are thousands of net labels to download from, almost every artist has some free mp3s on his website, so you may always find something interesting for free, legally.

anyway, since illegal downloading is here to stay, i think it's the labels & artists who should try and find some new creative ways of publishing their works, it's time that the regular jewel-cased audio cd is going to disappear.

david

http://microsuoni.com

>
>I'd also point out, many of those who download stuff and never
>purchase any of it, are probably those who usually just can't afford
>it. So maybe these people are indeed stealing. Even so, the artist has
>not yet lost money, because this is a sale that in all likelihood
>would not have ever occurred.
>
>Anyway I buy the releases I like, in part because I do want to support
>artists. But note that beyond that, a digital download from beatport
>is normally of higher quality, especially since I usually buy WAV
>rather than mp3 for instance. So all ethics aside, there is, in fact,
>good incentive for a discriminating consumer to buy legal digital
>copies of files.
>
>~David
>
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From ???@??? Thu Nov 30 17:33:15 2006
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I read up on this converation last night before I went to bed, and I was
too tired then to throw in my 2 cent, but here's a morning look...

What you are refering to is completely "new" music to the listener. And
this aspect, or at least some cases of it, you're not completely off. Last
night I went to see Joanna Newsom perform and in this particular case,
there is two sides to it. When her first record came out, no one had heard
of her and thus filesharing of her album might have increased sales of her
record significantly due to the fact that most people would never had just
bought her record on impulse, but that many people bought it after they
found they liked it. I'm sure it's hard to actually tell if this is really
paper proof, but it seems realistic to me. And in your case (David
Powers), as a fairly unknown artist, free music is the way to introduce
you and get yourself some fans. But then there is the next step, which in
Newsom's case. For every person who had heard her first album and enjoyed
it and went on soulseek and just grabbed the new one, it's a lost sale.
And in a perfect world all of those fans would just go and buy the album,
but the truth is that most people won't. And there lies the trouble.

It's true that in some cases the lack of FM radio and even MTV has cost a
lot of musicians money. I think that's frankly Metallica's problem more
than anything. They don't get even a 1/100 of the play time on TV or Radio
on a new album like they did when the black album came out. So of course,
they point their fingers at filesharing, when it really comes down to a
lot of different things that's troubling the "mainstream" music scene
aside from filesharing. But I doubt anyone would ever adknowledge that
it's quite easy to blame poor sales on the internet. It reminds me of a
Simpsons episode where Marge asks Homer who is picking up the children
from school and Homer answers "I don't know, the internet?"

Back to where the thread started, it's a dilemma I encounter a lot. I
collect old rare records like so many of us. Some records are so extremely
rare that I'll probably never be able to find them, or if I do, I can't
justify to my wife to cough up the dough for it. So, downloading the
record doesn't sound like really a big deal. Boris and Sunn O might be
this rare, I don't know anything about it. But even modern music has this
problem. I know a lot of people put out extremely limited tour CDRs and
what not. Rare releases kind of build up for eBay and Soulseek. But then
in those cases, the artist doesn't make any money on it.

Okay I'm rambling now. But filesharing can give new artists a boost, I'm
sure of it. It's odd, but in some more mainstream genres, yes radio and
even TV has killed the music industry. But let's face it most of us don't
really make or even listen to much music that ever was on radio and TV.
What's important is that if you find a new artist you like on soulseek,
support them. Unfortunately most people don't.

Man, I only got a few hours of sleep last night...

Johan.




> I do use soulseek to check out new music. It is by far the most
> efficient way to search for and try out 20 + albums at a time. As I'm
> very busy this is pretty crucial for me.
>
> So we are agreed I might find a couple of releases out of these I want
> to buy. What about the other music I'm "ripping off"? Well to start
> with, it's not good enough to buy, so it gets deleted, either
> immediately of whenever I have a hard disc cleaning session. I really
> don't have much need to keep around a bunch of music that I didn't
> like all that much.
>
> I fail to see how an artist's sales are decreasing, when I listen to
> their work and determine I don't want it. Nobody is being ripped off.
> This is a sale that never would have occurred to begin with! Why is
> this simple concept seemingly so difficult for some people to grasp?
>
> I'd suggest that a better way to think about things is to compare the
> practice to radio. If I hear a new song on the radio, and I don't own
> the album, am I "ripping off" an artist? No I'm not. If I don't like
> the song much, I'll do nothing, but if I hear a song I like, I'm going
> to go look for it. Even though I could sit around taping radio shows
> instead of purchasing the song, if I really wanted.
>
> I'd also point out, many of those who download stuff and never
> purchase any of it, are probably those who usually just can't afford
> it. So maybe these people are indeed stealing. Even so, the artist has
> not yet lost money, because this is a sale that in all likelihood
> would not have ever occurred.
>
> Anyway I buy the releases I like, in part because I do want to support
> artists. But note that beyond that, a digital download from beatport
> is normally of higher quality, especially since I usually buy WAV
> rather than mp3 for instance. So all ethics aside, there is, in fact,
> good incentive for a discriminating consumer to buy legal digital
> copies of files.
>
> ~David
>
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From ???@??? Thu Nov 30 17:32:54 2006
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Honestly no offense intended, but how can anyone ever assume how others 
feel or what they would do in any given situation.  I buy as much as i 
can of whatever mp3's i have downloaded without paying.  As much as my 
income allows.  An absurd amount actually.  If it is music that i like 
then i want the entire package, i must have it.  The CD, the design, 
the whole shpeel.  Its a collector mentality.  Besides supporting the 
artist, its a hobby and passion.  For me there is no comparison between 
an album of mp3's and a vinyl album/CD packaging.  I want to be able to 
hold it, read it, inspect it, and appreciate it.  Its all relative.

aLEKs




On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:13 AM, david.microsuoni wrote:

>
>>
>> but the "stealing culture" has also the (maybe long term) advantages
>> for labels and producers, that in some cases, as somebody reported,
>> stealing has been proved to increase abums' sales.
>
> OK, i may agree with some other points of your mail, but this one i 
> think is totally false.
>
> i will never ever believe that someone who downloaded an album for 
> free is going to buy it afterwards on cd, but let's say that you 
> illegally download 100 albums of music, and then you buy a couple you 
> really liked, what about the other 98 artists you are ripping off??
> this is increasing sales??
>
>> and I should be crazy, as I'm starting a label...
>
> let's hope with more creativity than labels use to have 
> nowadays....oopss... ;-)
>
> ciao,
>
> david.
>
>
>
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On 11/30/06, david.microsuoni <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> OK, i may agree with some other points of your mail, but this one i think is totally false.
>
> i will never ever believe that someone who downloaded an album for free is going to buy it afterwards on cd, but let's say that you illegally download 100 albums of music, and then you buy a couple you really liked, what about the other 98 artists you are ripping off??
> this is increasing sales??

This shows a really negative and distrustful view of the consumer.
From my immediate experience, your intuition on this is just plain
wrong. Many of my friends use soulseek, as do I, and all of use buy as
many records as we can afford. Many prefer vinyl, though I often buy
digital releases from beatport.

I do use soulseek to check out new music. It is by far the most
efficient way to search for and try out 20 + albums at a time. As I'm
very busy this is pretty crucial for me.

So we are agreed I might find a couple of releases out of these I want
to buy. What about the other music I'm "ripping off"? Well to start
with, it's not good enough to buy, so it gets deleted, either
immediately of whenever I have a hard disc cleaning session. I really
don't have much need to keep around a bunch of music that I didn't
like all that much.

I fail to see how an artist's sales are decreasing, when I listen to
their work and determine I don't want it. Nobody is being ripped off.
This is a sale that never would have occurred to begin with! Why is
this simple concept seemingly so difficult for some people to grasp?

I'd suggest that a better way to think about things is to compare the
practice to radio. If I hear a new song on the radio, and I don't own
the album, am I "ripping off" an artist? No I'm not. If I don't like
the song much, I'll do nothing, but if I hear a song I like, I'm going
to go look for it. Even though I could sit around taping radio shows
instead of purchasing the song, if I really wanted.

I'd also point out, many of those who download stuff and never
purchase any of it, are probably those who usually just can't afford
it. So maybe these people are indeed stealing. Even so, the artist has
not yet lost money, because this is a sale that in all likelihood
would not have ever occurred.

Anyway I buy the releases I like, in part because I do want to support
artists. But note that beyond that, a digital download from beatport
is normally of higher quality, especially since I usually buy WAV
rather than mp3 for instance. So all ethics aside, there is, in fact,
good incentive for a discriminating consumer to buy legal digital
copies of files.

~David

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>
>but the "stealing culture" has also the (maybe long term) advantages
>for labels and producers, that in some cases, as somebody reported,
>stealing has been proved to increase abums' sales.

OK, i may agree with some other points of your mail, but this one i think is totally false.

i will never ever believe that someone who downloaded an album for free is going to buy it afterwards on cd, but let's say that you illegally download 100 albums of music, and then you buy a couple you really liked, what about the other 98 artists you are ripping off??
this is increasing sales??

>and I should be crazy, as I'm starting a label...

let's hope with more creativity than labels use to have nowadays....oopss... ;-)

ciao,

david.



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hi

thank you for your thoughtful commentary. i too feel that the
commodification of music is a primarily negative thing.

while i won't deny the importance of money for basic survival [and
beyond], thinking of music only in terms of it's economic value is
missing all the good stuff. like being in sainte chapelle wearing a
blindfold.

On 11/30/06, Massimiliano Viel <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
> and I should be crazy, as I'm starting a label...

i think you have to be. ask kim!

-- 
\js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]

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From ???@??? Thu Nov 30 12:37:34 2006
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>  >please, steal my music!
>
>if it's your own choice, about your own music, nothing to say, it's up to you.
>
>but you cannot decide for the work of everyone else...

Yes of course,
what I wanted to say is that new technology brings new way of... 
moving in the world.
In my opinion, the only way to keep people from stealing music from 
internet is to close internet, toghether with all its benefits...
Maybe history would have been different if the music maket had 
followed other directions in the past times... but I'm not so sure... 
it's not matter of market but of culture...
the fact is that if music is a product, it goes under all the pros 
and cons of being a product...
and music is such a valueless product (for most people) and so easy to steal...

you see? looks like the solution is bringing all the market in 
internet, now... but mainly with the result of lowering the quality 
(I'm talking about mp3) of sound and of cancelling the album-concept 
to advantage of song-concept

but the "stealing culture" has also the (maybe long term) advantages 
for labels and producers, that in some cases, as somebody reported, 
stealing has been proved to increase abums' sales.

the fact is that stolen music helps music to spread... let some music 
to be listened by people who'd never listen to it if they have to 
pay.. stolen music helps to increase sensibility and knowledge, 
things that in the end result to adadvantage for (good) producers and 
labels...

unfortunately stealers are still stealers... what a contradictory 
situation huh?

and I should be crazy, as I'm starting a label...

m
-- 
M  a  s  s  i  m  i  l  i  a  n  o                  V  i  e  l
http://www.maxviel.it
http://www.ssim-el.net
http://www.otolab.net
http://www.sincronie.org

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hello
a new track in our My Space player...

http://www.myspace.com/stringsofconsciousness

On it we have been very happy to welcome one of the most influential  
composer musician from the past 20 years, please go discover his  
music in case you haven't already...

http://www.foetus.org

http://www.myspace.com/foetus


the track is named Asphodel and on it our line up is :l

J. G. Thirlwell (vocals/lyrics) + Hervé Vincenti (guitars/keys) +  
Abdenor Natouri  (double bass) + Andy Diagram (trumpet / electronics)  
+ Karim Tobbi (guitar) + Perceval Bellone (saxophone) + Philippe  
Petit (laptop/turntables) + Lydwine Vanderhulst (piano)



LYRICS
(by J. G. Thirlwell)

Its gone
Like a dandelion seed

Float On
I've got everything I need

 From the pole into the hole
 From a dose you can't control

We have
contracts of depravity

Hooray
Were delirious today

Please dont leave me alone
I may just lay down for a while
Please dont leave me alone
You know a miss is as good as a mile

Every molecule you shift
Causes continental drift

Be the hunter not the prey
Kill to live another day

And the swellings going down
Nothing makes the world go round round round round round

To go on.....
To go on.....
To go on.....
To go on.....
To go on.....
To go on.....
To go on.....

Been turning cartwheels at the edge of reason
I think that asphodel is out of season
You better plant another seed today
--Mailsmith-91AE5668-AD5D-11DB-9D5B-000D932C0D78
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">hello</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">a new track in our My Space player...</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><A href="http://www.myspace.com/stringsofconsciousness">http://www.myspace.com/stringsofconsciousness</A><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On it we have been very happy to welcome one of the most influential composer musician from the past 20 years, please go discover his music in case you haven't already...</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://www.foetus.org">http://www.foetus.org</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://www.myspace.com/foetus">http://www.myspace.com/foetus</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the track is named Asphodel and on it our line up is :l</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal American Typewriter; min-height: 14px; ; font-family: American Typewriter; "><BR style="font-family: American Typewriter; "></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">J. G. Thirlwell (vocals/<FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="American Typewriter">lyrics) + </FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><I>Hervé Vincenti (guitars/keys) + </I></SPAN></FONT>Abdenor Natouri  (double bass) + <FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><I>Andy Diagram (trumpet / electronics) + Karim Tobbi (guitar) + Perceval Bellone (saxophone) + Philippe Petit (laptop/turntables) + Lydwine Vanderhulst (piano)</I></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal American Typewriter; min-height: 14px; ; font-family: American Typewriter; "><BR style="font-family: American Typewriter; "></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">LYRICS </DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">(by J. G. Thirlwell)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Its gone</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Like a dandelion seed</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Float On</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I've got everything I need</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From the pole into the hole</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From a dose you can't control</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">We have</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">contracts of depravity</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hooray</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Were delirious today</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Please dont leave me alone</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I may just lay down for a while</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Please dont leave me alone</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">You know a miss is as good as a mile</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Every molecule you shift</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Causes continental drift</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Be the hunter not the prey</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Kill to live another day</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">And the swellings going down</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Nothing makes the world go round round round round round</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To go on.....</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To go on.....</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To go on.....</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To go on.....</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To go on.....</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To go on.....</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To go on.....</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Been turning cartwheels at the edge of reason</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I think that asphodel is out of season</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">You better plant another seed today</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From ???@??? Thu Nov 30 12:02:49 2006
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:05:30 +0100
From: "david.microsuoni" <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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>please, steal my music!

if it's your own choice, about your own music, nothing to say, it's up to you.

but you cannot decide for the work of everyone else...

david.


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From ???@??? Thu Nov 30 11:34:35 2006
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From: Massimiliano Viel <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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please, steal my music!
I mean, I might be a white fly, but I think considering music as a 
product to be bought & consumed as a kind of a modern perversion of 
the fact that music is basically something like the air...

this is also the result of the fact the our "non tribal" civilisation 
is basically non-musical, so few people who are skilled in music try 
to convince other people who are hardly able to distinguish a pair of 
tones to entertain themselves (yes! music business is under the 
entertainment category!! weird huh?) by buying some product.

awkey... I know this is (apparently) not the case of 
experimental-classical-microsound whatsoever and that we producers 
must make a living from something...

so here is the crisis of music supports and a change in the music 
distribution/production paradigm... the question is at least open and 
complex... that's why I invite some of you to a less rigid 
position... it is no help for anybody to separate people into the 
good ones and the stealers, expecially when music thinking is not 
homogeneous in the (expecially borderline) music community and our 
"vision" of sound is so much exposed to "mass production ideology" 
contamination

m

-- 
M  a  s  s  i  m  i  l  i  a  n  o                  V  i  e  l
http://www.maxviel.it
http://www.ssim-el.net
http://www.otolab.net
http://www.sincronie.org

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From ???@??? Thu Nov 30 10:14:01 2006
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Eriksson?= <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] mathematical music reading list
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Sounds interesting! Can you add this to the Wiki?

/Björn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Benedikt Koehler" <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [microsound] mathematical music reading list


btw there's a new work by media theorist Friedrich Kittler called
"Musik und Mathematik - Band 1: Hellas. Teil 1: Aphrodite" (tr.:
"Music and Mathematics - Volume 1: Hellas. Part 1: Aphrodite", Wilhelm
Fink Verlag, München 2006) that just has been published. A 409 p book
that's just the first part of the first of four volumes. Surely a wide
field ...

best
benedikt

On 11/30/06, Paulo Mouat <xxxxx.xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> http://www.interdisciplina.org/microsound-wiki/index.php/Mathematical_music_reading_list
>
> //p
> http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0/

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From: Benedikt Koehler <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] mathematical music reading list
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btw there's a new work by media theorist Friedrich Kittler called
"Musik und Mathematik - Band 1: Hellas. Teil 1: Aphrodite" (tr.:
"Music and Mathematics - Volume 1: Hellas. Part 1: Aphrodite", Wilhelm
Fink Verlag, München 2006) that just has been published. A 409 p book
that's just the first part of the first of four volumes. Surely a wide
field ...

best
benedikt

On 11/30/06, Paulo Mouat <xxxxx.xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> http://www.interdisciplina.org/microsound-wiki/index.php/Mathematical_music_reading_list
>
> //p
> http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0/

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:51:41 -0800
From: "p. hendricks" <xx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] AllofMP3.com theft trading was:  Russian agrees to
 shut it down
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On 11/29/06 3:57 PM, "Skip Acuff" <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

first if you guys are gonna fight CHANGE THE SUBJECT to fit the topic.

>  
> http://news.com.com/Russia+agrees+to+shut+down+Allofmp3.com/2100-1027_3-
> 6139350.html


finally, yeah, saw a blurb on boing this morning.
Do support this this is theft! they are taking your money and more of the
artists. allofmp3 is stealing no matter how you look at it they are the
scum, they are profiting of artists, where the artist receives nothing. you
are scum to support them at all.

the free trading of mp3s is another issue. it's more like tape trading, on a
larger scale. But it's a really great way to find out about things and a no
risk way to see if you like, especially for non-major artists.

personally, it's wasteful and I can't afford to buy every CD released that i
want, any advice one how to store thousands in jewel cases?)
So i download a lot, and what i like I buy, if I can find it. And when I buy
something, without having listened first and it's craps... well, that sucks,
waste of time and money.
If it's a worthy album, i'll buy it.
I've bought most of my discs in the last couple years based on hearing them
first, and thankfully avoided many others.

A side note, mp3s bought or shared don't any value either, many CD's and
Vinyl i've bought in the past now sell for hundreds of dollars. You have
nothing with mp3s, not even a quality example, to me this is NOT stealing--
UNLESS YOU TRY AND SELL IT TO IDIOTS like allofmp3.
Mp3s still sound like crap especially for any exciting music.

As an artist, I encourage those to rip and share my discs. That's the best
of find out about new artists.

just my opinion.
-phil



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http://www.interdisciplina.org/microsound-wiki/index.php/Mathematical_music_reading_list

//p
http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0/

On 11/29/06, Kim Cascone <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> this list was cut and pasted from post by Peter Castine to the Max/
> MSP list...I thought I'd post it here in case some people might find
> it useful...maybe some industrious soul can start a microsound Wiki
> page and we can add to it?
> thanks
> KIM
>
> > and set theory...
> >
> > Here is the recommended reading list from a seminar I gave on this
> > a few years back.
> >
> > Lehrbücher
> > Forte, Allen. The Structure of Atonal Music. New Haven, Conn.: Yale
> > University Press, 1973.
> > Morris, Robert D. Class Notes for Atonal Music Theory. Hanover, New
> > Hamphsire: Forg Peak Music, 1991.
> > Morris, Robert D. Composition with Pitch-Classes. New Haven: Yale
> > University Press, 1987.
> > Rahn, John. Basic Atonal Theory. New York: Schirmer Books, 1980.
> >
> > Weitere Literature
> > Alphonce, Bo Harry. "The Invariance Matrix." Ph.D. dissertation,
> > Yale University, 1974.
> > Babbitt, Milton. "Set Strucuture as a Compositional Determinant."
> > JMT 5, no. 2 (1961): 72-94.
> > Babbitt, Milton. "Some Aspects of Twelve-Tone Composition."  12
> > (1955): 53-61.
> > Babbitt, Milton. "Twelve-Tone Invariants as Compositional
> > Determinants." MQ 46, no. 2 (1960): 246-59.
> > Chrisman, Richard. "Identification and Correlation of Pitch-Sets."
> > JMT 15, no. 1 and 2 (1971): 58-83.
> > Clough, John. "Diatonic Interval Sets and Transformational
> > Structures." PNM 18, no. 1&2 (1979): 461-482.
> > Clough, John. "Pitch-Set Equivalence and Inclusion (A Comment on
> > Forte's Theory of Set-Complexes)." JMT 9, no. 1 (1965): 163-71.
> > Forte, Allen. "Sets and Non-Sets in Schoenberg's Atonal Music." PNM
> > 11, no. 2 (1972): 43-64.
> > Forte, Allen. "The structure of atonal music: Practical aspects of
> > a computer-oriented research project." In Musicology and the
> > Computer. Musicology 1966-2000: A Practical Program. Three
> > Symposia. New York: American Musicological Society, 1970.
> > Hanson, Howard. Harmonic Materials of Modern Music: Resources of
> > the Tempered Scale. New York: Appleton-Century-Crofts, 1960.
> > Lewin, David. "Forte's interval vector, my interval function, and
> > Regener's common-note function." JMT 21, no. 2 (1977): 194-237.
> > Lewin, David. Generalized Musical Intervals and Transformations.
> > New Haven, Conn.: Yale University, 1987.
> > Lewin, David. "Klumpenhouwer networks and some isographies that
> > involve them." Spectrum 12, no. 1 (1990): 83-120.
> > Lewin, David. "A response to a response: On pcset relatedness." PNM
> > 18 (1979): 498-502.
> > Martino, Donald. "The source-set and its aggregate formations." JMT
> > 5, no. 2 (1961): 224-73.
> > Perle, George. Serial Composition and Atonality: An Introduction to
> > the Music of Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern. 3rd ed. Los Angeles,
> > California: University of California Press, 1972.
> > Rogers, John. "Some properties of non-duplicating rotational
> > arrays." PNM 7, no. 1 (1968): 80-102.
> > Starr, Daniel, and Robert D. Morris. "A general theory of
> > combinatoriality and the aggregate." PNM 16, no. 1 (1977): 3-35.
> > Wintle, Christopher. "Milton Babbitt's Semi-Simple Variations." PNM
> > 14, no. 2 and 15:1 (1976): 111-54.
> >
> >
> >> geometry
> >>
> >
> > Dmittri Tymoczko's "Geometry of Music" article in Sciene 313 pp
> > 72-74 (2006) and Guerino Mazzola's book "Die Geometrie der
> > Musik" (in an expanded English edition published under the title
> > 'Topos of Music').
> >
> > Hope that's something to get you started.
> >
>
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>

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 19:04:35 -0600
From: Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] AllofMP3.com: Russian agrees to shut it down
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I saw this on Slashdot as well.  It's kind of ironic, given today's earlier
"discussion."

~Kyle

On 11/29/06, Skip Acuff <xxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>
> http://news.com.com/Russia+agrees+to+shut+down+Allofmp3.com/2100-1027_3-
> 6139350.html
>
>
>


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Why do you hate him so?  A lot of the members on this list drop smart 
ass remarks.  Its fun.  Some kind of personal history of some sort 
between you two?  Relax, not worth getting all hot and bothered by.  
unless you enjoy it, then by all means have at!


aLEKs




On Nov 29, 2006, at 5:12 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:

>
> graham no one likes your DUMB slap stick remarks...
> there is no baggage the real expense is that airlines charge mor eto 
> fly accross the contry then it would be to flay me to england 2 times 
> return...
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:
>
>> the real expense is all the baggage;)
>>
>> On 29-Nov-06, at 4:24 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>
>>> I would love to play vancoiver island wish someone could afford to 
>>> fly me out... thanks for the offer...
>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Robert Arnold wrote:
>>>> Any time you're playing in the wilds of Vancouver Island, you're 
>>>> always welcome to a good bed, good food, good smoke, and disturbing 
>>>> conversation. Gotta bring your own booze, though - I can't afford 
>>>> it at the prices they charge here in Canadia.
>>>> R.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>>
>
> ============================
> www.phoniq.net
> releases available on:
> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> publication:
> www.vagueterrain.net
>
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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 22:11:04 2006
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graham no one likes your DUMB slap stick remarks...
there is no baggage the real expense is that airlines charge mor eto fly 
accross the contry then it would be to flay me to england 2 times 
return...


On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:

> the real expense is all the baggage;)
>
> On 29-Nov-06, at 4:24 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>
>> 
>> I would love to play vancoiver island wish someone could afford to fly me 
>> out... thanks for the offer...
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Robert Arnold wrote:
>> 
>>> Any time you're playing in the wilds of Vancouver Island, you're always 
>>> welcome to a good bed, good food, good smoke, and disturbing conversation. 
>>> Gotta bring your own booze, though - I can't afford it at the prices they 
>>> charge here in Canadia.
>>> 
>>> R.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>

============================
www.phoniq.net
releases available on:
www.noisefactoryrecords.com
publication:
www.vagueterrain.net

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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 21:49:36 2006
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the real expense is all the baggage;)

On 29-Nov-06, at 4:24 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:

>
> I would love to play vancoiver island wish someone could afford to  
> fly me out... thanks for the offer...
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Robert Arnold wrote:
>
>> Any time you're playing in the wilds of Vancouver Island, you're  
>> always welcome to a good bed, good food, good smoke, and  
>> disturbing conversation. Gotta bring your own booze, though - I  
>> can't afford it at the prices they charge here in Canadia.
>>
>> R.


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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 21:22:42 2006
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I would love to play vancoiver island wish someone could afford to fly me 
out... thanks for the offer...


On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Robert Arnold wrote:

> Any time you're playing in the wilds of Vancouver Island, you're always 
> welcome to a good bed, good food, good smoke, and disturbing conversation. 
> Gotta bring your own booze, though - I can't afford it at the prices they 
> charge here in Canadia.
>
> R.
>
>> as an artist who knows his stuff is being freely traded in places like 
>> soulseek I often feel the exact same way ...
>> so next time im on tour in a town close to anyone expect me to crash on 
>> your couches, eat your food and drink your drinks all free simply becasue I 
>> dont want to pay for it...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>> 
>>> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>>> 
>>> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors fridge 
>>> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>>> 
>>> aLEKs
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Nov 29, 2006, at 8:19 AM, steinbrüchel wrote:
>>> 
>>>> great... all this ripping and stealing info is really very helpful.
>>>> am i the only one still buying the original cd releases? i'm
>>>> not interested in getting it cheap or for free. i'm interested in
>>>> getting the original 2cd limited version and i already found a
>>>> place so thanks to those helpful links. all you others can go
>>>> and have some more fun downloading music for free...
>>>> 
>>>> does anybody even care about the artists involved?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Am 29.11.2006 12:55 Uhr schrieb "xxx@xxxxxxx.xx" unter <xxx@xxxxxxx.xx>:
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> 
>> 
>> ============================
>> www.phoniq.net
>> releases available on:
>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>> publication:
>> www.vagueterrain.net
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
> --
>
>
>
> --
> Website: http://www.warbaby.com
> (Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
> Blog: http://raggedwings.blogspot.com/
> Nifty Stuff: http://www.cafepress.com/warbaby
> --
>
> "Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit 
> us to be pirates."
>
>         - Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi
>
>
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>

============================
www.phoniq.net
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publication:
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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 21:19:48 2006
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check your inbox again resent AGAIN check your spam folder or your 
trash...
I sent it to Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
this really does not need to be on list at all... so email me privately if 
you feel the need to reply...
as for your observation
if you dont like then dont give it!!!
and I dont see musicans or promotires as ONLY contributing creatively
TIME and MONEY go well beyond creativity!!!



On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:

> i haven't received any private e-mails, neil.
>
> are you sure you have the right addresses?
> maybe you mistyped them?
>
> my point was:
>
> there is a certain sense of entitlement i've discovered around musicians and 
> promoters who feel like they are exempted from financially contributing to a 
> marginal music scene because they are a creative part of it.
>
> i don't think i'm imagining this.
>
> g.
>
>
> On 29-Nov-06, at 2:33 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>
>> 
>> READ YOUR PRIVATE EMAIL!!!
>> and hostile simply because your a fucking condesending asshole
>> even this reply is fucking condisending!!! get your shit together and think 
>> about what you do before you do it!!!!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:
>> 
>>> yikes.
>>> that's wasn't very nice.
>>> in fact, it was kind of mean spirited, actually.
>>> i don't usually get called those sort of names unless i'm driving my car.
>>> 
>>> why so hostile? you should check this out: 
>>> http://www.apa.org/topics/controlanger.html
>>> and this: http://www.spellcheck.net/
>>> 
>>> and i thought we were actually kind of getting along these days.
>>> oh well.
>>> 
>>> all the best,
>>> 
>>> graham
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 29-Nov-06, at 1:59 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>> 
>>>> what are you talking about graham??? your a compleat fool!!!!
>>>> and a huge mother fucking LOOSER!!!! as I support the local toronto scene 
>>>> more then most people do asswipe!!!
>>>> see your private email box for more on this no reason for this to be 
>>>> public
>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:
>>>>> when was the last time you payed cover or full price cover to support 
>>>>> local techno artists, neil?
>>>>> On 29-Nov-06, at 1:38 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>>> as an artist who knows his stuff is being freely traded in places like 
>>>>>> soulseek I often feel the exact same way ...
>>>>>> so next time im on tour in a town close to anyone expect me to crash on 
>>>>>> your couches, eat your food and drink your drinks all free simply 
>>>>>> becasue I dont want to pay for it...
>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>>>>> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>>>>>>> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors fridge 
>>>>>>> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>>>>>>> aLEKs
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> 
>> 
>> ============================
>> www.phoniq.net
>> releases available on:
>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>> publication:
>> www.vagueterrain.net
>> 
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>
>
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>

============================
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You may not beable to afford a porsche but you can buy car kits to make
your toyota look like one and there have been lawsuits over that exact
issue.

Actually ADOBE is very aware that their products are highly
"downloaded" and susposedly they price it accordingly. Although I have
never bought into the concept software makers would actually charge
less if there was no piracy because no piracy does not mean that
everyone would in fact buy the software. Less piracy does not insure
more sales however lower prices might insure more sales. 

The reason why the argument is made for the use of the word stealing is
that it is amore "concrete" subject that the dumb ole public can
understand. Otherwise they see the intangible as somewhat freely
available like the ether or radio waves. 

The ones who are making profits are the P2P developers who put banner
ads in there software and they like radio stations should probably pay
royalties for doing this. But I don't even want to think what would
happen if the FCC or RIAA actually had say over how things were done on
the internet. What if ISP had to pay royalties like the manufacturers
of recordable CD's and tape media to offset losses due to piracy. As is
the the whole net neutrality thing is rearing it's head to charge the
users more for going online.. so me of that money it if happens should
go to salve this issue.



AD


--- steinbrüchel <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:

> i completely disagree. you're just looking for an excuse for your
> actions.
> i don't drive a porsche because i can't afford it (simple as that).
> if
> everybody would think like you there would be no ADOBE very fast. and
> it's
> so simple to argue that someone like mark knopfler and eric clapton
> anyway
> have enough money (so they sure won't mind).
> 
> so basically you're saying that everybody that has more money then
> you do
> will not be supported in any way by you because your the poorer chap
> (or
> where do you put the line?)
> 
> 
> Am 29.11.2006 20:33 Uhr schrieb "Robert Arnold" unter
> <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>:
> 
> > I certainly agree with you in principle, but sometimes principle
> has
> > to take a back seat to poverty. I've had virtually no income for
> the
> > past 6 months or so, and the music I download is not by struggling
> > artists but by musicians who have more money than they know what to
> > do with (the last time I downloaded it was stuff by Eric Clapton
> and
> > Mark Knopfler). When I do have the funds to pay for CDs, that's
> when
> > I buy stuff from musicians who need the money.
> > 
> > Same goes for software. I always pay for shareware by individual
> > programmers for whom a few bucks matter, but Adobe won't go out of
> > business if I get a boot of Photoshop, without which I can't do my
> > own art. My ethics may be a bit slippery, but that's the way it is
> > sometimes when you live on the fringes.
> > 
> > Sorry if my attitude offends anyone. I promise you that my
> principles
> > will be higher as soon as I can afford them.
> > 
> > R.
> > 
> > 
> >> Yes, but from what I understand, none of this money that goes to
> Allofmp3
> >> goes to the artists.  I consider that a greater theft than just
> trading good
> >> tunes (since radio isn't doing its job nowadays).
> >> 
> >> ~Kyle
> >> 
> >> On 11/28/06, Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> You can download the album for 2 bucks from AllOfMP3:
> >>> 
> >>>
>
http://music.allofmp3.com/r2/Sunn_0)/Altar_(With_Boris)/group_66770/album_2/
> >>> albref_14/mcatalog.shtml
> >>> 
> >>> AllOfMP3 is a great resource for downloading music. They're
> located
> >>> in Russia, so their downloads are really cheap (important
> >>> consideration for us po' folk). I've been using them for a couple
> of
> >>> years and have found them very reliable to deal with - no problem
> >>> with credit cards through their payment site.
> >>> 
> >>> R.
> >>> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> .:.: http://www.synchron.ch :.:.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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> 
> 


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From: Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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Any time you're playing in the wilds of Vancouver 
Island, you're always welcome to a good bed, good 
food, good smoke, and disturbing conversation. 
Gotta bring your own booze, though - I can't 
afford it at the prices they charge here in 
Canadia.

R.

>as an artist who knows his stuff is being freely 
>traded in places like soulseek I often feel the 
>exact same way ...
>so next time im on tour in a town close to 
>anyone expect me to crash on your couches, eat 
>your food and drink your drinks all free simply 
>becasue I dont want to pay for it...
>
>
>
>On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>
>>Yeah, i feel the same way.
>>
>>Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle 
>>through my neighbors fridge because i want to 
>>eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>>
>>aLEKs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Nov 29, 2006, at 8:19 AM, steinbrüchel wrote:
>>
>>>great... all this ripping and stealing info is really very helpful.
>>>am i the only one still buying the original cd releases? i'm
>>>not interested in getting it cheap or for free. i'm interested in
>>>getting the original 2cd limited version and i already found a
>>>place so thanks to those helpful links. all you others can go
>>>and have some more fun downloading music for free...
>>>
>>>does anybody even care about the artists involved?
>>>
>>>
>>>Am 29.11.2006 12:55 Uhr schrieb "xxx@xxxxxxx.xx" unter <xxx@xxxxxxx.xx>:
>>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>
>============================
>www.phoniq.net
>releases available on:
>www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>publication:
>www.vagueterrain.net
>
>
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-- 



--
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(Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
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"Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and 
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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 20:17:49 2006
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:16:46 -0800
From: Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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Well...

>i completely disagree. you're just looking for an excuse for your actions.
>i don't drive a porsche because i can't afford it (simple as that).

Copping a few tunes doesn't quite equate with stealing a Porsche. I 
drive a beat up '85 Dodge pickup, and that's just fine. It gets me 
there. Never been tempted to steal a Porsche. A '52 Jag XK120 maybe, 
but never a Porsche.

>  if
>everybody would think like you there would be no ADOBE very fast.

The "If Everybody..." argument has always been the refuge of the righteous.

>and it's
>so simple to argue that someone like mark knopfler and eric clapton anyway
>have enough money (so they sure won't mind).

Would you rather I make the argument more complicated?

>
>so basically you're saying that everybody that has more money then you do
>will not be supported in any way by you because your the poorer chap (or
>where do you put the line?)

Yep, that's pretty much the size of it.

R.

>
>
>Am 29.11.2006 20:33 Uhr schrieb "Robert Arnold" unter <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>:
>
>>  I certainly agree with you in principle, but sometimes principle has
>>  to take a back seat to poverty. I've had virtually no income for the
>>  past 6 months or so, and the music I download is not by struggling
>>  artists but by musicians who have more money than they know what to
>>  do with (the last time I downloaded it was stuff by Eric Clapton and
>>  Mark Knopfler). When I do have the funds to pay for CDs, that's when
>>  I buy stuff from musicians who need the money.
>>
>>  Same goes for software. I always pay for shareware by individual
>>  programmers for whom a few bucks matter, but Adobe won't go out of
>>  business if I get a boot of Photoshop, without which I can't do my
>>  own art. My ethics may be a bit slippery, but that's the way it is
>>  sometimes when you live on the fringes.
>>
>>  Sorry if my attitude offends anyone. I promise you that my principles
>>  will be higher as soon as I can afford them.
>>
>>  R.
>>
>>
>>>  Yes, but from what I understand, none of this money that goes to Allofmp3
>>>  goes to the artists.  I consider that a greater theft than just 
>>>trading good
>>>  tunes (since radio isn't doing its job nowadays).
>>>
>>>  ~Kyle
>>>
>>>  On 11/28/06, Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  You can download the album for 2 bucks from AllOfMP3:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>http://music.allofmp3.com/r2/Sunn_0)/Altar_(With_Boris)/group_66770/album_2/
>>>>  albref_14/mcatalog.shtml
>>>>
>>>>  AllOfMP3 is a great resource for downloading music. They're located
>>>>  in Russia, so their downloads are really cheap (important
>>>>  consideration for us po' folk). I've been using them for a couple of
>>>>  years and have found them very reliable to deal with - no problem
>>>>  with credit cards through their payment site.
>>>>
>>>>  R.
>>>>
>
>--
>
>.:.: http://www.synchron.ch :.:.
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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-- 



--
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(Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
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Nifty Stuff: http://www.cafepress.com/warbaby
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"Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would 
permit us to be pirates."

          - Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi


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Well, mp3 is the new FM radio.

When's the last time you heard an interesting and stimulating artist on a
(non-college or public) radio station or MTV?

~Kyle

On 11/29/06, Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> This is an excellent point. When I'm out on the net scrounging music,
> I always find stuff I've never heard of and probably wouldn't if I
> weren't. I play it for friends who can afford to buy music and if
> they like it, they probably do.
>
> Recently I read an interesting article with some interesting
> statistics on how "illegal" downloading actually increased the sales
> of some artists' music - if I can find it, I'll forward it to the
> list.
>
> R.
>
>
> >As an atheist with rather loose morals, I could really care less if
> >the general population thinks something is "wrong", "bad", or
> >"stealing".
> >
> >As an artist, I'd rather people find out about me outside of Chicago,
> >through illegal downloading, than to never hear me at all in places
> >like Barcelona, London, and Berlin, as is the case right now.
> >Hopefully, in the long term, people who check me out on soulseek will
> >end up buying my stuff, or booking me for a show, or at least
> >spreading the word, and guess what: I make MORE money, not LESS. So
> >possibly, they are not stealing from me, but actually working to
> >promote for me, and doing it for free.
> >
> >So the moral of the story is, go to beatport and buy my tracks ... ;-)
> >
> >~David
> >
>
> --
>
>
>
> --
> Website: http://www.warbaby.com
> (Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
> Blog: http://raggedwings.blogspot.com/
> Nifty Stuff: http://www.cafepress.com/warbaby
> --
>
> "Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would
> permit us to be pirates."
>
>           - Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>


-- 

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(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 20:06:43 2006
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This is an excellent point. When I'm out on the net scrounging music, 
I always find stuff I've never heard of and probably wouldn't if I 
weren't. I play it for friends who can afford to buy music and if 
they like it, they probably do.

Recently I read an interesting article with some interesting 
statistics on how "illegal" downloading actually increased the sales 
of some artists' music - if I can find it, I'll forward it to the 
list.

R.


>As an atheist with rather loose morals, I could really care less if
>the general population thinks something is "wrong", "bad", or
>"stealing".
>
>As an artist, I'd rather people find out about me outside of Chicago,
>through illegal downloading, than to never hear me at all in places
>like Barcelona, London, and Berlin, as is the case right now.
>Hopefully, in the long term, people who check me out on soulseek will
>end up buying my stuff, or booking me for a show, or at least
>spreading the word, and guess what: I make MORE money, not LESS. So
>possibly, they are not stealing from me, but actually working to
>promote for me, and doing it for free.
>
>So the moral of the story is, go to beatport and buy my tracks ... ;-)
>
>~David
>

-- 



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(Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
Blog: http://raggedwings.blogspot.com/
Nifty Stuff: http://www.cafepress.com/warbaby
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"Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would 
permit us to be pirates."

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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 19:49:37 2006
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From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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i haven't received any private e-mails, neil.

are you sure you have the right addresses?
maybe you mistyped them?

my point was:

there is a certain sense of entitlement i've discovered around  
musicians and promoters who feel like they are exempted from  
financially contributing to a marginal music scene because they are a  
creative part of it.

i don't think i'm imagining this.

g.


On 29-Nov-06, at 2:33 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:

>
> READ YOUR PRIVATE EMAIL!!!
> and hostile simply because your a fucking condesending asshole
> even this reply is fucking condisending!!! get your shit together  
> and think about what you do before you do it!!!!
>
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:
>
>> yikes.
>> that's wasn't very nice.
>> in fact, it was kind of mean spirited, actually.
>> i don't usually get called those sort of names unless i'm driving  
>> my car.
>>
>> why so hostile? you should check this out: http://www.apa.org/ 
>> topics/controlanger.html
>> and this: http://www.spellcheck.net/
>>
>> and i thought we were actually kind of getting along these days.
>> oh well.
>>
>> all the best,
>>
>> graham
>>
>>
>> On 29-Nov-06, at 1:59 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>
>>> what are you talking about graham??? your a compleat fool!!!!
>>> and a huge mother fucking LOOSER!!!! as I support the local  
>>> toronto scene more then most people do asswipe!!!
>>> see your private email box for more on this no reason for this to  
>>> be public
>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:
>>>> when was the last time you payed cover or full price cover to  
>>>> support local techno artists, neil?
>>>> On 29-Nov-06, at 1:38 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>>> as an artist who knows his stuff is being freely traded in  
>>>>> places like soulseek I often feel the exact same way ...
>>>>> so next time im on tour in a town close to anyone expect me to  
>>>>> crash on your couches, eat your food and drink your drinks all  
>>>>> free simply becasue I dont want to pay for it...
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>>>> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>>>>>> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors  
>>>>>> fridge because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>>>>>> aLEKs
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>>
>
> ============================
> www.phoniq.net
> releases available on:
> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> publication:
> www.vagueterrain.net
>
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hey david feel free have me down to play any old time I would be happy to 
not fall sleep at any after party...
(new full length is out in feb 07 on noise factory)
;)
neil..


On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, David Powers wrote:

> On 11/29/06, Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> Well Neil, I don't know how they do it in Toronto, but in Chicago we
> always treat our visiting guests well, and free couches, drinks, and
> meals are par for the course. Seriously.
>
> There is a catch - we expect you to hang out at the afterparty at
> least until sunrise tagteaming and partying... (The only one who
> totally failed on this count in recent memory was sleeparchive; my
> friend has a hilarious picture of him sleeping on the couch, which,
> given his stage name, is hilarious. )
>
> ;-)
>
> ~David
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

============================
www.phoniq.net
releases available on:
www.noisefactoryrecords.com
publication:
www.vagueterrain.net

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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 19:43:29 2006
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i completely disagree. you're just looking for an excuse for your actions.
i don't drive a porsche because i can't afford it (simple as that). if
everybody would think like you there would be no ADOBE very fast. and it's
so simple to argue that someone like mark knopfler and eric clapton anyway
have enough money (so they sure won't mind).

so basically you're saying that everybody that has more money then you do
will not be supported in any way by you because your the poorer chap (or
where do you put the line?)


Am 29.11.2006 20:33 Uhr schrieb "Robert Arnold" unter <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>:

> I certainly agree with you in principle, but sometimes principle has
> to take a back seat to poverty. I've had virtually no income for the
> past 6 months or so, and the music I download is not by struggling
> artists but by musicians who have more money than they know what to
> do with (the last time I downloaded it was stuff by Eric Clapton and
> Mark Knopfler). When I do have the funds to pay for CDs, that's when
> I buy stuff from musicians who need the money.
> 
> Same goes for software. I always pay for shareware by individual
> programmers for whom a few bucks matter, but Adobe won't go out of
> business if I get a boot of Photoshop, without which I can't do my
> own art. My ethics may be a bit slippery, but that's the way it is
> sometimes when you live on the fringes.
> 
> Sorry if my attitude offends anyone. I promise you that my principles
> will be higher as soon as I can afford them.
> 
> R.
> 
> 
>> Yes, but from what I understand, none of this money that goes to Allofmp3
>> goes to the artists.  I consider that a greater theft than just trading good
>> tunes (since radio isn't doing its job nowadays).
>> 
>> ~Kyle
>> 
>> On 11/28/06, Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>> 
>>> You can download the album for 2 bucks from AllOfMP3:
>>> 
>>> http://music.allofmp3.com/r2/Sunn_0)/Altar_(With_Boris)/group_66770/album_2/
>>> albref_14/mcatalog.shtml
>>> 
>>> AllOfMP3 is a great resource for downloading music. They're located
>>> in Russia, so their downloads are really cheap (important
>>> consideration for us po' folk). I've been using them for a couple of
>>> years and have found them very reliable to deal with - no problem
>>> with credit cards through their payment site.
>>> 
>>> R.
>>> 

-- 

..:.: http://www.synchron.ch :.:.


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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 19:37:30 2006
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and all i wanted 24 hours ago is to ask if some of you friendly people know
a place where i maybe still can buy a limited cd release. oh well...

amazing where a simple question like that can lead to...
love ya all, ralph.


Am 29.11.2006 20:33 Uhr schrieb "Neil Wiernik" unter <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>:

> 
> READ YOUR PRIVATE EMAIL!!!
> and hostile simply because your a fucking condesending asshole
> even this reply is fucking condisending!!! get your shit together and
> think about what you do before you do it!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:
> 
>> yikes.
>> that's wasn't very nice.
>> in fact, it was kind of mean spirited, actually.
>> i don't usually get called those sort of names unless i'm driving my car.
>> 
>> why so hostile? you should check this out:
>> http://www.apa.org/topics/controlanger.html
>> and this: http://www.spellcheck.net/
>> 
>> and i thought we were actually kind of getting along these days.
>> oh well.
>> 
>> all the best,
>> 
>> graham
>> 
>> 
>> On 29-Nov-06, at 1:59 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> what are you talking about graham??? your a compleat fool!!!!
>>> and a huge mother fucking LOOSER!!!! as I support the local toronto scene
>>> more then most people do asswipe!!!
>>> see your private email box for more on this no reason for this to be public
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:
>>> 
>>>> when was the last time you payed cover or full price cover to support
>>>> local techno artists, neil?
>>>> 
>>>> On 29-Nov-06, at 1:38 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> as an artist who knows his stuff is being freely traded in places like
>>>>> soulseek I often feel the exact same way ...
>>>>> so next time im on tour in a town close to anyone expect me to crash on
>>>>> your couches, eat your food and drink your drinks all free simply becasue
>>>>> I dont want to pay for it...
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>>>> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>>>>>> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors fridge
>>>>>> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>>>>>> aLEKs
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>> 
> 
> ============================
> www.phoniq.net
> releases available on:
> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> publication:
> www.vagueterrain.net
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 

-- 

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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 19:37:01 2006
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all calls for projects, job opportunities, promotional postings etc  
etc belong on the microsound announce list – not this one!
please read the microsound web page!:

> you can also subscribe to the microsound-announce list that holds  
> show announcements, music releases, podcasts and anything that's  
> not aesthetic discussion.


AND NO CROSS-POSTING!!


WITH ONE EXCEPTION: GRAHAM CAN CROSS-DRESS! ;)

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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 19:35:13 2006
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I certainly agree with you in principle, but sometimes principle has 
to take a back seat to poverty. I've had virtually no income for the 
past 6 months or so, and the music I download is not by struggling 
artists but by musicians who have more money than they know what to 
do with (the last time I downloaded it was stuff by Eric Clapton and 
Mark Knopfler). When I do have the funds to pay for CDs, that's when 
I buy stuff from musicians who need the money.

Same goes for software. I always pay for shareware by individual 
programmers for whom a few bucks matter, but Adobe won't go out of 
business if I get a boot of Photoshop, without which I can't do my 
own art. My ethics may be a bit slippery, but that's the way it is 
sometimes when you live on the fringes.

Sorry if my attitude offends anyone. I promise you that my principles 
will be higher as soon as I can afford them.

R.


>Yes, but from what I understand, none of this money that goes to Allofmp3
>goes to the artists.  I consider that a greater theft than just trading good
>tunes (since radio isn't doing its job nowadays).
>
>~Kyle
>
>On 11/28/06, Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>
>>You can download the album for 2 bucks from AllOfMP3:
>>
>>http://music.allofmp3.com/r2/Sunn_0)/Altar_(With_Boris)/group_66770/album_2/albref_14/mcatalog.shtml
>>
>>AllOfMP3 is a great resource for downloading music. They're located
>>in Russia, so their downloads are really cheap (important
>>consideration for us po' folk). I've been using them for a couple of
>>years and have found them very reliable to deal with - no problem
>>with credit cards through their payment site.
>>
>>R.
>>

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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 19:33:48 2006
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From: David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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I agree. All I was really trying to say, is that the refrigerator
analogy is terrible, because it's NOT like taking food from your
neighbor's fridge.

It might be stealing, but it's different in kind... Regardless of your
views, intellectual property should not be considered the same as
tangible physical property, it's just not. Mixing up the two only
confuses an already muddled issue.

~David

On 11/29/06, Xdugef <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> That's not how copyright infringements work.. the penalties are based
> on loss of revenue. If you are about to release a new album and
> somebody dumps mp3's of it all the internet then theoretically less
> people will buy your album because they can just download it.
>
> Now if you album is out of print and you relaly have no intention of
> re-releasing it then... it would be harder to argue profit loss.
>
> It's more like stealing profit potential...
>
> AD
>
>
>
> --- David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but isn't the primary reason that "stealing" is so bad, due to
> > the fact that if you take someone else's food/car/cash, then they no
> > longer have it. But in this case: If you make a digital copy, it does
> > not deprive the original owner of their possession. So your metaphor
> > just doesn't work. You need a different approach to discuss the
> > ethics
> > of the situation.
> >
> > ~David
>
>
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READ YOUR PRIVATE EMAIL!!!
and hostile simply because your a fucking condesending asshole
even this reply is fucking condisending!!! get your shit together and 
think about what you do before you do it!!!!



On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:

> yikes.
> that's wasn't very nice.
> in fact, it was kind of mean spirited, actually.
> i don't usually get called those sort of names unless i'm driving my car.
>
> why so hostile? you should check this out: 
> http://www.apa.org/topics/controlanger.html
> and this: http://www.spellcheck.net/
>
> and i thought we were actually kind of getting along these days.
> oh well.
>
> all the best,
>
> graham
>
>
> On 29-Nov-06, at 1:59 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> what are you talking about graham??? your a compleat fool!!!!
>> and a huge mother fucking LOOSER!!!! as I support the local toronto scene 
>> more then most people do asswipe!!!
>> see your private email box for more on this no reason for this to be public
>> 
>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:
>> 
>>> when was the last time you payed cover or full price cover to support 
>>> local techno artists, neil?
>>> 
>>> On 29-Nov-06, at 1:38 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>> 
>>>> as an artist who knows his stuff is being freely traded in places like 
>>>> soulseek I often feel the exact same way ...
>>>> so next time im on tour in a town close to anyone expect me to crash on 
>>>> your couches, eat your food and drink your drinks all free simply becasue 
>>>> I dont want to pay for it...
>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>>> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>>>>> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors fridge 
>>>>> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>>>>> aLEKs
>
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>

============================
www.phoniq.net
releases available on:
www.noisefactoryrecords.com
publication:
www.vagueterrain.net

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Steal (ie free stuff):
www.cyborgk.com
www.myspace.com/cyborgk

Buy:
www.beatport.com
just search for "Cyborg K", new ep is called "Transmission from Sirius B"

On 11/29/06, Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
> from where can we steal and/or buy your music? links please!
>

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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 19:28:38 2006
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On 11/29/06, Neil Wiernik <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>
> as an artist who knows his stuff is being freely traded in places like
> soulseek I often feel the exact same way ...
> so next time im on tour in a town close to anyone expect me to crash on
> your couches, eat your food and drink your drinks all free simply becasue
> I dont want to pay for it...

Well Neil, I don't know how they do it in Toronto, but in Chicago we
always treat our visiting guests well, and free couches, drinks, and
meals are par for the course. Seriously.

There is a catch - we expect you to hang out at the afterparty at
least until sunrise tagteaming and partying... (The only one who
totally failed on this count in recent memory was sleeparchive; my
friend has a hilarious picture of him sleeping on the couch, which,
given his stage name, is hilarious. )

;-)

~David

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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 19:20:21 2006
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:20:11 -0500
From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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yikes.
that's wasn't very nice.
in fact, it was kind of mean spirited, actually.
i don't usually get called those sort of names unless i'm driving my  
car.

why so hostile? you should check this out: http://www.apa.org/topics/ 
controlanger.html
and this: http://www.spellcheck.net/

and i thought we were actually kind of getting along these days.
oh well.

all the best,

graham


On 29-Nov-06, at 1:59 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:

>
>
> what are you talking about graham??? your a compleat fool!!!!
> and a huge mother fucking LOOSER!!!! as I support the local toronto  
> scene more then most people do asswipe!!!
> see your private email box for more on this no reason for this to  
> be public
>
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:
>
>> when was the last time you payed cover or full price cover to  
>> support local techno artists, neil?
>>
>> On 29-Nov-06, at 1:38 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>
>>> as an artist who knows his stuff is being freely traded in places  
>>> like soulseek I often feel the exact same way ...
>>> so next time im on tour in a town close to anyone expect me to  
>>> crash on your couches, eat your food and drink your drinks all  
>>> free simply becasue I dont want to pay for it...
>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>>>> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors  
>>>> fridge because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>>>> aLEKs

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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 19:17:02 2006
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From: Xdugef <xxxx@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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That's not how copyright infringements work.. the penalties are based
on loss of revenue. If you are about to release a new album and
somebody dumps mp3's of it all the internet then theoretically less
people will buy your album because they can just download it.

Now if you album is out of print and you relaly have no intention of
re-releasing it then... it would be harder to argue profit loss.

It's more like stealing profit potential...

AD



--- David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> Yeah, but isn't the primary reason that "stealing" is so bad, due to
> the fact that if you take someone else's food/car/cash, then they no
> longer have it. But in this case: If you make a digital copy, it does
> not deprive the original owner of their possession. So your metaphor
> just doesn't work. You need a different approach to discuss the
> ethics
> of the situation.
> 
> ~David


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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 19:02:32 2006
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Wow, somebody woke up on the wrong side of the rock this morning!(great  
ad campaign)

aLEKs


On Nov 29, 2006, at 1:59 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:

>
>
> what are you talking about graham??? your a compleat fool!!!!
> and a huge mother fucking LOOSER!!!! as I support the local toronto  
> scene more then most people do asswipe!!!
> see your private email box for more on this no reason for this to be  
> public
>
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:
>
>> when was the last time you payed cover or full price cover to support  
>> local techno artists, neil?
>>
>> On 29-Nov-06, at 1:38 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>>
>>> as an artist who knows his stuff is being freely traded in places  
>>> like soulseek I often feel the exact same way ...
>>> so next time im on tour in a town close to anyone expect me to crash  
>>> on your couches, eat your food and drink your drinks all free simply  
>>> becasue I dont want to pay for it...
>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>>>> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>>>> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors  
>>>> fridge because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>>>> aLEKs
>>>> On Nov 29, 2006, at 8:19 AM, steinbrüchel wrote:
>>>>> great... all this ripping and stealing info is really very helpful.
>>>>> am i the only one still buying the original cd releases? i'm
>>>>> not interested in getting it cheap or for free. i'm interested in
>>>>> getting the original 2cd limited version and i already found a
>>>>> place so thanks to those helpful links. all you others can go
>>>>> and have some more fun downloading music for free...
>>>>> does anybody even care about the artists involved?
>>>>> Am 29.11.2006 12:55 Uhr schrieb "xxx@xxxxxxx.xx" unter  
>>>>> <xxx@xxxxxxx.xx>:
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>> -
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>> ============================
>>> www.phoniq.net
>>> releases available on:
>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>>> publication:
>>> www.vagueterrain.net
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>
> ============================
> www.phoniq.net
> releases available on:
> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> publication:
> www.vagueterrain.net
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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what are you talking about graham??? your a compleat fool!!!!
and a huge mother fucking LOOSER!!!! as I support the local toronto scene 
more then most people do asswipe!!!
see your private email box for more on this no reason for this to be 
public

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Graham Miller wrote:

> when was the last time you payed cover or full price cover to support local 
> techno artists, neil?
>
> On 29-Nov-06, at 1:38 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> as an artist who knows his stuff is being freely traded in places like 
>> soulseek I often feel the exact same way ...
>> so next time im on tour in a town close to anyone expect me to crash on 
>> your couches, eat your food and drink your drinks all free simply becasue I 
>> dont want to pay for it...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>> 
>>> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>>> 
>>> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors fridge 
>>> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>>> 
>>> aLEKs
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Nov 29, 2006, at 8:19 AM, steinbrüchel wrote:
>>> 
>>>> great... all this ripping and stealing info is really very helpful.
>>>> am i the only one still buying the original cd releases? i'm
>>>> not interested in getting it cheap or for free. i'm interested in
>>>> getting the original 2cd limited version and i already found a
>>>> place so thanks to those helpful links. all you others can go
>>>> and have some more fun downloading music for free...
>>>> does anybody even care about the artists involved?
>>>> Am 29.11.2006 12:55 Uhr schrieb "xxx@xxxxxxx.xx" unter <xxx@xxxxxxx.xx>:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ============================
>> www.phoniq.net
>> releases available on:
>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
>> publication:
>> www.vagueterrain.net
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>

============================
www.phoniq.net
releases available on:
www.noisefactoryrecords.com
publication:
www.vagueterrain.net
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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 18:49:46 2006
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when was the last time you payed cover or full price cover to support  
local techno artists, neil?

On 29-Nov-06, at 1:38 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:

>
>
> as an artist who knows his stuff is being freely traded in places  
> like soulseek I often feel the exact same way ...
> so next time im on tour in a town close to anyone expect me to  
> crash on your couches, eat your food and drink your drinks all free  
> simply becasue I dont want to pay for it...
>
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, aleks vasic wrote:
>
>> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>>
>> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors  
>> fridge because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>>
>> aLEKs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 29, 2006, at 8:19 AM, steinbrüchel wrote:
>>
>>> great... all this ripping and stealing info is really very helpful.
>>> am i the only one still buying the original cd releases? i'm
>>> not interested in getting it cheap or for free. i'm interested in
>>> getting the original 2cd limited version and i already found a
>>> place so thanks to those helpful links. all you others can go
>>> and have some more fun downloading music for free...
>>> does anybody even care about the artists involved?
>>> Am 29.11.2006 12:55 Uhr schrieb "xxx@xxxxxxx.xx" unter  
>>> <xxx@xxxxxxx.xx>:
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>>
>
> ============================
> www.phoniq.net
> releases available on:
> www.noisefactoryrecords.com
> publication:
> www.vagueterrain.net
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org


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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 18:37:30 2006
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as an artist who knows his stuff is being freely traded in places like 
soulseek I often feel the exact same way ...
so next time im on tour in a town close to anyone expect me to crash on 
your couches, eat your food and drink your drinks all free simply becasue 
I dont want to pay for it...



On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, aleks vasic wrote:

> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>
> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors fridge because 
> i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>
> aLEKs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2006, at 8:19 AM, steinbrüchel wrote:
>
>> great... all this ripping and stealing info is really very helpful.
>> am i the only one still buying the original cd releases? i'm
>> not interested in getting it cheap or for free. i'm interested in
>> getting the original 2cd limited version and i already found a
>> place so thanks to those helpful links. all you others can go
>> and have some more fun downloading music for free...
>> 
>> does anybody even care about the artists involved?
>> 
>> 
>> Am 29.11.2006 12:55 Uhr schrieb "xxx@xxxxxxx.xx" unter <xxx@xxxxxxx.xx>:
>> 
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>

============================
www.phoniq.net
releases available on:
www.noisefactoryrecords.com
publication:
www.vagueterrain.net
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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 18:32:13 2006
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from where can we steal and/or buy your music? links please!

On 29-Nov-06, at 1:15 PM, David Powers wrote:

> As an atheist with rather loose morals, I could really care less if
> the general population thinks something is "wrong", "bad", or
> "stealing".
>
> As an artist, I'd rather people find out about me outside of Chicago,
> through illegal downloading, than to never hear me at all in places
> like Barcelona, London, and Berlin, as is the case right now.
> Hopefully, in the long term, people who check me out on soulseek will
> end up buying my stuff, or booking me for a show, or at least
> spreading the word, and guess what: I make MORE money, not LESS. So
> possibly, they are not stealing from me, but actually working to
> promote for me, and doing it for free.
>
> So the moral of the story is, go to beatport and buy my tracks ... ;-)
>
> ~David
>
> On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
>> No i disagree.  Its semantics.  You take someone else's property
>> regardless of whether it is art, music, food, and idea.  Your  
>> stealing
>> period.  Music created by an individual is their property, not yours.
>> Downloading it illegally is stealing.  Actually your logic is flawed.
>> When you download an artist's song illegally, you deprive them of the
>> profit that they charge for their hard work.  Wether it be a penny or
>> whatever.
>>
>> Rolls twenty sided die
>>
>> Critical strike!
>>
>> Fuck yeah baby im a D&D god!
>>
>> aLEKs
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 29, 2006, at 12:45 PM, David Powers wrote:
>>
>> > Yeah, but isn't the primary reason that "stealing" is so bad,  
>> due to
>> > the fact that if you take someone else's food/car/cash, then  
>> they no
>> > longer have it. But in this case: If you make a digital copy, it  
>> does
>> > not deprive the original owner of their possession. So your  
>> metaphor
>> > just doesn't work. You need a different approach to discuss the  
>> ethics
>> > of the situation.
>> >
>> > ~David
>> >
>> > On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
>> >> Huh?  Magic?
>> >>
>> >> Granted its a quick example but its just a reference to
>> >> stealing/theft/not paying for something youwant.
>> >>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> aLEKs
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Nov 29, 2006, at 11:51 AM, David Powers wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Except in this case, your neighbor's fridge is magic, and no  
>> matter
>> >> > how much food you eat, there is still the same amount left in  
>> the
>> >> > fridge, so nobody has to hungry... You shouldn't use scarcity- 
>> based
>> >> > logic to define an economic situation where scarcity only exists
>> >> > artificially.
>> >> >
>> >> > ~David
>> >> >
>> >> > On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
>> >> >> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors
>> >> fridge
>> >> >> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> aLEKs
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>  
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> >> > website: http://www.microsound.org
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >> website: http://www.microsound.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >  
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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 18:30:17 2006
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> As an atheist with rather loose morals, I could really care less if
> the general population thinks something is "wrong", "bad", or
> "stealing".

Ok, but not everyone will share you opinion, i do actually, but 
metallica sure does not! :)


> As an artist, I'd rather people find out about me outside of Chicago,
> through illegal downloading, than to never hear me at all in places
> like Barcelona, London, and Berlin, as is the case right now.
> Hopefully, in the long term, people who check me out on soulseek will
> end up buying my stuff, or booking me for a show, or at least
> spreading the word, and guess what: I make MORE money, not LESS. So
> possibly, they are not stealing from me, but actually working to
> promote for me, and doing it for free.
>
> So the moral of the story is, go to beatport and buy my tracks ... ;-)
>
> ~David
>

Agreed.  But that is your situation.  I know its a common one but it is 
definitely a relative/point of reference thing.  I think for most 
people on this site your example would be a benefit.  Once someone is 
established, its a different story altogether.  Have i downloaded MP3's 
illegally?  Sure i have.  But i do buy as much music as i can afford.  
The collectors mentality is some thing i truly enjoy.  I think there is 
a big difference between having a cd release on mp3 and having the real 
mcoy, packaging an all.  unfortunately there is no way i could ever 
really afford all of the music that i would want to own.

aLEKs


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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 18:16:11 2006
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As an atheist with rather loose morals, I could really care less if
the general population thinks something is "wrong", "bad", or
"stealing".

As an artist, I'd rather people find out about me outside of Chicago,
through illegal downloading, than to never hear me at all in places
like Barcelona, London, and Berlin, as is the case right now.
Hopefully, in the long term, people who check me out on soulseek will
end up buying my stuff, or booking me for a show, or at least
spreading the word, and guess what: I make MORE money, not LESS. So
possibly, they are not stealing from me, but actually working to
promote for me, and doing it for free.

So the moral of the story is, go to beatport and buy my tracks ... ;-)

~David

On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
> No i disagree.  Its semantics.  You take someone else's property
> regardless of whether it is art, music, food, and idea.  Your stealing
> period.  Music created by an individual is their property, not yours.
> Downloading it illegally is stealing.  Actually your logic is flawed.
> When you download an artist's song illegally, you deprive them of the
> profit that they charge for their hard work.  Wether it be a penny or
> whatever.
>
> Rolls twenty sided die
>
> Critical strike!
>
> Fuck yeah baby im a D&D god!
>
> aLEKs
>
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2006, at 12:45 PM, David Powers wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but isn't the primary reason that "stealing" is so bad, due to
> > the fact that if you take someone else's food/car/cash, then they no
> > longer have it. But in this case: If you make a digital copy, it does
> > not deprive the original owner of their possession. So your metaphor
> > just doesn't work. You need a different approach to discuss the ethics
> > of the situation.
> >
> > ~David
> >
> > On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
> >> Huh?  Magic?
> >>
> >> Granted its a quick example but its just a reference to
> >> stealing/theft/not paying for something youwant.
> >>
> >
> >>
> >> aLEKs
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Nov 29, 2006, at 11:51 AM, David Powers wrote:
> >>
> >> > Except in this case, your neighbor's fridge is magic, and no matter
> >> > how much food you eat, there is still the same amount left in the
> >> > fridge, so nobody has to hungry... You shouldn't use scarcity-based
> >> > logic to define an economic situation where scarcity only exists
> >> > artificially.
> >> >
> >> > ~David
> >> >
> >> > On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
> >> >> Yeah, i feel the same way.
> >> >>
> >> >> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors
> >> fridge
> >> >> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
> >> >>
> >> >> aLEKs
> >> >
> >> >
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >> website: http://www.microsound.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
>
>
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--Boundary_(ID_61jI35c8FL/OFI28cq961g)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Here here!  Rah rah!  Amen!

~Kyle

On 11/29/06, David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> Look, I'm an artist, I've got stuff on beatport right now...
>
> Would I prefer that people buy from beatport rather than illegally
> file share? Of course.
>
> But... Would I be willing to accept some stealing, if it ends up
> getting my more notoriety, shows, and in the end, higher sales?
> Definitely! I use soulseek to check out new artists, and I can assure
> you that I've bought releases from people I had no idea about, because
> I listened first to a bootleg.
>
> Anyway, I'd make more money if I got rid of the label, distributor,
> and shop, and people just bought direct from me. Which, since my label
> has done ZERO promotion and I'm stuck doing everything myself, is
> starting to sound like a better idea every day.
>
> Finally, we are talking about a situation where a release is only
> available for ridiculous prices on ebay. I say it's up to the
> individual to decide, if they want to use soulseek in such a case.
> Everyone has a different ethical perspective. I think it's ridiculous
> to try to moralize and tell people how bad thieves they are! Rational
> adults should way the various angles and make their own decisions.
> Everyone does not see it in the same way, and why should they?
>
> Anyway, in answer to the original thread question, I'd recommend the
> person looking for the release to try just contacting the artist
> directly. If they are like me in any way, they'd happily provide
> something and you can donate directly to them. Or use soulseek and
> send them a check...
>
> ~David
>
> On 11/29/06, david.microsuoni <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> >
> >
> > you steal money to the artist, the label, the producer, the distributor,
> the shop....
> >
> > >longer have it. But in this case: If you make a digital copy, it does
> > >not deprive the original owner of their possession.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>
>


-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
(())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
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--Boundary_(ID_61jI35c8FL/OFI28cq961g)--

From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 18:10:33 2006
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Look, I'm an artist, I've got stuff on beatport right now...

Would I prefer that people buy from beatport rather than illegally
file share? Of course.

But... Would I be willing to accept some stealing, if it ends up
getting my more notoriety, shows, and in the end, higher sales?
Definitely! I use soulseek to check out new artists, and I can assure
you that I've bought releases from people I had no idea about, because
I listened first to a bootleg.

Anyway, I'd make more money if I got rid of the label, distributor,
and shop, and people just bought direct from me. Which, since my label
has done ZERO promotion and I'm stuck doing everything myself, is
starting to sound like a better idea every day.

Finally, we are talking about a situation where a release is only
available for ridiculous prices on ebay. I say it's up to the
individual to decide, if they want to use soulseek in such a case.
Everyone has a different ethical perspective. I think it's ridiculous
to try to moralize and tell people how bad thieves they are! Rational
adults should way the various angles and make their own decisions.
Everyone does not see it in the same way, and why should they?

Anyway, in answer to the original thread question, I'd recommend the
person looking for the release to try just contacting the artist
directly. If they are like me in any way, they'd happily provide
something and you can donate directly to them. Or use soulseek and
send them a check...

~David

On 11/29/06, david.microsuoni <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>
> you steal money to the artist, the label, the producer, the distributor, the shop....
>
> >longer have it. But in this case: If you make a digital copy, it does
> >not deprive the original owner of their possession.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>

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What about if you buy a used cd?

~Kyle

On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
>
> No i disagree.  Its semantics.  You take someone else's property
> regardless of whether it is art, music, food, and idea.  Your stealing
> period.  Music created by an individual is their property, not yours.
> Downloading it illegally is stealing.  Actually your logic is flawed.
> When you download an artist's song illegally, you deprive them of the
> profit that they charge for their hard work.  Wether it be a penny or
> whatever.
>
> Rolls twenty sided die
>
> Critical strike!
>
> Fuck yeah baby im a D&D god!
>
> aLEKs
>
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2006, at 12:45 PM, David Powers wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but isn't the primary reason that "stealing" is so bad, due to
> > the fact that if you take someone else's food/car/cash, then they no
> > longer have it. But in this case: If you make a digital copy, it does
> > not deprive the original owner of their possession. So your metaphor
> > just doesn't work. You need a different approach to discuss the ethics
> > of the situation.
> >
> > ~David
> >
> > On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
> >> Huh?  Magic?
> >>
> >> Granted its a quick example but its just a reference to
> >> stealing/theft/not paying for something youwant.
> >>
> >
> >>
> >> aLEKs
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Nov 29, 2006, at 11:51 AM, David Powers wrote:
> >>
> >> > Except in this case, your neighbor's fridge is magic, and no matter
> >> > how much food you eat, there is still the same amount left in the
> >> > fridge, so nobody has to hungry... You shouldn't use scarcity-based
> >> > logic to define an economic situation where scarcity only exists
> >> > artificially.
> >> >
> >> > ~David
> >> >
> >> > On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
> >> >> Yeah, i feel the same way.
> >> >>
> >> >> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors
> >> fridge
> >> >> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
> >> >>
> >> >> aLEKs
> >> >
> >> >
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> >> >
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >
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> >
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>
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>
>


-- 

http://theradioproject.com
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))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
_____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
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you steal money to the artist, the label, the producer, the distributor, the shop....

>longer have it. But in this case: If you make a digital copy, it does
>not deprive the original owner of their possession.


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Oh its way the farg up there.  I stole it from the frost giant in my 
last campaign.  Virtually impregnable, but at the cost of constantly 
freezing my nuts off as well as massive shrinkage...


aLEKs



On Nov 29, 2006, at 12:24 PM, Graham Miller wrote:

> what's your armour class, baby?
>
> On 29-Nov-06, at 11:58 AM, aleks vasic wrote:
>
>> Huh?  Magic?
>>
>> Granted its a quick example but its just a reference to 
>> stealing/theft/not paying for something youwant.


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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 17:51:37 2006
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No i disagree.  Its semantics.  You take someone else's property 
regardless of whether it is art, music, food, and idea.  Your stealing 
period.  Music created by an individual is their property, not yours.  
Downloading it illegally is stealing.  Actually your logic is flawed.  
When you download an artist's song illegally, you deprive them of the 
profit that they charge for their hard work.  Wether it be a penny or 
whatever.

Rolls twenty sided die

Critical strike!

Fuck yeah baby im a D&D god!

aLEKs



On Nov 29, 2006, at 12:45 PM, David Powers wrote:

> Yeah, but isn't the primary reason that "stealing" is so bad, due to
> the fact that if you take someone else's food/car/cash, then they no
> longer have it. But in this case: If you make a digital copy, it does
> not deprive the original owner of their possession. So your metaphor
> just doesn't work. You need a different approach to discuss the ethics
> of the situation.
>
> ~David
>
> On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
>> Huh?  Magic?
>>
>> Granted its a quick example but its just a reference to
>> stealing/theft/not paying for something youwant.
>>
>
>>
>> aLEKs
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 29, 2006, at 11:51 AM, David Powers wrote:
>>
>> > Except in this case, your neighbor's fridge is magic, and no matter
>> > how much food you eat, there is still the same amount left in the
>> > fridge, so nobody has to hungry... You shouldn't use scarcity-based
>> > logic to define an economic situation where scarcity only exists
>> > artificially.
>> >
>> > ~David
>> >
>> > On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
>> >> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>> >>
>> >> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors 
>> fridge
>> >> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>> >>
>> >> aLEKs
>> >
>> > 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> > website: http://www.microsound.org
>> >
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>


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some music isn't quite itself on mp3, indeed. it first occured to me 
too while listening to Ikeda.


+ http://www.formatt.info
On 29-nov-06, at 18:49, david.microsuoni wrote:

>>> i started to keep cds in the car box and buy hard disk for mp3s...
>
> but are you really happy with mp3 quality?
>
> i CAN hear the difference, no matter what they want us believe, i 
> couldn't listen to Ikeda or Lucier on mp3...
> it's not their music, it's a replica.


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>>i started to keep cds in the car box and buy hard disk for mp3s...

but are you really happy with mp3 quality?

i CAN hear the difference, no matter what they want us believe, i couldn't listen to Ikeda or Lucier on mp3...
it's not their music, it's a replica.

david.

http://microsuoni.com

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Yeah, but isn't the primary reason that "stealing" is so bad, due to
the fact that if you take someone else's food/car/cash, then they no
longer have it. But in this case: If you make a digital copy, it does
not deprive the original owner of their possession. So your metaphor
just doesn't work. You need a different approach to discuss the ethics
of the situation.

~David

On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
> Huh?  Magic?
>
> Granted its a quick example but its just a reference to
> stealing/theft/not paying for something youwant.
>

>
> aLEKs
>
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2006, at 11:51 AM, David Powers wrote:
>
> > Except in this case, your neighbor's fridge is magic, and no matter
> > how much food you eat, there is still the same amount left in the
> > fridge, so nobody has to hungry... You shouldn't use scarcity-based
> > logic to define an economic situation where scarcity only exists
> > artificially.
> >
> > ~David
> >
> > On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
> >> Yeah, i feel the same way.
> >>
> >> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors fridge
> >> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
> >>
> >> aLEKs
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> >
>
>
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what's your armour class, baby?

On 29-Nov-06, at 11:58 AM, aleks vasic wrote:

> Huh?  Magic?
>
> Granted its a quick example but its just a reference to stealing/ 
> theft/not paying for something youwant.
>
> Your right though.  My example should have included magic and a 20  
> sided D&D die.
>
> Roll die..
>
> An 18!  Yes the new Stribord CD.  Hot damn!:)
>
> aLEKs
>
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2006, at 11:51 AM, David Powers wrote:
>
>> Except in this case, your neighbor's fridge is magic, and no matter
>> how much food you eat, there is still the same amount left in the
>> fridge, so nobody has to hungry... You shouldn't use scarcity-based
>> logic to define an economic situation where scarcity only exists
>> artificially.
>>
>> ~David
>>
>> On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
>>> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>>>
>>> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors  
>>> fridge
>>> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>>>
>>> aLEKs
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>>
>
>
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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 16:58:24 2006
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Huh?  Magic?

Granted its a quick example but its just a reference to 
stealing/theft/not paying for something youwant.

Your right though.  My example should have included magic and a 20 
sided D&D die.

Roll die..

An 18!  Yes the new Stribord CD.  Hot damn!:)

aLEKs



On Nov 29, 2006, at 11:51 AM, David Powers wrote:

> Except in this case, your neighbor's fridge is magic, and no matter
> how much food you eat, there is still the same amount left in the
> fridge, so nobody has to hungry... You shouldn't use scarcity-based
> logic to define an economic situation where scarcity only exists
> artificially.
>
> ~David
>
> On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
>> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>>
>> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors fridge
>> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>>
>> aLEKs
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>


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Except in this case, your neighbor's fridge is magic, and no matter
how much food you eat, there is still the same amount left in the
fridge, so nobody has to hungry... You shouldn't use scarcity-based
logic to define an economic situation where scarcity only exists
artificially.

~David

On 11/29/06, aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
> Yeah, i feel the same way.
>
> Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors fridge
> because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.
>
> aLEKs

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Subject: [microsound] mathematical music reading list
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this list was cut and pasted from post by Peter Castine to the Max/ 
MSP list...I thought I'd post it here in case some people might find  
it useful...maybe some industrious soul can start a microsound Wiki  
page and we can add to it?
thanks
KIM

> and set theory...
>
> Here is the recommended reading list from a seminar I gave on this  
> a few years back.
>
> Lehrbücher
> Forte, Allen. The Structure of Atonal Music. New Haven, Conn.: Yale  
> University Press, 1973.
> Morris, Robert D. Class Notes for Atonal Music Theory. Hanover, New  
> Hamphsire: Forg Peak Music, 1991.
> Morris, Robert D. Composition with Pitch-Classes. New Haven: Yale  
> University Press, 1987.
> Rahn, John. Basic Atonal Theory. New York: Schirmer Books, 1980.
>
> Weitere Literature
> Alphonce, Bo Harry. “The Invariance Matrix.” Ph.D. dissertation,  
> Yale University, 1974.
> Babbitt, Milton. “Set Strucuture as a Compositional Determinant.”  
> JMT 5, no. 2 (1961): 72-94.
> Babbitt, Milton. “Some Aspects of Twelve-Tone Composition.”  12  
> (1955): 53-61.
> Babbitt, Milton. “Twelve-Tone Invariants as Compositional  
> Determinants.” MQ 46, no. 2 (1960): 246-59.
> Chrisman, Richard. “Identification and Correlation of Pitch-Sets.”  
> JMT 15, no. 1 and 2 (1971): 58-83.
> Clough, John. “Diatonic Interval Sets and Transformational  
> Structures.” PNM 18, no. 1&2 (1979): 461-482.
> Clough, John. “Pitch-Set Equivalence and Inclusion (A Comment on  
> Forte’s Theory of Set-Complexes).” JMT 9, no. 1 (1965): 163-71.
> Forte, Allen. “Sets and Non-Sets in Schoenberg’s Atonal Music.” PNM  
> 11, no. 2 (1972): 43-64.
> Forte, Allen. “The structure of atonal music: Practical aspects of  
> a computer-oriented research project.” In Musicology and the  
> Computer. Musicology 1966-2000: A Practical Program. Three  
> Symposia. New York: American Musicological Society, 1970.
> Hanson, Howard. Harmonic Materials of Modern Music: Resources of  
> the Tempered Scale. New York: Appleton-Century-Crofts, 1960.
> Lewin, David. “Forte’s interval vector, my interval function, and  
> Regener’s common-note function.” JMT 21, no. 2 (1977): 194-237.
> Lewin, David. Generalized Musical Intervals and Transformations.  
> New Haven, Conn.: Yale University, 1987.
> Lewin, David. “Klumpenhouwer networks and some isographies that  
> involve them.” Spectrum 12, no. 1 (1990): 83-120.
> Lewin, David. “A response to a response: On pcset relatedness.” PNM  
> 18 (1979): 498-502.
> Martino, Donald. “The source-set and its aggregate formations.” JMT  
> 5, no. 2 (1961): 224-73.
> Perle, George. Serial Composition and Atonality: An Introduction to  
> the Music of Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern. 3rd ed. Los Angeles,  
> California: University of California Press, 1972.
> Rogers, John. “Some properties of non-duplicating rotational  
> arrays.” PNM 7, no. 1 (1968): 80-102.
> Starr, Daniel, and Robert D. Morris. “A general theory of  
> combinatoriality and the aggregate.” PNM 16, no. 1 (1977): 3-35.
> Wintle, Christopher. “Milton Babbitt's Semi-Simple Variations.” PNM  
> 14, no. 2 and 15:1 (1976): 111-54.
>
>
>> geometry
>>
>
> Dmittri Tymoczko's "Geometry of Music" article in Sciene 313 pp  
> 72-74 (2006) and Guerino Mazzola's book "Die Geometrie der  
> Musik" (in an expanded English edition published under the title  
> 'Topos of Music').
>
> Hope that's something to get you started.
>

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 FILETIME=[A8547FA0:01C713CA]

i left this battle as well...
as musicians i keep concentrated to the production of live shows or 
other media that are not "digitalizable" instead of making records...
i started to keep cds in the car box and buy hard disk for mp3s... so 
that i can save space in the lounge
i'd remind as well, that in italy we pay around 1 euro of taxes (siae) 
for each cds... and this tax could be enough for a producer to just 
forget the idea of pressing cds, because digital sales are sooooo less 
expensive...  that's business :(
how many produrecers do still press tapes?

hugs
andrea


david.microsuoni ha scritto:
> dear ralph,
>
> i think it's a losing battle...now they will answer you with some philosophical sentence that all art should be free, and all those concepts they use to have their conscience clean.
>
> here in italy an ex minister of the past government even told on tv he thinks that filesharing it's legal!
> (Maroni -Lega)
>
> david.
>
>
>   
>> great... all this ripping and stealing info is really very helpful.
>> am i the only one still buying the original cd releases? i'm
>> not interested in getting it cheap or for free. i'm interested in
>> getting the original 2cd limited version and i already found a
>> place so thanks to those helpful links. all you others can go
>> and have some more fun downloading music for free...
>>     
>
>
>   

--
PEAM 2006 - 6,10 dec.
www.artificialia.com/peam2006
www.andreagabriele.it
www.pirandelo.org
www.artificialia.com

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dear ralph,

i think it's a losing battle...now they will answer you with some philosophical sentence that all art should be free, and all those concepts they use to have their conscience clean.

here in italy an ex minister of the past government even told on tv he thinks that filesharing it's legal!
(Maroni -Lega)

david.


>great... all this ripping and stealing info is really very helpful.
>am i the only one still buying the original cd releases? i'm
>not interested in getting it cheap or for free. i'm interested in
>getting the original 2cd limited version and i already found a
>place so thanks to those helpful links. all you others can go
>and have some more fun downloading music for free...

--Boundary_(ID_w+GzTnNPzf3Oi6iu40/L0g)--

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 08:55:19 -0600
From: Kyle Klipowicz <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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As I said in my first post, I recommend downloading music if you cannot find
a reasonably priced (i.e. < $20) copy to purchase.

I buy music all the time, either from an artist at an event directly, or
their website.  But if something in digital format is artificially rarefied
into a ridiculous price range, just download it.  The money would only go to
someone else if you buy it second hand anyway.

~Kyle

On 11/29/06, steinbrüchel <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
>
> great... all this ripping and stealing info is really very helpful.
> am i the only one still buying the original cd releases? i'm
> not interested in getting it cheap or for free. i'm interested in
> getting the original 2cd limited version and i already found a
> place so thanks to those helpful links. all you others can go
> and have some more fun downloading music for free...
>
> does anybody even care about the artists involved?
>
>
> Am 29.11.2006 12:55 Uhr schrieb "xxx@xxxxxxx.xx" unter <xxx@xxxxxxx.xx>:
>
> > you can find it easily on soulseek at the bitrate you prefer
> > eva
> >
> >
> > Original Message:
> > -----------------
> > From: steinbrüchel xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx
> > Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:55:16 +0100
> > To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
> >
> >
> > interesting, but i cannot imagine that this is officially licensed by
> > southern lord for this price. is this not important for you?
> >
> >
> > Am 29.11.2006 3:23 Uhr schrieb "Robert Arnold" unter <
> xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>:
> >
> >> You can download the album for 2 bucks from AllOfMP3:
> >>
> >
> http://music.allofmp3.com/r2/Sunn_0)/Altar_(With_Boris)/group_66770/album_2/
> > al
> >> bref_14/mcatalog.shtml
> >>
> >> AllOfMP3 is a great resource for downloading music. They're located
> >> in Russia, so their downloads are really cheap (important
> >> consideration for us po' folk). I've been using them for a couple of
> >> years and have found them very reliable to deal with - no problem
> >> with credit cards through their payment site.
> >>
> >> R.
> >>
> >>
> >>> At the risk of sounding like a jerk, try downloading it or finding
> > someone
> >>> with a copy who can rip it for you.  You can always buy it legit when
> > they
> >>> re-release it.  Or just toss 10-20 bucks to the  artists
> involved.  The
> > myth
> >>> of scarcity in this digital age should be abolished.
> >>>
> >>> ~Kyle
> >>>
>
> --
> http://www.synchron.ch .:.::.:.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>


-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
(())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
_____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 14:49:26 2006
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:49:09 -0500
From: aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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Yeah, i feel the same way.

Next time i am hungry i am going to rifle through my neighbors fridge 
because i want to eat, i just do not want to pay for it.

aLEKs







On Nov 29, 2006, at 8:19 AM, steinbrüchel wrote:

> great... all this ripping and stealing info is really very helpful.
> am i the only one still buying the original cd releases? i'm
> not interested in getting it cheap or for free. i'm interested in
> getting the original 2cd limited version and i already found a
> place so thanks to those helpful links. all you others can go
> and have some more fun downloading music for free...
>
> does anybody even care about the artists involved?
>
>
> Am 29.11.2006 12:55 Uhr schrieb "xxx@xxxxxxx.xx" unter 
> <xxx@xxxxxxx.xx>:
>


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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 13:21:30 2006
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From: steinbr=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?=chel <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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great... all this ripping and stealing info is really very helpful.
am i the only one still buying the original cd releases? i'm
not interested in getting it cheap or for free. i'm interested in
getting the original 2cd limited version and i already found a
place so thanks to those helpful links. all you others can go
and have some more fun downloading music for free...

does anybody even care about the artists involved?


Am 29.11.2006 12:55 Uhr schrieb "xxx@xxxxxxx.xx" unter <xxx@xxxxxxx.xx>:

> you can find it easily on soulseek at the bitrate you prefer
> eva
> 
> 
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: steinbrüchel xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx
> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:55:16 +0100
> To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
> 
> 
> interesting, but i cannot imagine that this is officially licensed by
> southern lord for this price. is this not important for you?
> 
> 
> Am 29.11.2006 3:23 Uhr schrieb "Robert Arnold" unter <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>:
> 
>> You can download the album for 2 bucks from AllOfMP3:
>> 
> http://music.allofmp3.com/r2/Sunn_0)/Altar_(With_Boris)/group_66770/album_2/
> al
>> bref_14/mcatalog.shtml
>> 
>> AllOfMP3 is a great resource for downloading music. They're located
>> in Russia, so their downloads are really cheap (important
>> consideration for us po' folk). I've been using them for a couple of
>> years and have found them very reliable to deal with - no problem
>> with credit cards through their payment site.
>> 
>> R.
>> 
>> 
>>> At the risk of sounding like a jerk, try downloading it or finding
> someone
>>> with a copy who can rip it for you.  You can always buy it legit when
> they
>>> re-release it.  Or just toss 10-20 bucks to the  artists involved.  The
> myth
>>> of scarcity in this digital age should be abolished.
>>> 
>>> ~Kyle
>>> 

-- 
http://www.synchron.ch .:.::.:.



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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 11:55:28 2006
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you can find it easily on soulseek at the bitrate you prefer
eva


Original Message:
-----------------
From: steinbrüchel xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:55:16 +0100
To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration


interesting, but i cannot imagine that this is officially licensed by
southern lord for this price. is this not important for you?


Am 29.11.2006 3:23 Uhr schrieb "Robert Arnold" unter <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>:

> You can download the album for 2 bucks from AllOfMP3:
>
http://music.allofmp3.com/r2/Sunn_0)/Altar_(With_Boris)/group_66770/album_2/
al
> bref_14/mcatalog.shtml
> 
> AllOfMP3 is a great resource for downloading music. They're located
> in Russia, so their downloads are really cheap (important
> consideration for us po' folk). I've been using them for a couple of
> years and have found them very reliable to deal with - no problem
> with credit cards through their payment site.
> 
> R.
> 
> 
>> At the risk of sounding like a jerk, try downloading it or finding
someone
>> with a copy who can rip it for you.  You can always buy it legit when
they
>> re-release it.  Or just toss 10-20 bucks to the  artists involved.  The
myth
>> of scarcity in this digital age should be abolished.
>> 
>> ~Kyle
>> 

-- 
http://www.synchron.ch .:.::.:.



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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 08:56:43 2006
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interesting, but i cannot imagine that this is officially licensed by
southern lord for this price. is this not important for you?


Am 29.11.2006 3:23 Uhr schrieb "Robert Arnold" unter <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>:

> You can download the album for 2 bucks from AllOfMP3:
> http://music.allofmp3.com/r2/Sunn_0)/Altar_(With_Boris)/group_66770/album_2/al
> bref_14/mcatalog.shtml
> 
> AllOfMP3 is a great resource for downloading music. They're located
> in Russia, so their downloads are really cheap (important
> consideration for us po' folk). I've been using them for a couple of
> years and have found them very reliable to deal with - no problem
> with credit cards through their payment site.
> 
> R.
> 
> 
>> At the risk of sounding like a jerk, try downloading it or finding someone
>> with a copy who can rip it for you.  You can always buy it legit when they
>> re-release it.  Or just toss 10-20 bucks to the  artists involved.  The myth
>> of scarcity in this digital age should be abolished.
>> 
>> ~Kyle
>> 

-- 
http://www.synchron.ch .:.::.:.



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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 05:44:35 2006
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:48:44 +1100
From: Simon Hampson <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] "Discovering Electronic Music"
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Maaaannnn.. I can't believe this film is from 1983. It looks like a '50s US
sci-fi film.

Thanks for the link Rod.

Ciao,

Simon.


On 29/11/06 12:51 PM, "Rod Stasick" <xxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

>  From 1983 - with some ancient gear:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/qk8e5
> 
> 
> Rod



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And you thought mobile phone radiation was controversial!

Thanks for the link Kim.

Simon.

On 29/11/06 7:58 AM, "Kim Cascone" <xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:

> Body-wired headphones
> 
> Sony's Tokyo research lab has found a way to connect headphones to
> portable music and video players without the need for fiddly wiring.
> They simply feed an audio signal straight through the listener's body.
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/y88h33




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Beautiful!

~Kyle

On 11/28/06, Rod Stasick <xxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> From 1983 - with some ancient gear:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/qk8e5
>
>
> Rod
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Now playing: íróÊéq - âJǙǂÇÒÇæÇÁ
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> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>


-- 

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Yes, but from what I understand, none of this money that goes to Allofmp3
goes to the artists.  I consider that a greater theft than just trading good
tunes (since radio isn't doing its job nowadays).

~Kyle

On 11/28/06, Robert Arnold <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> You can download the album for 2 bucks from AllOfMP3:
>
> http://music.allofmp3.com/r2/Sunn_0)/Altar_(With_Boris)/group_66770/album_2/albref_14/mcatalog.shtml
>
> AllOfMP3 is a great resource for downloading music. They're located
> in Russia, so their downloads are really cheap (important
> consideration for us po' folk). I've been using them for a couple of
> years and have found them very reliable to deal with - no problem
> with credit cards through their payment site.
>
> R.
>
>
> >At the risk of sounding like a jerk, try downloading it or finding
> someone
> >with a copy who can rip it for you.  You can always buy it legit when
> they
> >re-release it.  Or just toss 10-20 bucks to the  artists involved.  The
> myth
> >of scarcity in this digital age should be abolished.
> >
> >~Kyle
> >
>
> --
>
>
>
> --
> Website: http://www.warbaby.com
> (Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
> Blog: http://raggedwings.blogspot.com/
> Nifty Stuff: http://www.cafepress.com/warbaby
> --
>
> "Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would
> permit us to be pirates."
>
>           - Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi
>
>


-- 

http://theradioproject.com
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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 02:24:05 2006
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You can download the album for 2 bucks from AllOfMP3: 
http://music.allofmp3.com/r2/Sunn_0)/Altar_(With_Boris)/group_66770/album_2/albref_14/mcatalog.shtml

AllOfMP3 is a great resource for downloading music. They're located 
in Russia, so their downloads are really cheap (important 
consideration for us po' folk). I've been using them for a couple of 
years and have found them very reliable to deal with - no problem 
with credit cards through their payment site.

R.


>At the risk of sounding like a jerk, try downloading it or finding someone
>with a copy who can rip it for you.  You can always buy it legit when they
>re-release it.  Or just toss 10-20 bucks to the  artists involved.  The myth
>of scarcity in this digital age should be abolished.
>
>~Kyle
>

-- 



--
Website: http://www.warbaby.com
(Currently undergoing an overhaul. Some pages and links may not work yet.)
Blog: http://raggedwings.blogspot.com/
Nifty Stuff: http://www.cafepress.com/warbaby
--

"Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would 
permit us to be pirates."

          - Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi
--Boundary_(ID_N3VmTOxMKIOATW+PCJ6xDA)--

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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:51:45 -0600
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 From 1983 - with some ancient gear:

http://tinyurl.com/qk8e5


Rod






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From ???@??? Wed Nov 29 01:27:38 2006
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Just to add to the wonderful frenzy of collectors and limiteds and  
whatnot, there is a Japanese version that has just been released by  
the Boris folks and can be had through their distribution website here

http://inoxia-rec.com/

If you like vinyl, (and I do) just be patient as SouthernLord is  
releasing the album on a 3 lp set sometime soon.

Take care,
Michael

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Subject: [microsound] Body-wired headphones
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Body-wired headphones

Sony's Tokyo research lab has found a way to connect headphones to  
portable music and video players without the need for fiddly wiring.  
They simply feed an audio signal straight through the listener's body.

Existing wireless headphones use Bluetooth radio, but this means  
pairing two devices beforehand and is prone to interference from  
other equipment. Another approach – infra-red – relies on line-of- 
sight, which is rarely practical.

The new system uses the listener's body as a capacitor that carries a  
tiny electrostatic charge. A music or video player sends a  
fluctuating signal to a conductive cloth pad – such as a wrist band –  
and this slightly charges the wearer's body. A pair of conductive ear  
pads in the headphones pick-up the signal and rapidly convert it back  
into sound.

Just a few millionths of an amp flow through the wearer's body, so  
there should be no nasty tingling effect. To convert the small charge  
into good quality audio, Sony uses a high frequency signal, which is  
digitally switched to carry data at 48 kilobytes per second. This is  
enough to deliver good quality, body-rocking stereo, the company says.

Read the full body-wired headphones patent application.

http://tinyurl.com/y88h33
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From ???@??? Tue Nov 28 20:54:38 2006
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I have a copy of this cd and its AMAZING!!!
sunn o))) for me are like a modern day version of early swans...
yummy!!!




On Tue, 28 Nov 2006, steinbrüchel wrote:

> hi list
> of the album "altar" by boris + sunn o))) there was a 2cd version available
> from southern lord (but now unfortunately sold out). does anybody maybe have
> a copy of this for sale or know any other place i could order it online?
>
> thanx for any help.
> cheers to all, ralph.
>
>
> -- 
>
> .:.: http://www.synchron.ch :.:.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>

============================
www.phoniq.net
releases available on:
www.noisefactoryrecords.com
publication:
www.vagueterrain.net
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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:40:58 -0600
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At the risk of sounding like a jerk, try downloading it or finding someone
with a copy who can rip it for you.  You can always buy it legit when they
re-release it.  Or just toss 10-20 bucks to the  artists involved.  The myth
of scarcity in this digital age should be abolished.

~Kyle

On 11/28/06, steinbrüchel <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:
>
> Am 28.11.2006 21:03 Uhr schrieb "aleks vasic" unter
> <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>:
>
> > No, but to further frustrate you, its great!
>
> thank you, how kind of you... ;)
>
> > There will be another run on southern lord i believe.  Maybe ebay or
> > Lala.com
>
> thx, i'll check it out...
>
> > Cheers
> >
> > aLEKs
> >
> >
> > On Nov 28, 2006, at 3:01 PM, steinbrüchel wrote:
> >
> >> hi list
> >> of the album "altar" by boris + sunn o))) there was a 2cd version
> >> available
> >> from southern lord (but now unfortunately sold out). does anybody
> >> maybe have
> >> a copy of this for sale or know any other place i could order it
> >> online?
> >>
> >> thanx for any help.
> >> cheers to all, ralph.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> .:.: http://www.synchron.ch :.:.
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> >> website: http://www.microsound.org
> >>
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> >
>
> --
>
> .:.: http://www.synchron.ch :.:.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>
>


-- 

http://theradioproject.com
http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com

(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
(())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
_____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
--Boundary_(ID_fBbv36a7MGL5pibA8IPLiQ)--

From ???@??? Tue Nov 28 20:17:22 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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Am 28.11.2006 21:03 Uhr schrieb "aleks vasic" unter
<xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>:

> No, but to further frustrate you, its great!

thank you, how kind of you... ;)
 
> There will be another run on southern lord i believe.  Maybe ebay or
> Lala.com

thx, i'll check it out...
 
> Cheers
> 
> aLEKs
>
>
> On Nov 28, 2006, at 3:01 PM, steinbrüchel wrote:
> 
>> hi list
>> of the album "altar" by boris + sunn o))) there was a 2cd version
>> available
>> from southern lord (but now unfortunately sold out). does anybody
>> maybe have
>> a copy of this for sale or know any other place i could order it
>> online?
>> 
>> thanx for any help.
>> cheers to all, ralph.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> .:.: http://www.synchron.ch :.:.
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> website: http://www.microsound.org
>> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> website: http://www.microsound.org
> 

-- 

.:.: http://www.synchron.ch :.:.


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From ???@??? Tue Nov 28 20:11:03 2006
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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:14:35 -0500
From: kathy kennedy <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] looking for compositions
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Hi,
this is a general call out for anyone interested in creating a new  
work out of an existing soundtrack.

THE HUM REMIX CD
In the spirit of collaboration that is at the basis of the Hum project,
a compilation CD of Hum remixes will be produced in April 07.
Participants are invited to create a remix of any style using this
sonic material in any way in their composition.
Proceeds will go toward the production of  The Main Hum event of June  
07. Any additional revenues will be divided evenly among composers,  
and copyright will remain their sole property.
Please see http://www.kathykennedy.ca/news/news.html for more details.
Kathy Kennedy


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From ???@??? Tue Nov 28 20:04:13 2006
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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:03:55 -0500
From: aleks vasic <xxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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No, but to further frustrate you, its great!

There will be another run on southern lord i believe.  Maybe ebay or 
Lala.com

Cheers

aLEKs


On Nov 28, 2006, at 3:01 PM, steinbrüchel wrote:

> hi list
> of the album "altar" by boris + sunn o))) there was a 2cd version 
> available
> from southern lord (but now unfortunately sold out). does anybody 
> maybe have
> a copy of this for sale or know any other place i could order it 
> online?
>
> thanx for any help.
> cheers to all, ralph.
>
>
> -- 
>
> .:.: http://www.synchron.ch :.:.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
>


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From ???@??? Tue Nov 28 20:00:31 2006
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From: steinbr=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?=chel <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] boris + sunn o))) collaboration
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hi list
of the album "altar" by boris + sunn o))) there was a 2cd version available
from southern lord (but now unfortunately sold out). does anybody maybe have
a copy of this for sale or know any other place i could order it online?

thanx for any help.
cheers to all, ralph.


-- 

..:.: http://www.synchron.ch :.:.


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Hahaha!  Man, that is some vengeful prose!  I can understand some of the
concerns listed, but it comes off a bit like Valerie Solanis' "S.C.U.M.
Manifesto,"  or something Netotchka Nezvanova would write.

~Kyle

On 11/27/06, Björn Eriksson <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> you can follow the link at microsound.org to the wiki and then go to
> texts:
>
> http://www.interdisciplina.org/microsound-wiki/index.php/The_only_good_DJ_is_a_dead_DJ
> or if this is broken use this tiny url:
> http://tinyurl.com/yzsba4
>
> While you're at it, please add more stuff to the Wiki. It is up and
> working. It is a useful place to put interesting stuff at.
>
> Yours,
> Björn Eriksson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mika Martini" <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:55 PM
> Subject: [microsound] the only good dj is a dead dj link?
>
>
> > Hi!
> >  someone have a correct link for the
> >  mike ibañez' essay: "the only good dj is a dead dj" [old link:
> http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/IbanezEssay ]
> >
> >  thnks! mika.
> >
> >
> >      + + + + + + + + + + + + +
> > [M!M] [CHILE]
> >  [www.pueblonuevo.cl]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Correo Yahoo!
> > Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis!
> > Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/
>



-- 

http://theradioproject.com
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From ???@??? Mon Nov 27 19:07:10 2006
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Hello,
you can follow the link at microsound.org to the wiki and then go to texts:
http://www.interdisciplina.org/microsound-wiki/index.php/The_only_good_DJ_is_a_dead_DJ
or if this is broken use this tiny url:
http://tinyurl.com/yzsba4

While you're at it, please add more stuff to the Wiki. It is up and working. It is a useful place to put interesting stuff at.

Yours,
Björn Eriksson

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mika Martini" <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
To: "microsound" <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:55 PM
Subject: [microsound] the only good dj is a dead dj link?


> Hi!
>  someone have a correct link for the
>  mike ibañez' essay: "the only good dj is a dead dj" [old link: http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/IbanezEssay ]
>   
>  thnks! mika.
> 
> 
>      + + + + + + + + + + + + + 
> [M!M] [CHILE]
>  [www.pueblonuevo.cl]
>   
>   
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Correo Yahoo!
> Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! 
> Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/
--Boundary_(ID_mhVz8eKpw0S4ciX+KBWdKw)--

From ???@??? Mon Nov 27 18:55:31 2006
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Hi!
  someone have a correct link for the
  mike ibañez' essay: "the only good dj is a dead dj" [old link: http://microsound.nexthop.net/bin/view.cgi/Main/IbanezEssay ]
   
  thnks! mika.


      + + + + + + + + + + + + + 
[M!M] [CHILE]
  [www.pueblonuevo.cl]
   
   
   




 __________________________________________________
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! 
Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ 
--Boundary_(ID_hVspiAdYbO9Pjms/xrE1GA)--

From ???@??? Mon Nov 27 05:46:32 2006
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Subject: [microsound] RIP: Malachi Ritscher
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I had no idea this had happened until today...did anyone on the list  
know him personally?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM. 
20061126.wsuicc1126/BNStory/International/home
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From ???@??? Fri Nov 24 11:32:09 2006
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Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:31:56 +0100
From: xxxxxx@xx-xxxxxxx.xx
Subject: [microsound] IanniX 0.635b online
To: "xxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx" <xxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>,
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Hi

IanniX 0.635b is now online in several versions:

- as a WinXP .exe, here:
http://downloads.sourceforge.net/iannix/IanniX-0.635b-WinXP-bin.rar?use_mirror=osdn

- as a MacOSX Universal Binary, here:
http://downloads.sourceforge.net/iannix/IanniX-0.635b-OSX.tgz?use_mirror=osdn

- as a GNU/Linux binary, here:
http://downloads.sourceforge.net/iannix/IanniX-O.635b-Linux-bin.tgz?use_mirror=osdn

- as a source file, here:
http://downloads.sourceforge.net/iannix/IanniX-0.635b-Linux-SRC.tgz?use_mirror=osdn


As usual, please report us any bug you meet in your use of IanniX.


The IanniX Team.

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From ???@??? Fri Nov 24 05:53:03 2006
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From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] anyone know any links to online speech synthesizers?
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like this one: http://public.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php

this one is amazing but i'm wondering what else is out there in  
cyberspace.

g.

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From: Philippe Petit <xxxxxxxx-xxxxx@xxxxxxx.xx>
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        Teardo
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Hello
Enjoying so much success and nice feedbacks with our page for Strings  
Of Consciousness I decided to open a Space for the label
feel free to visit, make friends...

http://www.myspace.com/biphoprec

We are very pleased to introduce you to our new record, a new step in  
sound for us who like to surprise our listeners, this time it takes  
us into a very nice contemporary music-like, poetic atmospheres :

Erik Friedlander and Teho Teardo : giorni rubati [bleep 34]
www.erikfriedlander.com
www.tehoteardo.com
inspired from pasolini's poetry, in 2004 Italian electronics composer  
Teho Teardo and New York cellist Erik Friedlander began a trans-  
Atlantic collaboration, exchanging ideas, creating and remixing each  
other's contributions. They discovered a rapport that superseded  
their different backgrounds.
The classically trained cellist now Downtown improviser and former  
electro punk now cutting edge film composer found they shared a drive  
to create emotionally charged, passionate music.
Friedlander has backed John Zorn, Laurie Anderson and Courtney Love.  
New York's Erik Friedlander is a unique cellist whose work blurs  
genre borders. He is a composer and an improviser, a classical  
musician and a jazzbo. The LA Times put it best when they wrote,  
"Friedlander's performance clearly positions him as the first  
potential star performer on his instrument."
Teho has started the bands Meathead, MATERA (with Mick Harris),  
OPERATOR (with Scott Mccloud/GVSB) and MODERN INSTITUTE


Feel free to order direct from us and receive freebies…
www.bip-hop.com

or via our distribution outlets...
Please note that USA is now being covered by Carrot Top outta Chicago
http://ctdltd.com/

next in line the long awaited second album by :

Spaceheads & Max Eastley : a very long way from anywhere else [bleep 35]
http://www.spaceheads.co.uk/
http://www.capefarewell.com/content/art-eastley.php

hav a nice day
ip



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<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hello</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Enjoying so much success and nice feedbacks with our page for Strings Of Consciousness I decided to open a Space for the label </DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">feel free to visit, make friends...</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://www.myspace.com/biphoprec">http://www.myspace.com/biphoprec</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">We are very pleased to introduce you to our new record, a new step in sound for us who like to surprise our listeners, this time it takes us into a very nice contemporary music-like, poetic atmospheres : </DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Erik Friedlander and Teho Teardo : giorni rubati [bleep 34]</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">www.erikfriedlander.com</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">www.tehoteardo.com</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="American Typewriter">inspired from pasolini's poetry, i</FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">n 2004 Italian electronics composer Teho Teardo and New York cellist Erik Friedlander began a trans- Atlantic collaboration, exchanging ideas, creating and remixing each other's contributions. They discovered a rapport that superseded their different backgrounds.</FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times"> </FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">The classically trained cellist now Downtown improviser and former electro punk now cutting edge film composer found they shared a drive to create emotionally charged, passionate music.</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Friedlander has backed John Zorn, Laurie Anderson and Courtney Love. New York's Erik Friedlander is a unique cellist whose work blurs genre borders. He is a composer and an improviser, a classical musician and a jazzbo. The LA Times put it best when they wrote, "Friedlander's performance clearly positions him as the first potential star performer on his instrument."</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times">Teho has started the bands Meathead, MATERA (with Mick Harris), OPERATOR (with Scott Mccloud/GVSB) and MODERN INSTITUTE</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Feel free to order direct from us and receive freebies… </DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="American Typewriter">www.bip-hop.com</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="American Typewriter"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">or via our distribution outlets... </DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Please note that USA is now being covered by Carrot Top outta Chicago</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://ctdltd.com">http://ctdltd.com</A>/</DIV><DIV><DIV style="font-family: American Typewriter; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="American Typewriter"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-family: American Typewriter; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="American Typewriter">next in line the long awaited second album by :</FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-family: American Typewriter; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="American Typewriter"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-family: American Typewriter; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="American Typewriter"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times New Roman">Spaceheads & Max Eastley : a very long way from anywhere else </FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Times New Roman"><B>[bleep 35]</B></FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ; font-family: American Typewriter; "><A href="http://www.spaceheads.co.uk/">http://www.spaceheads.co.uk</A>/</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ; font-family: American Typewriter; "><A href="http://www.capefarewell.com/content/art-eastley.php">http://www.capefarewell.com/content/art-eastley.php</A></DIV><DIV style="font-family: American Typewriter; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="American Typewriter"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="American Typewriter">hav a nice day</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="American Typewriter">ip</FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From ???@??? Wed Nov 22 03:42:18 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics and
 dancing
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this is exactly the kind of stuff i did @ york in ethnomusicology...  
see also: paul theberge's 'any sound you can imagine' (i always loved  
that title)

http://www.amazon.com/Any-Sound-You-Can-Imagine/dp/0819563099

it's pretty good, although it does not really address any real world  
examples of EDM.

the amazon website sums it up pretty well:

"Recent innovations in musical instrument design are not simply a  
response to the needs of musicians, writes Paul Theberge; they also  
have become "a driving force with which musicians must contend." He  
argues that digital synthesizers, samplers, and sequencers in studio  
production and in the home have caused musicians to rely increasingly  
on manufacturers for both the instruments themselves as well as the  
very sounds and musical patterns that they use to make music.

Musical practices have thus become allied with a new type of consumer  
practice that is altogether different from earlier relationships  
between musicians and their instruments as a means of production.  
Theberge places these developments within a broad social and  
historical perspective that examines the development of the musical  
instrument industry, particularly the piano industry, the economic  
and cultural role of musicians' magazines and computer networks, and  
the fundamental relationships between musical concepts, styles, and  
technology."




On 21-Nov-06, at 7:57 PM, michael trommer wrote:

> You might find this interesting...a friend of mine is involved and  
> we argue
> about it all the time:
>
> http://www.wavedna.com/
>
> Sounds like the type of analysis you're interested in, only much more
> extreme.
>
> (I find it kind of evil/scary, personally)
>

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From ???@??? Wed Nov 22 00:58:05 2006
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 dancing
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You might find this interesting...a friend of mine is involved and we argue
about it all the time:

http://www.wavedna.com/

Sounds like the type of analysis you're interested in, only much more
extreme.

(I find it kind of evil/scary, personally)


On 11/21/06 1:18 AM, "Damian Stewart" <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> David Powers wrote:
>> The problem is your assumption that grooves are universal ... Who
>> exactly gets to judge what makes a good groove? How do you know
>> everyone would agree on this?
> 
> I don't think everyone would agree about what some 'universal' good groove
> is, not at all. However I do think that within within a particular musical
> genre or subgenre there is an agreement about what a good groove sounds
> like - if you play a song from a particular genre of groove-based music to
> a group of people who all claim to like that particular genre, then I
> expect you'd find fairly consistent agreement amongst those people as to
> whether that particular groove was 'good' or 'bad' or whatever.
> 
> Moreover, speaking of my own criteria for deciding whether a groove is
> 'good' or not, I believe that groove makes itself apparent in much too raw
> and physical a way to be culturally determined. If it makes me feel like
> dancing, then it makes me feel like dancing; I don't believe that that
> aspect of 'grooviness' is culturally determined.
> 
> In fact this 'dancing' aspect tends to heighten my belief in a mathematical
> basis for groove; when I'm dancing and I slip into the
> staying-out-all-night mode it's largely because the DJ is playing music
> which has rhythmical patterns that resonate with particular kinds of muscle
> movement. Groove-based dancing to me is all based on the circular movement
> of parts of my body; it's about synchronising body motion with musical
> motion in ways that make it feel effortless. To me, that implies a strong
> kinetic basis for groove, which itself implies a mathematical basis.
> 
> It is my belief that these kinetic relationships hold for all sufficiently
> 'groovy' grooves. They won't have /the same/ relationships of course, and
> the relationships need to be flexible enough that all sufficiently 'groovy'
> grooves, as judged by a cross-section of listeners, are included.



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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 23:41:04 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics?
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On 11/21/06, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> I think we're kind of saying the same thing, which I've suspected for a
> while ;-) we just have different ideas about the repercussions, or perhaps
> the underlying truth, or something.
>
> What you're talking about is part of my idea though - what happens when you
> take away the need for a compressor and just programme in the same sorts of
> velocities directly?

Well, that would require some program that hasn't yet been invented!
Feel free to try though...

However, my other point is that, while I'm sure you could analyze a
set of examples from a given genre and find mathematical patterns, I
highly doubt you could correlate the patterns with the perception of
an afficienado in that genre, about whether a particular beat was good
or bad.

You don't even know, to what extent people agree on good or bad! You
can't advance your hypothesis, until you test how much subjective
variation there is in people's perceptions of grooves, and especially
things like cross-cultural variation.

All this sounds like a research career for a cognitive scientist, not
a musician, as far as I'm concerned. I already KNOW how to make a
groove that gets peoople jacking, I'll let other people sit around
testing and researching ... ;)

~David

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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 23:26:13 2006
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Kyle Klipowicz wrote:

> I remember reading (but not where I read it) that a lot of Hip-Hop 
> producers
> will create groovy beats by tapping the bassline directly into the 
> sequencer
> using an MPC pad.  This supports how I (and a great deal of others) feel

Ah yes they were tapping, but with the quantize function on, or off? ;-)

I find when I perform directly into the sequencer like this, I can make it 
feel 'groovier' over multiple repetitions of the very same loop (which is 
what I'm interested in) by tweaking the values toward some ideal that I 
would've been 'feeling' when I performed it. It remains my belief that said 
ideal has a mathematical basis.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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David Powers wrote:

> Well, but this is my point: this IS precisely how many (probably most)
> techno producers do use compression. When I build a bassline I
> consider the result of how the kick and bass will compress together -
> it's NOT the same rhythm/groove without the compression. Likewise,
> sometimes after doing a test mastering, I have to go back and change a
> velocity or timing in a high pitched rhythm, or the characteristic of
> the sound itself, because of something that occurs happens to the
> rhythm after compression, which I was not aware of before hand...

I think we're kind of saying the same thing, which I've suspected for a 
while ;-) we just have different ideas about the repercussions, or perhaps 
the underlying truth, or something.

What you're talking about is part of my idea though - what happens when you 
take away the need for a compressor and just programme in the same sorts of 
velocities directly? A compressor is following a mathematical algorithm. 
It's guided by a musician, sure, but it's still the maths helping it to 
feel groovy, to some extent. My interest is in determining what kind of 
input to send the compressor to make it give a groover effect on the 
output. I've experimented a little with passing the output of a drum 
machine through a sine-based tremolo that is perfectly in phase with the 
beat, and that can lend some interesting effects, but the sine really needs 
to be wonky in interesting ways, and it's this wonky that I'm trying to find.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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On 11/21/06, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> Unless you're using excessive compression to make particular
> things duck using side chains (cf Rhythm & Sound/Basic Channel), but that
> means using compression at the composition end to mechanically specify your
> velocities for you, rather than using it as the kind of compression
> normally associated with mastering.

Well, but this is my point: this IS precisely how many (probably most)
techno producers do use compression. When I build a bassline I
consider the result of how the kick and bass will compress together -
it's NOT the same rhythm/groove without the compression. Likewise,
sometimes after doing a test mastering, I have to go back and change a
velocity or timing in a high pitched rhythm, or the characteristic of
the sound itself, because of something that occurs happens to the
rhythm after compression, which I was not aware of before hand...

In techno/mnml/dnb/idm etc. it's no longer possible to distinguish
entirely between composition and production/engineering anymore.
Moreover, the whole (post-compression) is indeed different than the
sum of the individual parts. And that means you have a problem for the
analysis you propose, because it's much harder to quantify a
finished/compressed beat that combines many sounds into a single
entity, than it is to analyze a set of individual elements that might
make up such a beat. So I'm basically saying, in the style of rhythmic
music I work in most often, an analytic process of breaking the whole
into seperate parts is not going to work.

Maybe some kind of other cognitive/gestural approach might work better.

To address your initial idea though, if you WERE going to stick to
analysis, I'd suggest an approach that deals with some kinds of
analysis of frequency bands within mastered beats (maybe stuff you
could do with bonk~ and fiddle~ in pd)...

~David

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Bill Jarboe wrote:

> I was listening to si-cut.db (probably voluptuous midnight original , 
> not the stephan m. remix) and thinking of groove as iteration of an 
> event , then another iteration when it begs for reexamination ,

In one of David Toop's books he talks about a piece by Edgar Varese which
is a three minute long composition for piano long but which bears the
performance instruction "Play 349 times" or something. It was performed in
its entirety once by a group of performers that included John Cage from
memory, working in shifts over a long weekend. Apparently when listening to
it, each time through the piece 'felt' different, as you could feel the
memory of the music through itself.

> i exist i exist i exist i exist.

Messing with time by constantly redefining a temporal orientation point.

> imagine an individual on a dance floor wallowing in infinitude with
> enough boundaries to keep it friendly.

Let yourself fall into it and time ceases to have meaning.

> I've also thought of backbeat as a completely unrelated sound or feeling
>  , when you know the one is going to come back around and you comment or
>  accomplish something in the meantime.

Yeah, I know that feeling.. oh magical music.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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> On
> the other hand, the Sutekh beat is hot, it bangs, I'd play that one as
> a DJ.

that sutekh record is one of my most favourite things ever. everyone  
go buy incest now:)

http://damian.fusion.net.nz/frey/nice-loops/sutekh-incest-06.mp3

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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 22:43:00 2006
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  Hi Damian (and others),


    I was listening to si-cut.db (probably voluptuous midnight original 
, not the stephan m. remix) and thinking of groove as iteration of an 
event , then another iteration when it begs for reexamination , 
essentially the same iteration which is different from reiteration of 
that event. In the case of the benford tune , also some Kit Clayton , 
Run-D.M.C. It's Not Funny (from King of Rock) the event is perhaps to 
invite the observation not that it exists , more the observation i 
exist i exist i exist i exist. Any of the tunes of which I am thinking 
might seem uninteresting on the surface , yet they have their subtle 
magic. I imagine an individual on a dance floor wallowing in infinitude 
with enough boundaries to keep it friendly.

  I've also thought of backbeat as a completely unrelated sound or 
feeling , when you know the one is going to come back around and you 
comment or accomplish something in the meantime.


                                                                  -b



On Nov 20, 2006, at 3:31 PM, Damian Stewart wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Does anyone know of any research into rhythm perception which talks 
> about possible heuristics for determining whether a 1/2/4-bar rhythmic 
> pattern in 4/4 has a 'good' 'groove' or not?
>
> I know from my own composition efforts with looping rhythmic material 
> (read 'electronic dance music') that, during the construction of a 
> 'groove' in 4/4 time, adding particular sounds to particular places in 
> a pattern can make it 'groovier', while adding the same sounds to 
> other places in the pattern can make it distinctly less 'groovy'. By 
> the same token, removing a particular sound that is 'getting in the 
> way of the groove' can vastly increase the 'grooviness' of the 
> pattern. (Sorry about the scare quotes, I don't know any other 
> language that would convey what I mean effectively.)
>
> Having done this for about four years now I've reached a point of 
> skill where I can do this mostly intuitively; ie, I can listen to a 
> 'groove' and tell in my mind (or by beatboxing with my mouth) what 
> sounds to add, and where to add them, to make it 'groovier'. The 
> development of this intuitive skill has led me to believe that my 
> brain is somehow hooking into the maths of the pattern, that said 
> additions work to enhance certain mathematical properties of the 
> pattern. I'm fairly certain that a lot of the 'organic' 'funkiness' of 
> a good funk band is paradoxically due to the performers being 
> metronomically precise with their rhythms and accents, and I believe 
> this mathematical basis could be extended further.
>
> So I'm looking for some research into the heuristics of 'groove', or 
> even just analysis along these lines. I'm well aware that such 
> heuristics may not even exist, but I'd like to believe otherwise :-)
>
> -- 
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
>
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed


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David Powers wrote:

> As far as velocities being an essential part of creating a good
> groove, well that's true. But neither is it mathematically
> quantifiable. I like FLStudio (yes some think it is a toy) because I
> can draw in velocity curves really quickly, and many times very
> contradictory sets of velocities will work. 

How do you know they're contradictory? Do you find you need to do some 
tweaking to make them the 'right kind' of contradictory? I know exactly 
what you mean, and it is my hunch that they appear contradictory but in 
fact they express the same thing, just in different ways; like maybe one is 
the derivative of the other, or the log of the other, or something. 
Datamining algorithms run over mathematical representations of beats would 
help uncover this, I think. Or demonstrate that it doesn't exist.

(It is also very easy to
> delay a particular beat, and I often have swing vs. straight 16ths at
> the same time, or 16ths with different swing, or swing that is drawn
> in by hand at points where it feels correct.)

I used to work with Ableton Live, in a very freeform way with a live band 
that I'd sample on the fly, and sometimes I'd end up writing a piece of 
music that was in 3/4 on a 4/4 grid at 1.5x the tempo Live thought it was 
running. Trying to manually marry a bunch of different swing feels into one 
timeline on top of this is a nightmare.. When it worked it made it feel 
more 'natural' but not necessarily groovier.

> And, following from this, you must especially consider things like the
> actual mix and the compression on the mix, which have a HUGE effect on
> the accents and psychoacoustic effect, but are quite hard to quantify
> and aren't usually considered part of the composition of the groove
> per se. All this stuff goes into making a good groove.

Yeah, I agree with you that compression and mixing plays a big part in 
adding the final touches to a groove; but a good groove sounds like a good 
groove regardless of how it's compressed or produced. Mixing and 
compression can only bring out its goodness, they can't create goodness 
from nowhere. Unless you're using excessive compression to make particular 
things duck using side chains (cf Rhythm & Sound/Basic Channel), but that 
means using compression at the composition end to mechanically specify your 
velocities for you, rather than using it as the kind of compression 
normally associated with mastering.

This idea of groove still allows Fela Kuti to work, too. You can get any 
disparate collection of musicians to play a Fela Kuti groove and, so long 
as the musicians know how to play their instruments, it will sound and feel 
like a Fela Kuti groove. Here you've got different mixing, compression, and 
mastering parameters being roughly equivalent to different sets of musicians.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics?
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All I can say is, I don't think that first groove would be interesting
to the minimal or techno heads around here. The groove just isn't
"right" - this is an aquired cultural sensibility, not a mathematical
one. There's nothing "wrong" with it but it doesn't work for me. On
the other hand, the Sutekh beat is hot, it bangs, I'd play that one as
a DJ.

But I really don't see a mathematical way to prove that one is better
than the other. I trust my ears.

I'd posit that it's an acquired sensibility that comes from many
nights of making beats, mixing records and dancing with like minded
people to certain favored styles. And this sensibility is not
cross-cultural or universal - it wouldn't help me make the perfect dub
reggae beat.

What I will assert, is that whatever this mysterious quality that
makes a beat work for me in a particular context is, it's as much in
the production values, melodic content, compression, mixing, and
choice of sounds, as it is in the rhythm itself. The range of rhythms
isn't that broad, and essentially, it could mostly all be derived from
latin + disco rhythms.

~David

On 11/21/06, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> I think that's true, but it doesn't capture what I find interesting about
> the notion of groove.
>
> http://damian.fusion.net.nz/frey/nice-loops/richard-davis-breathe.mp3
>
> Yes, there is a continous 16th pulse in there, but what makes it groovy is
> the hihat + bassline with its sense of collection and rising between beats
> 1 and 3, the sense of sudden drop at beat 3, pause to recollect between
> beats 3 and 4 and then a little mini scramble upwards between beat 4 and
> beat 1 of the next cycle, to drop again at beat 1. The hihat skips 16ths
> over the first half, which lends energy to the bassline, but then when the
> bassline is lying prone collapsed over beats 3-4 the hihats bang out all
> 16ths as though providing a commentary on (or a roof over) the action.
>

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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 22:24:46 2006
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From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics?
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i'd argue that while it may be objectively the 'same groove every  
time round' it is doesn't sound that way cognitively.  repetition  
certainly changes the way things sound. one bar of james brown is not  
as funky as 4, 8 or 16 bars of the same thing.  as the brain grapples  
with pattern and repetition (which is basically what neural nets do  
best) different structures emerge that are subjective and unique to  
the listener, i think. that's what makes repetitive music so  
pleasurable and interesting, for me at least.

g.

On 21-Nov-06, at 4:26 PM, Damian Stewart wrote:

> Paul Sanders wrote:
>
>> In music a beat is not the equivalent of a mathematical point on a  
>> mathematical line. It has its own dimensions. No two beats are  
>> exactly alike.
>
> I'm currently reading "Unlocking the Groove" by Mark Butler, which  
> talks about electronic dance music (EDM) from a music-theoretical  
> perspective. One of the things it is pulling up is this idea that,  
> in EDM, because of the mechanical origin of the beats (sequencers  
> and drum machines) actually the beat does become the equivalent of  
> a mathematical point on a mathematical line. Yet, we still manage  
> to infer groove and 'funkiness' from a machine-generated beat that  
> is precisely the same every time round.
>
> -- 
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
>
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed
>
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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 22:10:27 2006
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From: Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics?
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David Powers wrote:

> To clarify, I mean you can break that 16th note pulse in many ways -
> but the final result of a dense groove is that the different parts
> blend into a single stream of 16ths. Then in more sparse sections,
> parts are stripped off to reveal some simpler sub-rhythm, which
> typically hits on between 2 and 4 points within the space of two
> beats.

I think that's true, but it doesn't capture what I find interesting about 
the notion of groove.

http://damian.fusion.net.nz/frey/nice-loops/richard-davis-breathe.mp3

Yes, there is a continous 16th pulse in there, but what makes it groovy is 
the hihat + bassline with its sense of collection and rising between beats 
1 and 3, the sense of sudden drop at beat 3, pause to recollect between 
beats 3 and 4 and then a little mini scramble upwards between beat 4 and 
beat 1 of the next cycle, to drop again at beat 1. The hihat skips 16ths 
over the first half, which lends energy to the bassline, but then when the 
bassline is lying prone collapsed over beats 3-4 the hihats bang out all 
16ths as though providing a commentary on (or a roof over) the action.

Then in the second iteration you have the addition of the open hi-hat which 
adds a sense of backward and forward, kind of a direction reversal every 
1/4 note.

The record crackle is window dressing that nevertheless adds a little 
'squeeze' to the 1, and the little synth lines serve to outline the larger 
formal structure. I see a bouncy ball in a gravity well with springy floor 
and walls, and the whole thing is kind of breathing over the space of a 
measure, expanding over beats 1-3 and collapsing over beats 3-1.

> But what makes the grooves interesting is the constant building -
> reducing - building  - reducing to various combinations over time, not
> really any particular rhythm. You'll hear most all combinations within
> an hour or two set, typically, as we are talking about a rather
> limited set of permutations.

I'm not so interested in whether a groove maintains interest over time, 
just whether it's 'groovy'. Over any given four bar stretch, a groove can 
be more or less 'groovy' in my books, and the larger scale interest doesn't 
have any influence here.

Long-term interest is my goal though. In theory, if I can write a 'groove' 
based on some kind of inversion of the heuristics (ie start from the 
numbers and work back to the groove), then vary the numbers continuously 
while holding the relationships between them constant, I can generate 
grooves that continuously change but stay groovy in the same kind of way. 
Or perhaps reveal some other strange musical relationship... I have no idea 
whether this would even work but the possibility is kind of exciting, don't 
you think?

> Some of what really makes great grooves in this style, for me, are not
> just rhythms, but actually timbral and pitch modulations that push and
> pull in certain ways.

Exactly! It's that pushing and pulling that I'm most interested in, because 
I believe that it hints at a kinematic basis for grooviness. There's a 
sense amongst the pushing and pulling of /balance/, and for me a groovy 
beat is one that pushes some kind of centre of balance around in a way that 
makes it almost topple over, but not quite. (The best I can think of is 
Sutekh, check his album Incest Live or this sample: 
http://damian.fusion.net.nz/frey/nice-loops/sutekh-incest-06.mp3 , it's an 
amazing example of how to build dynamically balanced but unstable beats.)

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 21:48:40 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics?
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On 11/21/06, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> I don't think it does. I think the reason it has this aura is because it's
> got a user interface that emphasises making changes to the velocity of hits
> over the duration of a loop/groove. Based on my own experiments the easiest
> way to make a machine beat feel 'groovy' is to alter the velocities of the
> notes. As a very simple example, if you've got a closed hihat sample
> banging out once every sixteenth note, to make it sound groovier (to make
> it sound like it is swinging, even) you alter the velocities of each hit in
> a way that emphasises the underlying meter. My dad's studying jazz piano at
> the moment and he was telling me about one of the things he discovered,
> namely that to make certain kinds of swinging piano line you time the notes
> like a metronome /but alter the velocities/.

First, let us keep jazz out of this. It's interesting, but I think it
clouds the issue here, as there isn't a right and wrong way to swing.
Swing changes from player to player, and from era to era. John
Coltrane was called "anti-jazz" for his rhythmic style at one point,
but what is rhythmic heresy and destruction of the groove from one
point of view, is innovation and expression from another view.

As far as velocities being an essential part of creating a good
groove, well that's true. But neither is it mathematically
quantifiable. I like FLStudio (yes some think it is a toy) because I
can draw in velocity curves really quickly, and many times very
contradictory sets of velocities will work. (It is also very easy to
delay a particular beat, and I often have swing vs. straight 16ths at
the same time, or 16ths with different swing, or swing that is drawn
in by hand at points where it feels correct.)

However, as far as velocity goes, when you consider a groove as a
whole, you must consider the psychoacoustic effect it creates when the
brain blends the parts together, not the individual parts in their
mathematical precision.

And, following from this, you must especially consider things like the
actual mix and the compression on the mix, which have a HUGE effect on
the accents and psychoacoustic effect, but are quite hard to quantify
and aren't usually considered part of the composition of the groove
per se. All this stuff goes into making a good groove.

~David

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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 21:41:08 2006
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From: Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics?
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Kyle Klipowicz wrote:

>> > I'd argue that what makes a beat groovy are the imperfections and
>> > slips in
>> > timing, not the accuracy of it.

That may indeed be one source of a sense of 'groove,' but it certainly 
doesn't explain the kind of groove you get in a hip-hop beat, or from 
really groovy techno, or from the Fat Freddy's Drop example that I cited 
earlier.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 21:38:56 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics?
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michael trommer wrote:
> Interesting that you'd mention the mpc...The whole mpc 'groove' factor is
> one that has driven tech boffins to the point of insanity...does it have an
> actual built-in grooviness that other drum machines/samplers lack ? Go to
> http://www.mpc-forums.com for the hilarity.

I don't think it does. I think the reason it has this aura is because it's 
got a user interface that emphasises making changes to the velocity of hits 
over the duration of a loop/groove. Based on my own experiments the easiest 
way to make a machine beat feel 'groovy' is to alter the velocities of the 
notes. As a very simple example, if you've got a closed hihat sample 
banging out once every sixteenth note, to make it sound groovier (to make 
it sound like it is swinging, even) you alter the velocities of each hit in 
a way that emphasises the underlying meter. My dad's studying jazz piano at 
the moment and he was telling me about one of the things he discovered, 
namely that to make certain kinds of swinging piano line you time the notes 
like a metronome /but alter the velocities/.

> I still think that an intellectual analysis of something that is so
> obviously based on pure feeling is missing the point...dancing about
> architecture and yadayada...

I suppose I believe that 'based on pure feeling' is another way of saying 
'instinctively mathematical'. Besides, the point in my case is to generate 
new music. If I can come up with some kind of understanding of groove from 
a different vantage point to 'pure feeling' then I can accentuate the 'pure 
feeling' aspect when I'm actually playing. I've watched more talented EDM 
producers than myself programme grooves in real time using an 808-style 
step-sequencer interface, and watching them I can tell on a 'pure feeling' 
basis that what they're doing has some kind of a logic to it.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
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http://www.frey.co.nz
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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 21:38:37 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics?
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Well, I mean look at this way. In minimal techno the most simple groove is:

kick on every quarter
hh on every off-eighth
clap on 2 and 4

What makes things groove, beyond this, is adding and subtracting from
what is essentially a continuous 16th note pulse. And that's really
it. I don't think you can break it down any farther.

To clarify, I mean you can break that 16th note pulse in many ways -
but the final result of a dense groove is that the different parts
blend into a single stream of 16ths. Then in more sparse sections,
parts are stripped off to reveal some simpler sub-rhythm, which
typically hits on between 2 and 4 points within the space of two
beats.

But what makes the grooves interesting is the constant building -
reducing - building  - reducing to various combinations over time, not
really any particular rhythm. You'll hear most all combinations within
an hour or two set, typically, as we are talking about a rather
limited set of permutations.

Some of what really makes great grooves in this style, for me, are not
just rhythms, but actually timbral and pitch modulations that push and
pull in certain ways.

~David

On 11/21/06, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
> Paul Sanders wrote:
>
> > In music a beat is not the equivalent of a mathematical point on a
> > mathematical line. It has its own dimensions. No two beats are exactly
> > alike.
>
> I'm currently reading "Unlocking the Groove" by Mark Butler, which talks
> about electronic dance music (EDM) from a music-theoretical perspective.
> One of the things it is pulling up is this idea that, in EDM, because of
> the mechanical origin of the beats (sequencers and drum machines) actually
> the beat does become the equivalent of a mathematical point on a
> mathematical line. Yet, we still manage to infer groove and 'funkiness'
> from a machine-generated beat that is precisely the same every time round.
>
> --
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
>
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed
>
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Paul Sanders wrote:

> In music a beat is not the equivalent of a mathematical point on a 
> mathematical line. It has its own dimensions. No two beats are exactly 
> alike.

I'm currently reading "Unlocking the Groove" by Mark Butler, which talks 
about electronic dance music (EDM) from a music-theoretical perspective. 
One of the things it is pulling up is this idea that, in EDM, because of 
the mechanical origin of the beats (sequencers and drum machines) actually 
the beat does become the equivalent of a mathematical point on a 
mathematical line. Yet, we still manage to infer groove and 'funkiness' 
from a machine-generated beat that is precisely the same every time round.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 21:25:09 2006
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        dancing
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e.mtra_em wrote:
> Hi i suggest you read ''Unlocking the GROOVE'' by Mark Butler(includ a cd)

Thanks, actually I am currently reading that book and you're right, it is 
excellent; reading it has been part the inspiration for my question :-)

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
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http://www.frey.co.nz
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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 15:38:35 2006
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Right, I agree.

When I called such artifacts of rhythm "imperfections," it wasn't a
degradation of the technique.  Rather, most "perfect" beat have such
"imperfect" structures inherent in them.

~Kyle

On 11/21/06, Paul Sanders <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
>
>
> On 21 Nov 2006, at 14:33, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
>
> > I'd argue that what makes a beat groovy are the imperfections and
> > slips in
> > timing, not the accuracy of it.
>
> I think that I'd take issue with the idea here that when a performer
> does not play on a mathematical time interval it should be regarded
> as an imperfection or slip. I see this the other way around, that a
> machine generated and regular time interval is not either the natural
> or desirable state of rhythm.
>
> We are funky beings. We groove. But it's the 21st century, so we try
> to make machines groove with us, as we want them to join us in our
> world. It's sooo 20th century to want to join the machines in their
> world.
>
> Paul
>
>
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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 14:45:12 2006
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On 21 Nov 2006, at 14:33, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:

> I'd argue that what makes a beat groovy are the imperfections and  
> slips in
> timing, not the accuracy of it.

I think that I'd take issue with the idea here that when a performer  
does not play on a mathematical time interval it should be regarded  
as an imperfection or slip. I see this the other way around, that a  
machine generated and regular time interval is not either the natural  
or desirable state of rhythm.

We are funky beings. We groove. But it's the 21st century, so we try  
to make machines groove with us, as we want them to join us in our  
world. It's sooo 20th century to want to join the machines in their  
world.

Paul


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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 14:34:12 2006
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I'd argue that what makes a beat groovy are the imperfections and slips in
timing, not the accuracy of it.

Things like hemiola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemiola), a sort of
rhythmic rubber band, and other techniques create tensions in the rhythm
against the straight mathematical grid existing in the Platonic universe.

When I program a beat using a grid, it can be intricate, but almost always
is cold sounding, due to the absolute precision of the grid.  When I instead
play the same beat on a drum pad or keyboard to input the notes, the tiny
(or HUGE) imperfections in my own timing cause a slight amount of
"grooviness."

I remember reading (but not where I read it) that a lot of Hip-Hop producers
will create groovy beats by tapping the bassline directly into the sequencer
using an MPC pad.  This supports how I (and a great deal of others) feel
about the matter.  Hell, even listen to early vs. later Kraftwerk.  At
first, they were playing all their instruments by hand and had an almost
jam-band Hippie feel to them.  After being turned on to the sequencer (was
it by Dolby?) they became the Man Machines that we all fondly remember them
to be.

In fact, lately I've been recording almost all of my sequences directly,
rather than programming them.  I enjoy the slop, especially when it's
computer sounds driven by human rhythmical imprecision.

~Kyle

On 11/21/06, Frank Barknecht <xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> Hallo,
> Paul Sanders hat gesagt: // Paul Sanders wrote:
>
> > On 21 Nov 2006, at 05:30, David Powers wrote:
> >
> > >Just think about the evolution of various styles of 20th century
> > >popular and urban musics - it's pretty easy to demonstrate that with
> > >each style there is a different idea of what a good groove is - and
> > >that's not even considering how much variation there might be within
> > >any given genre.
> >
> >
> > This lot are doing some interesting work:
> >
> > http://www.speech.kth.se/music/performance/performance_intro.html
>
> A seminal paper in this regard is Jeff A. Bilmes' "Techniques to
> Foster Drum Machine Expressivity" and his respective thesis "Timing is
> of the Essence" where he develops the concept of a Tatum.
>
> Start here and follow the references for lots of more:
> http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/bilmes93techniques.html
>
> Ciao
> --
> Frank Barknecht                 _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
>
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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 13:24:08 2006
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From: michael trommer <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics?
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Interesting that you'd mention the mpc...The whole mpc 'groove' factor is
one that has driven tech boffins to the point of insanity...does it have an
actual built-in grooviness that other drum machines/samplers lack ? Go to
http://www.mpc-forums.com for the hilarity.

I still think that an intellectual analysis of something that is so
obviously based on pure feeling is missing the point...dancing about
architecture and yadayada...

Good luck, though. 

On 11/21/06 12:22 AM, "Damian Stewart" <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> michael trommer wrote:
>> This is one of the most anti-groovy things I've ever read.
> 
> Why so?
> 
> I've developed this idea through extended listening to a local group called
> Fat Freddy's Drop, who consist of a DJ playing an Akai MPC2000, a vocalist,
> and between three and ten jamming musicians on guitar, horns, keys, etc.
> They play a kind of music best described as a cross between dub/reggae and
> hip-hop, and are almost universally considered to be both remarkably
> 'funky' and deeply 'organic'. The interesting thing about their music is
> that the MPC plays /all/ of the drums/percussion and /all/ of the bass;
> what's more in live gigs the music is sparse so that a lot of the time the
> act involves the MPC doing its thing while the rest of the band sway around
> on stage in front of their mics not actually making any noise. All the
> while there's a huge crowd out the front dancing the way a crowd would
> normally dance to big slow dub jams.
> 
> It all rests on the skill of the MPC programmer, of course; but before
> anyone starts waving their arms around about the mythical swing of the MPC,
> most often soid swing function is off, and the beats lie on a rigid metric
> grid either divides in duplets or in triplets. Here you've got a metrically
> precise, temporally static machine-generated groove that is both 'organic'
> and 'funky' in pretty much all of the ways that matter.
> 
> What's more the beats have a particularly polished and complete feel to
> them, as though they exist in some state of minimal near-perfection. The DJ
> doesn't really give interviews but the he comes across (through local
> stories) as a perfectionist, always trying to strip things back to the most
> minimal, the simplest and best way to articulate a groove. I don't know
> about you but this sounds very much to me like the kind of language any
> mathematician with a reasonably developed sense of aesthetics might use in
> pruning an algorithm... especially when you couple that with the kind of
> mathematics-based perfect repeatibility that digital tools like the MPC offer.



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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 10:43:39 2006
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Hallo,
Paul Sanders hat gesagt: // Paul Sanders wrote:

> On 21 Nov 2006, at 05:30, David Powers wrote:
> 
> >Just think about the evolution of various styles of 20th century
> >popular and urban musics - it's pretty easy to demonstrate that with
> >each style there is a different idea of what a good groove is - and
> >that's not even considering how much variation there might be within
> >any given genre.
> 
> 
> This lot are doing some interesting work:
> 
> http://www.speech.kth.se/music/performance/performance_intro.html

A seminal paper in this regard is Jeff A. Bilmes' "Techniques to
Foster Drum Machine Expressivity" and his respective thesis "Timing is
of the Essence" where he develops the concept of a Tatum.

Start here and follow the references for lots of more: 
http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/bilmes93techniques.html

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht                 _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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On 21 Nov 2006, at 05:30, David Powers wrote:

> Just think about the evolution of various styles of 20th century
> popular and urban musics - it's pretty easy to demonstrate that with
> each style there is a different idea of what a good groove is - and
> that's not even considering how much variation there might be within
> any given genre.


This lot are doing some interesting work:

http://www.speech.kth.se/music/performance/performance_intro.html

My own view is that groove/swing or whatever you want to call it - it  
being divergence from a mechanistic performance of a score - is not  
predictable but is capable of emulation to the degree that most  
listeners won't differentiate. I used to spend a long time trying to  
achieve a playing feel in MIDI sequencing, using timing, volume, and  
attack to create patterns around the beat. It was somewhat successful.

The ideas that interest me:

A score is a diagram - or an incomplete set of instructions - it does  
not play itself and what's not there is more important than what is.

An idea often happens in an abstract way, like a Platonic score,  
perhaps.

In music a beat is not the equivalent of a mathematical point on a  
mathematical line. It has its own dimensions. No two beats are  
exactly alike.

Cheerio

Paul


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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 09:47:58 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics and
        dancing
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Hi i suggest you read ''Unlocking the GROOVE'' by Mark Butler(includ a cd)(INDIANA UNIVERITY PRESS)...It's a wonderful book about this subject....You'll find it at AMAZON
I hope you enjoy it even it'is a deep essay
Ciao
Enrico (ITALY)






> David Powers wrote:
> > The problem is your assumption that grooves are universal ... Who
> > exactly gets to judge what makes a good groove? How do you know
> > everyone would agree on this?
>
> I don't think everyone would agree about what some 'universal' good groove
> is, not at all. However I do think that within within a particular musical
> genre or subgenre there is an agreement about what a good groove sounds
> like - if you play a song from a particular genre of groove-based music to
> a group of people who all claim to like that particular genre, then I
> expect you'd find fairly consistent agreement amongst those people as to
> whether that particular groove was 'good' or 'bad' or whatever.
>
> Moreover, speaking of my own criteria for deciding whether a groove is 
> 'good' or not, I believe that groove makes itself apparent in much too raw
> and physical a way to be culturally determined. If it makes me feel like
> dancing, then it makes me feel like dancing; I don't believe that that 
> aspect of 'grooviness' is culturally determined.
>
> In fact this 'dancing' aspect tends to heighten my belief in a mathematical
> basis for groove; when I'm dancing and I slip into the
> staying-out-all-night mode it's largely because the DJ is playing music
> which has rhythmical patterns that resonate with particular kinds of muscle
> movement. Groove-based dancing to me is all based on the circular movement
> of parts of my body; it's about synchronising body motion with musical 
> motion in ways that make it feel effortless. To me, that implies a strong
> kinetic basis for groove, which itself implies a mathematical basis.
>
> It is my belief that these kinetic relationships hold for all sufficiently
> 'groovy' grooves. They won't have /the same/ relationships of course, and
> the relationships need to be flexible enough that all sufficiently 'groovy'
> grooves, as judged by a cross-section of listeners, are included.
>
> --
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
>
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed
>
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> 


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vijay iyer's thesis was in this area, and references others (eg Bilmes) that
were/are also concerned with such matters. each html page is a chapter so
you can save the whole thing.
http://cnmat.cnmat.berkeley.edu/People/Vijay/


On 20/11/06, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone know of any research into rhythm perception which talks about
> possible heuristics for determining whether a 1/2/4-bar rhythmic pattern
> in
> 4/4 has a 'good' 'groove' or not?
>
> I know from my own composition efforts with looping rhythmic material
> (read
> 'electronic dance music') that, during the construction of a 'groove' in
> 4/4 time, adding particular sounds to particular places in a pattern can
> make it 'groovier', while adding the same sounds to other places in the
> pattern can make it distinctly less 'groovy'. By the same token, removing
> a
> particular sound that is 'getting in the way of the groove' can vastly
> increase the 'grooviness' of the pattern. (Sorry about the scare quotes, I
> don't know any other language that would convey what I mean effectively.)
>
> Having done this for about four years now I've reached a point of skill
> where I can do this mostly intuitively; ie, I can listen to a 'groove' and
> tell in my mind (or by beatboxing with my mouth) what sounds to add, and
> where to add them, to make it 'groovier'. The development of this
> intuitive
> skill has led me to believe that my brain is somehow hooking into the
> maths
> of the pattern, that said additions work to enhance certain mathematical
> properties of the pattern. I'm fairly certain that a lot of the 'organic'
> 'funkiness' of a good funk band is paradoxically due to the performers
> being metronomically precise with their rhythms and accents, and I believe
> this mathematical basis could be extended further.
>
> So I'm looking for some research into the heuristics of 'groove', or even
> just analysis along these lines. I'm well aware that such heuristics may
> not even exist, but I'd like to believe otherwise :-)
>
> --
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
>
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed
>
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From: Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics and
 dancing
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David Powers wrote:
> The problem is your assumption that grooves are universal ... Who
> exactly gets to judge what makes a good groove? How do you know
> everyone would agree on this?

I don't think everyone would agree about what some 'universal' good groove 
is, not at all. However I do think that within within a particular musical 
genre or subgenre there is an agreement about what a good groove sounds 
like - if you play a song from a particular genre of groove-based music to 
a group of people who all claim to like that particular genre, then I 
expect you'd find fairly consistent agreement amongst those people as to 
whether that particular groove was 'good' or 'bad' or whatever.

Moreover, speaking of my own criteria for deciding whether a groove is 
'good' or not, I believe that groove makes itself apparent in much too raw 
and physical a way to be culturally determined. If it makes me feel like 
dancing, then it makes me feel like dancing; I don't believe that that 
aspect of 'grooviness' is culturally determined.

In fact this 'dancing' aspect tends to heighten my belief in a mathematical 
basis for groove; when I'm dancing and I slip into the 
staying-out-all-night mode it's largely because the DJ is playing music 
which has rhythmical patterns that resonate with particular kinds of muscle 
movement. Groove-based dancing to me is all based on the circular movement 
of parts of my body; it's about synchronising body motion with musical 
motion in ways that make it feel effortless. To me, that implies a strong 
kinetic basis for groove, which itself implies a mathematical basis.

It is my belief that these kinetic relationships hold for all sufficiently 
'groovy' grooves. They won't have /the same/ relationships of course, and 
the relationships need to be flexible enough that all sufficiently 'groovy' 
grooves, as judged by a cross-section of listeners, are included.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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At 8:26 PM -0800 11/20/06, Kim Cascone wrote:
>someone was asking about portable recorders...this looks sort of 
>interesting -- and it's only $80USD:
>
>http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/GEMINI-IKEY
>
>the spec says it records 44/16 uncompressed

Interesting at $80-- probably more so than the iKeyPlus 
http://tinyurl.com/yxfhgn  with a PIP stereo mic input for $180USD. 
I'm surprised they weigh 2lbs. There are a few MZ-NH700 Hi-MD 
recorders around for those who can get by with a PC only unit: 
http://shewasinc.com/Sony%20MZ-N910.html  Rob D.


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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 05:30:44 2006
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From: David Powers <xxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics?
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The problem is your assumption that grooves are universal ... Who
exactly gets to judge what makes a good groove? How do you know
everyone would agree on this?

Just think about the evolution of various styles of 20th century
popular and urban musics - it's pretty easy to demonstrate that with
each style there is a different idea of what a good groove is - and
that's not even considering how much variation there might be within
any given genre.

~David

On 11/20/06, Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:
> michael trommer wrote:
> > This is one of the most anti-groovy things I've ever read.
>
> Why so?
>
> I've developed this idea through extended listening to a local group called
> Fat Freddy's Drop, who consist of a DJ playing an Akai MPC2000, a vocalist,
> and between three and ten jamming musicians on guitar, horns, keys, etc.
> They play a kind of music best described as a cross between dub/reggae and
> hip-hop, and are almost universally considered to be both remarkably
> 'funky' and deeply 'organic'. The interesting thing about their music is
> that the MPC plays /all/ of the drums/percussion and /all/ of the bass;
> what's more in live gigs the music is sparse so that a lot of the time the
> act involves the MPC doing its thing while the rest of the band sway around
> on stage in front of their mics not actually making any noise. All the
> while there's a huge crowd out the front dancing the way a crowd would
> normally dance to big slow dub jams.
>
> It all rests on the skill of the MPC programmer, of course; but before
> anyone starts waving their arms around about the mythical swing of the MPC,
> most often soid swing function is off, and the beats lie on a rigid metric
> grid either divides in duplets or in triplets. Here you've got a metrically
> precise, temporally static machine-generated groove that is both 'organic'
> and 'funky' in pretty much all of the ways that matter.
>
> What's more the beats have a particularly polished and complete feel to
> them, as though they exist in some state of minimal near-perfection. The DJ
> doesn't really give interviews but the he comes across (through local
> stories) as a perfectionist, always trying to strip things back to the most
> minimal, the simplest and best way to articulate a groove. I don't know
> about you but this sounds very much to me like the kind of language any
> mathematician with a reasonably developed sense of aesthetics might use in
> pruning an algorithm... especially when you couple that with the kind of
> mathematics-based perfect repeatibility that digital tools like the MPC offer.
>
> --
> Damian Stewart
> +64 27 305 4107
>
> f r e y
> live music with machines
> http://www.frey.co.nz
> http://www.myspace.com/freyed
>
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>

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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 05:23:42 2006
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michael trommer wrote:
> This is one of the most anti-groovy things I've ever read.

Why so?

I've developed this idea through extended listening to a local group called 
Fat Freddy's Drop, who consist of a DJ playing an Akai MPC2000, a vocalist, 
and between three and ten jamming musicians on guitar, horns, keys, etc. 
They play a kind of music best described as a cross between dub/reggae and 
hip-hop, and are almost universally considered to be both remarkably 
'funky' and deeply 'organic'. The interesting thing about their music is 
that the MPC plays /all/ of the drums/percussion and /all/ of the bass; 
what's more in live gigs the music is sparse so that a lot of the time the 
act involves the MPC doing its thing while the rest of the band sway around 
on stage in front of their mics not actually making any noise. All the 
while there's a huge crowd out the front dancing the way a crowd would 
normally dance to big slow dub jams.

It all rests on the skill of the MPC programmer, of course; but before 
anyone starts waving their arms around about the mythical swing of the MPC, 
most often soid swing function is off, and the beats lie on a rigid metric 
grid either divides in duplets or in triplets. Here you've got a metrically 
precise, temporally static machine-generated groove that is both 'organic' 
and 'funky' in pretty much all of the ways that matter.

What's more the beats have a particularly polished and complete feel to 
them, as though they exist in some state of minimal near-perfection. The DJ 
doesn't really give interviews but the he comes across (through local 
stories) as a perfectionist, always trying to strip things back to the most 
minimal, the simplest and best way to articulate a groove. I don't know 
about you but this sounds very much to me like the kind of language any 
mathematician with a reasonably developed sense of aesthetics might use in 
pruning an algorithm... especially when you couple that with the kind of 
mathematics-based perfect repeatibility that digital tools like the MPC offer.

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 04:31:02 2006
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From: michael trommer <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics?
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This is one of the most anti-groovy things I've ever read.


On 11/20/06 6:31 PM, "Damian Stewart" <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Does anyone know of any research into rhythm perception which talks about
> possible heuristics for determining whether a 1/2/4-bar rhythmic pattern in
> 4/4 has a 'good' 'groove' or not?
> 
> I know from my own composition efforts with looping rhythmic material (read
> 'electronic dance music') that, during the construction of a 'groove' in
> 4/4 time, adding particular sounds to particular places in a pattern can
> make it 'groovier', while adding the same sounds to other places in the
> pattern can make it distinctly less 'groovy'. By the same token, removing a
> particular sound that is 'getting in the way of the groove' can vastly
> increase the 'grooviness' of the pattern. (Sorry about the scare quotes, I
> don't know any other language that would convey what I mean effectively.)
> 
> Having done this for about four years now I've reached a point of skill
> where I can do this mostly intuitively; ie, I can listen to a 'groove' and
> tell in my mind (or by beatboxing with my mouth) what sounds to add, and
> where to add them, to make it 'groovier'. The development of this intuitive
> skill has led me to believe that my brain is somehow hooking into the maths
> of the pattern, that said additions work to enhance certain mathematical
> properties of the pattern. I'm fairly certain that a lot of the 'organic'
> 'funkiness' of a good funk band is paradoxically due to the performers
> being metronomically precise with their rhythms and accents, and I believe
> this mathematical basis could be extended further.
> 
> So I'm looking for some research into the heuristics of 'groove', or even
> just analysis along these lines. I'm well aware that such heuristics may
> not even exist, but I'd like to believe otherwise :-)



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From ???@??? Tue Nov 21 04:26:14 2006
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someone was asking about portable recorders...this looks sort of  
interesting -- and it's only $80USD:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/GEMINI-IKEY

the spec says it records 44/16 uncompressed
--Boundary_(ID_vfF+DtYAX0/g4KERwXA9bw)--

From ???@??? Mon Nov 20 23:31:53 2006
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From: Damian Stewart <xxxxxx@xxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] AI & rhythm perception - 'groove' heuristics?
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Hi,

Does anyone know of any research into rhythm perception which talks about 
possible heuristics for determining whether a 1/2/4-bar rhythmic pattern in 
4/4 has a 'good' 'groove' or not?

I know from my own composition efforts with looping rhythmic material (read 
'electronic dance music') that, during the construction of a 'groove' in 
4/4 time, adding particular sounds to particular places in a pattern can 
make it 'groovier', while adding the same sounds to other places in the 
pattern can make it distinctly less 'groovy'. By the same token, removing a 
particular sound that is 'getting in the way of the groove' can vastly 
increase the 'grooviness' of the pattern. (Sorry about the scare quotes, I 
don't know any other language that would convey what I mean effectively.)

Having done this for about four years now I've reached a point of skill 
where I can do this mostly intuitively; ie, I can listen to a 'groove' and 
tell in my mind (or by beatboxing with my mouth) what sounds to add, and 
where to add them, to make it 'groovier'. The development of this intuitive 
skill has led me to believe that my brain is somehow hooking into the maths 
of the pattern, that said additions work to enhance certain mathematical 
properties of the pattern. I'm fairly certain that a lot of the 'organic' 
'funkiness' of a good funk band is paradoxically due to the performers 
being metronomically precise with their rhythms and accents, and I believe 
this mathematical basis could be extended further.

So I'm looking for some research into the heuristics of 'groove', or even 
just analysis along these lines. I'm well aware that such heuristics may 
not even exist, but I'd like to believe otherwise :-)

-- 
Damian Stewart
+64 27 305 4107

f r e y
live music with machines
http://www.frey.co.nz
http://www.myspace.com/freyed

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From ???@??? Mon Nov 20 17:35:12 2006
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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:35:12 -0600
From: Rod Stasick <xxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] Matthias Loibner: tiny hurdy gurdy concert
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Great use of hurdy-gurdy with Bidule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZKQf-JIvRU

Rod


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From: Philippe Petit <xxxxxxxx-xxxxx@xxxxxxx.xx>
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hope u enjoyed a nice WE

feel free to come listen to our new song: "midnight moonbeams"

http://www.myspace.com/stringsofconsciousness


featuring the great vocals/poetry by Black Sifichi.

So the line up on that track is :

Black Sifichi (vocals)
Hervé Vincenti (guitar/keys)
Philippe Petit (theremin/laptop/turntables)
Raphaelle Rinaudo (harp)
Andy Diagram (trumpet / electronics)
Abdenor Natouri (double bass)
Hugh Hopper (clarinet)
Perceval Bellone (saxophone)


hope our midnight moonbeams will bring a smile to your ears and a  
nice colour to your skin
:-)




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<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">hope u enjoyed a nice WE</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">feel free to come listen to our new song: "midnight moonbeams"</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><A href="http://www.myspace.com/stringsofconsciousness">http://www.myspace.com/stringsofconsciousness</A><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">featuring the great vocals/poetry by Black Sifichi.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">So the line up on that track is :</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Black Sifichi (vocals)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hervé Vincenti (guitar/keys)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Philippe Petit (theremin/laptop/turntables)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Raphaelle Rinaudo (harp)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Andy Diagram (trumpet / electronics)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Abdenor Natouri (double bass)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hugh Hopper (clarinet)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Perceval Bellone (saxophone)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">hope our midnight moonbeams will bring a smile to your ears and a nice colour to your skin</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">:-)</DIV><DIV><DIV style=""><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="American Typewriter"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From ???@??? Sat Nov 18 13:02:33 2006
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Dear Microsounders,

hello. sorry but does anyone know if an audiowerk 8
soundcard will work in a mac g4 running osX please?

best

ben 


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
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From ???@??? Sat Nov 18 06:06:34 2006
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Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 00:06:23 -0600
From: Rod Stasick <xxx@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [microsound] Tactical sound garden
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Worth watching the video...

http://www.tacticalsoundgarden.net/#


Given the ubiquity of mobile devices and wireless networks, and their  
proliferation throughout increasingly diverse and sometimes  
unexpected urban sites, what opportunities - and dilemmas - emerge  
for the design of public space in contemporary cities?

The Tactical Sound Garden [TSG] Toolkit is an open source software  
platform for cultivating public "sound gardens" within contemporary  
cities. It draws on the culture of urban community gardening to posit  
a participatory environment where new spatial practices for social  
interaction within technologically mediated environments can be  
explored and evaluated. Addressing the impact of mobile audio devices  
like the iPod, the project examines gradations of privacy and  
publicity within contemporary public space.

The Toolkit enables anyone living within dense 802.11 wireless (WiFi)  
"hot zones" to install a "sound garden" for public use. Using a WiFi  
enabled mobile device (PDA, laptop, mobile phone), participants  
"plant" sounds within a positional audio environment. These plantings  
are mapped onto the coordinates of a physical location by a 3D audio  
engine common to gaming environments - overlaying a publicly  
constructed soundscape onto a specific urban space. Wearing  
headphones connected to a WiFi enabled device, participants drift  
though virtual sound gardens as they move throughout the city.




Rod

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From ???@??? Fri Nov 17 06:07:56 2006
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Subject: Re: [microsound] toronto: I/o friday november 17th
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i'm there.

but unfortunately you'll suffer the kim casone wrath of the whole  
(ridiculous) 'posting on the microsound list and not the microsound- 
announce list...'

g.


On 16-Nov-06, at 9:49 PM, michael trommer wrote:

> Hey y'all...
>
> i/o media...aboveground.
> Come get your geek on.
>
> friday november 17th, 9-11pm
> interaccess electronic media arts centre
> 9 ossington ave. (just north of queen)
>
> ...pay what you can.
>
> Beer: $3
>
> i/o media...an electronic audiovisual improvisation project featuring:
>
> Rob Cruickshank
> Rob King
> Kristin Trethewey
> Michael Trommer
> David McCallum
> Oliver Heinrich
> Roxanne Luchak
> VJ Nokami
> Sarah Mooney
> Brendan Wypich
>
>
>
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From ???@??? Fri Nov 17 02:52:37 2006
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:49:54 -0500
From: michael trommer <xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: [microsound] toronto: I/o friday november 17th
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Hey y'all...

i/o media...aboveground.
Come get your geek on.

friday november 17th, 9-11pm
interaccess electronic media arts centre
9 ossington ave. (just north of queen)

....pay what you can.

Beer: $3

i/o media...an electronic audiovisual improvisation project featuring:

Rob Cruickshank
Rob King
Kristin Trethewey
Michael Trommer
David McCallum
Oliver Heinrich
Roxanne Luchak
VJ Nokami
Sarah Mooney
Brendan Wypich



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From ???@??? Wed Nov 15 12:04:11 2006
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From: jigen san <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] re: a good mobile field sound recorder?
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nice info about it  on this page. [im after the korg mr 1]

http://www.unipv.it/cibra/edu_equipment_uk.html#reco

hope it helps.


jigen


On 13 Nov 2006, at 14:38, triPhaze | Marek Brandt wrote:

> ...
>
> what else is out there right now?
>> g.
>
>
> Hello.
> when its not too late, check for equipment
> this link:
> http://soundtransit.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2
> its a topic about find  web sites to help
> people choose an inexpensive field recorder
>
> greetings.
> Marek
>
> -- 
>  adventures in contemporary  art & music & video
>
> .............. www.privatelektro.de .............................
>
> ............... www.marek-brandt.de ...........................
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 


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what about bicycle motor crossing ?  



--- Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx> wrote:

> what about cross-dressing?
> 
> On 14-Nov-06, at 3:58 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:
> 
> > all calls for projects, job opportunities,
> promotional postings etc  
> > etc belong on the microsound announce list – not
> this one!
> > please read the microsound web page!:
> >
> >> you can also subscribe to the microsound-announce
> list that holds  
> >> show announcements, music releases, podcasts and
> anything that's  
> >> not aesthetic discussion.
> >
> >
> > AND NO CROSS-POSTING!!
> >
> >
>
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> xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> 
> 
>
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> xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org
> 
> 



 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Cheap talk?
Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
http://voice.yahoo.com

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From ???@??? Tue Nov 14 21:17:00 2006
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what about cross-dressing?

On 14-Nov-06, at 3:58 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:

> all calls for projects, job opportunities, promotional postings etc  
> etc belong on the microsound announce list – not this one!
> please read the microsound web page!:
>
>> you can also subscribe to the microsound-announce list that holds  
>> show announcements, music releases, podcasts and anything that's  
>> not aesthetic discussion.
>
>
> AND NO CROSS-POSTING!!
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> website: http://www.microsound.org


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From ???@??? Tue Nov 14 20:58:55 2006
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all calls for projects, job opportunities, promotional postings etc  
etc belong on the microsound announce list – not this one!
please read the microsound web page!:

> you can also subscribe to the microsound-announce list that holds  
> show announcements, music releases, podcasts and anything that's  
> not aesthetic discussion.


AND NO CROSS-POSTING!!

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From ???@??? Tue Nov 14 20:39:23 2006
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hi

On 11/14/06, xxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> Anyway Time Warner represent all that is bad in America.

i thought that was GWB ...

-- 
\js  [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]

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To: xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx, xxxxxxx.xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx,
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--Boundary_(ID_pgT2Tjvx4XRd6xEiOyXJWQ)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Please use _xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx_ (mailto:xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xx.xx) 
For the time being because, we are going to change providers, since AOL  give 
us such rubbish service on dial up (it's taken all night to get  online) and 
when we go Broadband we are not using them again!!!. 
Anyway Time Warner represent all that is bad in America.
 
Cheers Chrisb
--Boundary_(ID_pgT2Tjvx4XRd6xEiOyXJWQ)--

From ???@??? Tue Nov 14 01:32:24 2006
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this looks like one of those paradoxes generated by the assumptions
researchers import from one scale of analysis into another--more an
epistemological problem than anything else.  on the order of the problems
that henri atlan takes apart in his "from enlightenment to enlightenment"
book.  the problem would be dragging conceptions of pattern from one
register into another, or taking the experience patterned at the level of
conscious operations and applying them unwittingly (as a frame assumption)
to thinking about how other levels of brain activity unfold--which would be
like applying propositional logic to all forms of patterning organized via
language--it makes some sense that one would do it, but it also would just
as obviously create problems insofar as you would only find what you were
looking for.

have a look at the work of fransisco varela sometime for thinking about how
brain activity works.
it seems that his model would have generated fewer "paradoxes"...

stephen
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On Mon, 13 Nov 2006, Kim Cascone wrote:

> http://www.physorg.com/news82389042.html
*snip*

What's next might be to use this Bayesian model to accomplish exactly what 
every botnet is straining at - to sneak suggestion past the outer edge. I 
don't know how forward I look to inescapable advertisement where it's 
mathematicians designing the most effective information.


-- 
Dear Patron Saint,
your lips are lopsided
www.devo.com/exegene

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> Battery can just be charged via USB i think
this is not the case, there's an ac adaptor included, but the battery  
is propietary...
>


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http://www.physorg.com/news82389042.html

>  Researchers at the University of Rochester may have answered one  
> of neuroscience's most vexing questions—how can it be that our  
> neurons, which are responsible for our crystal-clear thoughts, seem  
> to fire in utterly random ways?
>
--Boundary_(ID_MZenx6QRPg2l6wTEcCcCUQ)--

From ???@??? Mon Nov 13 22:40:48 2006
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great stuff aaron! i also might add that i've always really enjoyed  
your website and your work. it has really been inspirational:-)

all the best

graham


On 13-Nov-06, at 4:18 PM, Aaron Ximm wrote:

> Fwiw I have extensive advice about this topic up here:
>
>   http://www.quietamerican.org/links.html
>
> To the relief of many I won't once again recap what I write there,  
> other
> than to suggest that HiMD is still a very attractive option --  
> depending
> on your neeeds.
>
>  aaron
>
>   xxxxx@xxxx.xxx
>   http://www.quietamerican.org
>
>   |  quod omne animal post   |
>   |  cogitum est triste...   |
>
>
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From ???@??? Mon Nov 13 21:18:55 2006
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Fwiw I have extensive advice about this topic up here:

  http://www.quietamerican.org/links.html

To the relief of many I won't once again recap what I write there, other
than to suggest that HiMD is still a very attractive option -- depending
on your neeeds.

 aaron

  xxxxx@xxxx.xxx
  http://www.quietamerican.org

  |  quod omne animal post   |
  |  cogitum est triste...   |


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From ???@??? Mon Nov 13 21:17:13 2006
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ok, I made a test with some waterdrops falling into a pot of water and I must 
admit, that the only satisfying results could be achieved with 96kHz/24bit, and there
I got very good not noisy recordings.
but - at 44,1kHz and  48kHz there was a slight audible high tone (easy to filter out, but nasty anyhow) 
so I have learned to do all silent/subtle recordingsin 96kHz/24bit (glad I did this test), but then
I can achieve really satisfying results (but the recording time is cutted down) I have a 1GB card, so it´s not
so bad (about 33 minutes recording time), as I don´t intend to sit hours in the dark forrest anywhere.
hope my little test could help anybody.
cheers
sascha

> 
> Von: "Kyle Klipowicz" <xxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
> Datum: 2006/11/13 Mo PM 04:58:23 CET
> An: microsound <xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Betreff: Re: [microsound] re: a good mobile field sound recorder?
> 
> Please run these tests if you can, and report back to the list if you'd be
> so kind.  I've read some very mixed reviews about this unit, which could be
> a godsend if the problems posted in reviews are spurious ones!  (see
> http://www.samedaymusic.com/productreview--ZOMH4)
> 
> Are there any other recommendations?
> 
> ~Kyle
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/13/06, sascha. renner <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxx.xx> wrote:
> >
> > I have the ZOOM H4 now for about 3 weeks and I really like it.
> > It is the cheapest of all flash recorders, has the XLR inputs with
> > phantompower you need and
> > the quality is ok for me. You can carry it always around with you as it is
> > little enough and the mics are not too bad I think (I have to test them in
> > a critical situation, like low volume
> > source material, to find out if the amps are noisy or not; till now I
> > could not detect any noise coming from the
> > amps but I recorded not very quiet things).
> > I don´t think you do anything wrong in purchasing the H4, but if you are
> > interested, I try to record some low volume material to find out more about
> > the mic-amps (I could even give you a link to the results if it helps)
> > cheers
> > sascha
> >
> > >
> > > Von: triPhaze | Marek Brandt <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xx>
> > > Datum: 2006/11/13 Mo PM 03:38:28 CET
> > > An: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > > Betreff: [microsound] re: a good mobile field sound recorder?
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > what else is out there right now?
> > > >
> > > > g.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > http://www.sascha-neudeck.com
> > http://myspace.com/saschaneudeck
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > website: http://www.microsound.org
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> http://theradioproject.com
> http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
> 
> (((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())())))
> (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((())))
> ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________
> _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______
> ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
> 
> 

http://www.sascha-neudeck.com
http://myspace.com/saschaneudeck


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From: Owen Green <xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] re: a good mobile field sound recorder?
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Hi Graham,

These little boxes tend only to provide what is called 'plug in power', 
which delivers 9 or 15V (or something like that) suitable for little 
electrets, but obviously no help for studio mics that expect 48v, 
leaving you needing an additional pre-amp / phantom supply.

-- 
Owen

Graham Miller wrote:
> i think i'm leaning toward that m-audio box... what's the deal with 
> those 1/4 inch mic inputs though that are supposed to provide phantom 
> power? do you just use some kind of converter pin to XLRs?
> 



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Subject: Re: [microsound] T-Shirt as wearable air guitar interface
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On Nov 13, 2006, at 2:36 PM, Eloy Anzola wrote:

> Here's the site with video examples:
> http://www.csiro.au/csiro/content/standard/ps29y,,.html
>
> Here's the BBC article:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6143118.stm
>
>
> cheers,
>
> Eloy

whew, good to know you still look like an idiot playing it!
cheers
bruce

bruce tovsky
www.skeletonhome.com

"Reality is whatever refuses to go away when I stop believing in it.."
Philip K. Dick

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Here's the site with video examples:
http://www.csiro.au/csiro/content/standard/ps29y,,.html
 
Here's the BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6143118.stm
 
 
cheers,
 
Eloy
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From ???@??? Mon Nov 13 17:10:54 2006
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i highly recommend the edirol r-09...love mine...quick and simple, and the built-in mics actually sound great.
> 
> From: triPhaze | Marek Brandt <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xx>
> Date: 2006/11/13 Mon AM 09:38:28 EST
> To: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> Subject: [microsound] re: a good mobile field sound recorder?
> 
> ...
> 
> what else is out there right now?
> > 
> > g.
> 
> 
> Hello.
> when its not too late, check for equipment
> this link:
> http://soundtransit.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2
> its a topic about find  web sites to help
> people choose an inexpensive field recorder
> 
> greetings.
> Marek
> 
> -- 
>   adventures in contemporary  art & music & video
> 
> .............. www.privatelektro.de .............................
> 
> ............... www.marek-brandt.de ...........................
> 
> 
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From ???@??? Mon Nov 13 17:22:58 2006
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Hi Graham,

A friend of mine reported the phantom power being definitely lower than 
48V, so you might double-check your mic's specs.
Other disadvantages:
Long startup time (12 secs)
Battery can just be charged via USB i think

PS: the jacks are stereo jacks, thus providing the same connection as 
XLRs, but you have to get/make an adapter cable.

lg,P

Graham Miller wrote:
> i think i'm leaning toward that m-audio box... what's the deal with  
> those 1/4 inch mic inputs though that are supposed to provide phantom  
> power? do you just use some kind of converter pin to XLRs?
> 
> g.
> 
> On 13-Nov-06, at 10:37 AM, sascha.renner wrote:
> 
>> I have the ZOOM H4 now for about 3 weeks and I really like it.
>> It is the cheapest of all flash recorders, has the XLR inputs with  
>> phantompower you need and
>> the quality is ok for me. You can carry it always around with you  as 
>> it is
>> little enough and the mics are not too bad I think (I have to test  
>> them in a critical situation, like low volume
>> source material, to find out if the amps are noisy or not; till now  I 
>> could not detect any noise coming from the
>> amps but I recorded not very quiet things).
>> I don´t think you do anything wrong in purchasing the H4, but if  you 
>> are interested, I try to record some low volume material to  find out 
>> more about the mic-amps (I could even give you a link to  the results 
>> if it helps)
>> cheers
>> sascha
>>
>>>
>>> Von: triPhaze | Marek Brandt <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xx>
>>> Datum: 2006/11/13 Mo PM 03:38:28 CET
>>> An: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>>> Betreff: [microsound] re: a good mobile field sound recorder?
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> what else is out there right now?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> g.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.sascha-neudeck.com
>> http://myspace.com/saschaneudeck
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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> 
> 
> 
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From ???@??? Mon Nov 13 17:16:54 2006
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From: Graham Miller <xxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: [microsound] re: a good mobile field sound recorder?
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i think i'm leaning toward that m-audio box... what's the deal with  
those 1/4 inch mic inputs though that are supposed to provide phantom  
power? do you just use some kind of converter pin to XLRs?

g.

On 13-Nov-06, at 10:37 AM, sascha.renner wrote:

> I have the ZOOM H4 now for about 3 weeks and I really like it.
> It is the cheapest of all flash recorders, has the XLR inputs with  
> phantompower you need and
> the quality is ok for me. You can carry it always around with you  
> as it is
> little enough and the mics are not too bad I think (I have to test  
> them in a critical situation, like low volume
> source material, to find out if the amps are noisy or not; till now  
> I could not detect any noise coming from the
> amps but I recorded not very quiet things).
> I don´t think you do anything wrong in purchasing the H4, but if  
> you are interested, I try to record some low volume material to  
> find out more about the mic-amps (I could even give you a link to  
> the results if it helps)
> cheers
> sascha
>
>>
>> Von: triPhaze | Marek Brandt <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xx>
>> Datum: 2006/11/13 Mo PM 03:38:28 CET
>> An: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> Betreff: [microsound] re: a good mobile field sound recorder?
>>
>> ...
>>
>> what else is out there right now?
>>>
>>> g.
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.sascha-neudeck.com
> http://myspace.com/saschaneudeck
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: xxxxxxxxxx-xxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
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Please run these tests if you can, and report back to the list if you'd be
so kind.  I've read some very mixed reviews about this unit, which could be
a godsend if the problems posted in reviews are spurious ones!  (see
http://www.samedaymusic.com/productreview--ZOMH4)

Are there any other recommendations?

~Kyle



On 11/13/06, sascha. renner <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxx.xx> wrote:
>
> I have the ZOOM H4 now for about 3 weeks and I really like it.
> It is the cheapest of all flash recorders, has the XLR inputs with
> phantompower you need and
> the quality is ok for me. You can carry it always around with you as it is
> little enough and the mics are not too bad I think (I have to test them in
> a critical situation, like low volume
> source material, to find out if the amps are noisy or not; till now I
> could not detect any noise coming from the
> amps but I recorded not very quiet things).
> I don´t think you do anything wrong in purchasing the H4, but if you are
> interested, I try to record some low volume material to find out more about
> the mic-amps (I could even give you a link to the results if it helps)
> cheers
> sascha
>
> >
> > Von: triPhaze | Marek Brandt <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xx>
> > Datum: 2006/11/13 Mo PM 03:38:28 CET
> > An: xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
> > Betreff: [microsound] re: a good mobile field sound recorder?
> >
> > ...
> >
> > what else is out there right now?
> > >
> > > g.
> >
> >
>
>
> http://www.sascha-neudeck.com
> http://myspace.com/saschaneudeck
>
>
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Subject: Re: [microsound] re: a good mobile field sound recorder?
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