Re: [AH] TR 707 repair

From Kenneth Balys
Sent Fri, Mar 7th 2014, 02:43

If you have already flipped the RAM's then you don't need to flip the 
-CS. Thats the same thing.

Ok, so I am confounded again.

Shunting IC16 pin 8 to 9 basically removes that gate from the equation. 
That is kind of bad news.

On 07.03.14 1:40 AM, luke aldred wrote:
>
> Sorry sent this one just to you Kenny, so I am re-sending to the list.
>
> So does that mean that only one RAM should have CS present at one time? I didn't bridge the CS lines, but I bridged where the CS comes into IC16 (pin9) and the output of IC16 (pin8). These feed IC14.
> I believe that the RAM is used for more than just pattern storage in the 707. The fact that it cannot boot up without operating RAM would suggest this? The CPU is using it for something.
> I have already socketed both RAM chips, and tried brand newies in both positions. No good. So far the only way I've got it to boot is by that bridge. This is why I thought that maybe something is holding that output high when actually it should be sending data to the RAM CS input.
> Flipping the CS data is an interesting idea... Will give that a try when I can.
> Luke
>
>
>
>> Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:36:40 +0000
>> From: kenny@beatkamp.com
>> To: laproductions@live.com.au
>> CC: analogue@hyperreal.org
>> Subject: Re: [AH] TR 707 repair
>>
>>
>> Ok, I looked at the data sheet for the Hitachi 6303X CPU and it does
>> have 3/4 page of RAM on chip (192 bytes) but that does not mean the
>> Roland engineers didn't code some low level dependency into the RAMs.
>>
>> The -RD and -WR lines from the CPU go straight to the 2 RAMS and the
>> program ROM unbuffered so there is nothing to get in the way there.
>>
>> When the machine crashes do you still see -RD -WR activity? Or is the
>> CPU just catatonic? You can also check the address lines and/or data
>> lines. The CPU always needs to be doing something so if its not locked
>> up, the evidence will be on these external points.
>>
>> Its looking like a bad RAM but I really am hesitant to advise you to
>> start popping hard to get CMOS RAMS without a lot more evidence. They
>> are, far and away, the most ESD sensitive device in your 707.
>>
>> PS: thanks for the nicer schematics
>>
>> On 07.03.14 1:15 AM, Kenny Balys wrote:
>>>
>>> If the machine came up enough to do anything at all with the two -CS
>>> lines bridged, then your CPU is most likely fine. Same with the ROM.
>>>
>>> (most likely)
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07.03.14 12:48 AM, luke aldred wrote:
>>>> Hey Kenny,
>>>> appreciate your input. HAhah I was a bit confused when you said low, I
>>>> thought maybe this was the issue after all! But yes the reset line
>>>> goes high and stays high, around 5V so I think it is ok. I get the
>>>> feeling it is something a bit more complex as I have been
>>>> troubleshooting it for a good few hours already.
>>>>
>>>> If you have a look through the earlier posts, I said how the CS input
>>>> on pin 18 of IC14, Static RAM, is staying high on power up. It is
>>>> around 4.5V, looks the same as the "BU" voltage which powers IC16.
>>>> Contrary to static RAM IC15 which is receiving the chip select data.
>>>> Would this be normal for only one to receive it at any given time? The
>>>> strange thing is that when I bridged pin 8 and 9 of IC16, which is the
>>>> output for the CS data, the unit powered up and I could trigger sounds
>>>> etc, but could not write patterns and it was still pretty glitchy.
>>>> however IC16, and 11 are both OK as I have swapped them out.
>>>> What else could cause the output of IC16, pin 8, to be held high when
>>>> it should be outputting data??  This is what brings me to the P-ROM or
>>>> CPU but as I said my understanding is not great.
>>>> Cheers,Luke
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 00:05:15 +0000
>>>>> From: kenny@beatkamp.com
>>>>> To: laproductions@live.com.au
>>>>> CC: lhammond@uvic.ca; wackyvorlon@me.com; analogue@hyperreal.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AH] TR 707 repair
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Duh! I mean is the Reset line stable and high after power up?
>>>>>
>>>>> (why does my brain always take off right when I need it?)
>>>>>
>>>>> On 06.03.14 11:58 PM, Kenny Balys wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reset line is held low by the "power good" circuit until it hits
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> operational threshold. This is done so the CPU does not kick off during
>>>>>> the chaos of power on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reset line is NAND'd to the -CS (chip select) of the two static
>>>>>> RAMs
>>>>>> as they are battery backed and contain your pattern data. So you do not
>>>>>> want random stuff happening. The -RESET prevents anything from getting
>>>>>> to the RAM chips.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know the pinout of the 707 cartridge but the -RESET to the
>>>>>> buffer IC7 is going to be protecting something as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 138 Mux just takes a 3 bit number on one side and activates the
>>>>>> correct line on the other (0 to 7) when the 3 enable lines are
>>>>>> SET/CLR/CLR
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is your reset line stable and low after power up?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 06.03.14 11:15 PM, luke aldred wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Lorne,
>>>>>>> I don't know much about these CPU circuits, but I assumed the reset
>>>>>>> signal here turned on the chip select data outputs from IC16 so that
>>>>>>> RAM can be written only after reset signal. Not sure though as I say.
>>>>>>> Thanks again
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: lhammond@uvic.ca
>>>>>>> To: wackyvorlon@me.com; laproductions@live.com.au
>>>>>>> CC: analogue@hyperreal.org
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [AH] TR 707 repair
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:57:38 -0800
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul:  I noticed this off the block diagram, any thoughts on
>>>>>>> which pin for the other resets?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the block
>>>>>>> diagram shows the reset circuit (Q4, Q5) goes to the cpu IC5, the
>>>>>>> address
>>>>>>> decoder IC 16, and Buffer IC7.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think its
>>>>>>> in your reset circuit, attached page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any thoughts on the reset pins for teh other ICs?  Or why they
>>>>>>> reset, unless its to sync them all when the voltage is correct.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lorne
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Paul Anderson [mailto:wackyvorlon@me.com]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent: March-06-14 12:18 AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To: luke aldred
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cc: Lorne Hammond; analogue@hyperreal.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AH] TR 707 repair
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It looks like IC11 is a de multiplexer. Here is the data
>>>>>>> sheet:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/datasheetsmain/Datasheets-110/DSAP002952.pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Look at pins 4,5, and 6. If 6 is low, or 4 or 5 are high,
>>>>>>> then all outputs are pushed high. Including pin 13 which feeds IC16
>>>>>>> via IC12.
>>>>>>> The gate on IC12 is configured as an inverter. A high from IC11 pin 13
>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>> low at IC16, holding the output low without regard for the inputs to
>>>>>>> IC11. I'd
>>>>>>> say something is making one of those three pins on IC11 sit at an
>>>>>>> inappropriate
>>>>>>> level.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul Anderson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Facilities Manager
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hackforge
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 6, 2014, at 3:12 AM, luke aldred <laproductions@live.com.au>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Lorne,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks again. I can't tell on which pin the reset signal should
>>>>>>> be on IC7, but in all other locations it is good. IC7 is a buffer
>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>> Cartridge storage, so would it even make a difference? I have the
>>>>>>> cartridge
>>>>>>> ribbon unplugged anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for Kenneth Bayes notes, I was noticing small pulses on
>>>>>>> ground connection, though they are less than 100mv so I wasn't
>>>>>>> worried. Would
>>>>>>> this cause dramas?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul, thank you for your input. Pin 10 is connected directly to
>>>>>>> pin 4, this is the reset signal. Pin 11 is connected to Pin 3, and pin
>>>>>>> 12.
>>>>>>> These are fed by an output from IC11. Address data of some sort?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Luke
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: lhammond@uvic.ca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To: laproductions@live.com.au; analogue@hyperreal.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [AH] TR 707 repair
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:40:32 -0800
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't know the machine but I do know the 909 has a reset that
>>>>>>> stays low and off until there is 5V stable top prevent scrambled
>>>>>>> memory.
>>>>>>> So you can have the right voltage at teh power supply but if you reset
>>>>>>> circuit
>>>>>>> has a broken trace or dead transistor (on the 909 that is on the PS
>>>>>>> pcb) it
>>>>>>> will not allow the cpu to start up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> lorne
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> om: luke aldred [mailto:laproductions@live.com.au]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent: March-05-14 10:00 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To: analogue@hyperreal.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: [AH] TR 707 repair
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a
>>>>>>> TR-707 here which I'm repairing. It does not power boot up. Power
>>>>>>> supply
>>>>>>> voltages etc are all good, and scoping the CPU I can see data on the
>>>>>>> address
>>>>>>> and data buses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When scoping
>>>>>>> around the RAM chips, I found that the Chip Select pin (pin 18) for
>>>>>>> RAM 1,
>>>>>>> IC14, is sitting on between 4.5-5V. When I look at the same pin on
>>>>>>> IC13 I can
>>>>>>> see the chip select data flowing. Now I assumed that the chip address
>>>>>>> IC 16 may
>>>>>>> be faulty, so I swapped it out to no avail. Strangely I then noticed
>>>>>>> when I
>>>>>>> bridged pins 8 and 9 on IC16 (TC40H010) the unit fired up for the
>>>>>>> first time.
>>>>>>> It was mostly functioning, I could hear sounds, swap patterns etc
>>>>>>> though it
>>>>>>> seems I could not write any patterns and it was still a bit glitchy in
>>>>>>> general.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone
>>>>>>> got any ideas what else this may be? I have tried new RAM in both
>>>>>>> positions to
>>>>>>> no effect, have also tried a new IC11. I wonder if it could be the
>>>>>>> program ROM
>>>>>>> or CPU error?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>